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Are we watching the extinction of a breed?

I spoke to my vet here and in my part of the world (Walvis Bay Namibia) he feels GSDS are first when it comes to genetic health problems and short lives, then great danes and Boerboels (yes Boerboels are super popular here and inbred AF) then probably ridgebacks.

I know Dobes are not a healthy breed and I have watched the Doccies and read the reports its very very sad indeed. DCM is a huge issue in the breed. I wish that the kennel unions and registration bodies as well as breed clubs placed more emphasis on health and less emphasis on show titles, reward breeders for health tested and long lived lines perhaps. The problem for me lies at the foot of the clubs and the breeders. Owners are last in line when it comes to the breeds overall health. BYB are a huge problem and I wish there were stricter rules and regulations in place but failing that we will probably see the demise of more and more breeds as this goes on. We can blame the dog food, the treats, the wifi signals but when you inbreed that heavily for that long you are going to have genetic problems that the best food and the best supplements just can't fix.
 
THIS IS EXACTLY what I tried to defend in another thread here, and I was threatened with a ban as they deemed me too argumentative when all I care about is producing HEALTHY dogs. They think just being a reputable breeder will fix the problem. NOTHING fixes inbreeding ad infinitum!
 
THIS IS EXACTLY what I tried to defend in another thread here, and I was threatened with a ban as they deemed me too argumentative when all I care about is producing HEALTHY dogs. They think just being a reputable breeder will fix the problem. NOTHING fixes inbreeding ad infinitum!



I think the problem is terminology. I know of few breeders that do any inbreeding. Inbreeding is the reproduction of offspring from the mating of 2 closely related dogs, in this case. I'm not sure that is what you are talking about. Weren't you refering to mixing breeds to create a breed?
 
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I think the problem is terminology. I know of few breeders that do any inbreeding. Inbreeding is the reproduction of offspring from the mating of 2 closely related dogs, in this case. I'm not sure that is what you are talking about. Weren;t you redering to mixing breeds to create a breed?


Actually, that's the term when applied to humans. Any severe endogamy, or mating into the breed, group, results in the same thing: a reduced gene pool. Eventually, everyone gets more and more genetically closer thus increasing incidence of endemic hereditary conditions and the occurrence of new ones by bringing recessive genes to the fore at some point.
 
Are you suggesting that there should be no breeds?
May I suggest in the most respectful manner that you read the actual article posted here originally and the suggestions already made instead of having us reiterate what was already said?

The suggestion was that the genetic pool of a breed must from time to time be broadened. It makes perfect biological sense. Breeding the same lines over and over again, creates problems.

'Responsible breeding' doesn't solve the problem. It kicks the can down the road. You always meet it so long as you remain on the same path.
 
I did. I asked you a question otherwise.

And for the third time, I repeat: Breeds are fine. But the limited genetic pool from which we are currently drawing is running dry. A solution would be to allow dogs that don't meet every single AKC requirement and standard to breed provided they are genetically tested and found to be sound. Another thing that makes sense for the long term survival of the breed is to introduce crossbreed blood every couple of generations (again, only genetically healthy animals) in order to diversify the gene pool.

This is what the report also suggests. I hope it is now clear where I stand on the subject.
 
I think the problem is terminology. I know of few breeders that do any inbreeding. Inbreeding is the reproduction of offspring from the mating of 2 closely related dogs, in this case. I'm not sure that is what you are talking about. Weren't you refering to mixing breeds to create a breed?
No, actually I was not. I do not want to create a breed. I want to sort the genetic mess inherent in the current closely related lines. I want the Doberman to survive. Please read through all my posts. I have been deliberately explanatory at length.
 
And for the third time, I repeat: Breeds are fine. But the limited genetic pool from which we are currently drawing is running dry. A solution would be to allow dogs that don't meet every single AKC requirement and standard to breed provided they are genetically tested and found to be sound. Another thing that makes sense for the long term survival of the breed is to introduce crossbreed blood every couple of generations (again, only genetically healthy animals) in order to diversify the gene pool.

This is what the report also suggests. I hope it is now clear where I stand on the subject.

Hi! And welcome from NY! :ntmy:

I have read through both the threads, [in the other, starting from your initial response] and I have to say, in weeding through the back and forth, I do see where you are going with this. It is very interesting and I do agree with what you and the above article are saying. I don't doubt that others agree as well. I also personally don't particularly care about the show ring and titles and whatnot. I understand that it is seen as a way for breeders to "prove fitness" for breeding - in effect taking on the "natural selection" process from nature, as humans have determined what each breed's "purpose" and "look" should be, so with dogs now, it is the "human selection process." As such, many diverse and wonderful breeds have been developed [and in my opinion some that shouldn't have]. I also do not find titles etc as meaningful as health and longevity. In choosing my breeder, didn't care how many or how few titles her dogs had, and didn't play any part in my decision. I just look at the winning GSDs of today and it sickens me. Even my Tank - bred in the Czech Republic purely for working purposes isn't immune.. He luckily isn't nearly as deformed as many others, but may have to retire in the next year due to weakening in his back and hind quarters - he is only 8.5!!

My grandfather was a master breeder of working Walker Foxhounds and Beagles. [My father also bred pigeons on his own as a hobby growing up!] He and my father raised, trained, and meticulously bred for purpose - and people from all over the south came to him for dogs purely from word of mouth as the Internet was not around in those days! He was not involved in showing and whatnot but rather bred his dogs based on their ability to work and perform, health and temperament. He was very keenly observant of the traits he wanted/didn't want in his dogs and weeded out the unfit.
[Btw @Rits - I have to thank you for reopening my eyes about the fundamentals of breeding (RE: the carrier to carrier example in another thread a while back). It really helped me to break out of that box I had closed myself into]

Anyway, I do see and understand your point and in a way I don't see it as much different than what any breed founder was trying to do originally. And as long as it is done carefully, thoughtfully by someone with the betterment of the breed in their heart and mind [and not dollar bills], I would indeed be very interested and curious in the process and the final product of a healthier, improved Doberman Pinscher.

On a side note- When I first read through the start of this cross-thread discussion I think the point your message may have initially gotten lost as the first post in the other thread may have come across as if you were offended and writing from a defensive mindset. I gathered from reading that you found the term "mutt" offensive as it can be said as a way that implies that they are some how less than or not as good as a "purebred," which I can understand. However, I do not think most people, and certainly most of those involved in this discussion meant it in a derogatory way, I think it is just the commonplace term we all know for dog with a diverse genetic background. [Holy Crap.. Am I on the PC Canine Train? :p]
That said, I reread your posts from the perspective of initiating thought-provoking discussion and I can see that it from that perspective now as well. All in all, I think as @Tropicalbri's said this may have been a miscommunication/miss understanding [you did say that right Bri? I really don't want to search through the chaos to check:blush-alt:].
I find it harder to convey tone in writing without emojis or flowery words! :p I also think this being a breed specific forum, even though it's a friendly one, there will naturally be more push-back about something that could potentially be harmful for that which we all here love...
Anyway, hope I haven't offended!
 
@Prushanks

Thank you for your response. Whether we like to admit it or not, there is often in many people (not meant personally for people here I have not had the chance to meet) a sense of haughtiness and arrogance, dare I say, vanity in owning and trading in 'breeds'. It is a mentality that creeps up on one without even realizing it.

The beauty pageant that many of these dog shows have become has fostered that mentality too. For many, their dogs are status symbols. And unfortunately many times, the word 'mutt' is not used as neutrally as you think. I did not take offense at the term personally. But I am opposed to the attitudes I have often encountered when the word was used to disparage a non purebred dog. As the study published here shows, we may need those dogs to save our breed after all.

So I am calling for a change in the mindset of breeders. Not only champion lines that adhere to conforming to AKC standards should be bred exclusively. It is simply not healthy. I am glad you understand my point. I am an owner, nay FATHER of Dobermans. I care about the breed just like everyone else here. But our 'golden standards' are, whether we like it or not, currently affecting the breed in the most negative of ways. The sanctity of those standards must be challenged and reviewed from time to time.

Let's be honest, the first Dobermans did not look much like the American Dobermans alive today, so we HAVE been doing it already. We have been altering them for generations but we have been doing so in ways that are harmful, even with the best intentions in mind. Facts cannot be debated against. They should be understood irrespective of what our ego dictates.
 
I keep up with a Doberman out-cross project where members are trying to save the breed by bringing in new genetic material into the breed. Of coarse, they are not sanctioned by anyone important in the dog world, but someone has to try. The goal is to out-cross to a healthy breed, and then breed back to the Doberman standard for 3 generations, thereby adding in the new genome to the breed.

If AKC would just open the stud books we could make great progress, but that's not going to happen any time soon.

From all the reading I have done about this issue, and I have read a lot, the Doberman could be gone from the world stage in less than 50 years - probably sooner if something is not done. Just another 20 years of breeding popular Sires and Dams is going to escalate this issue beyond repair - and it is happening in all popular breeds.
 
Thank you Fred so much for this thread. My son purchased 2 Dobermans from an online national breeding company Greenfield *******, I'll try to be brief, they were born 4 weeks apart, same fathers. King came first, the breeders for an additional fee cropped his ears. Big mistake! When we picked him up there were only 7-8 stitches per ear and the one had to be fixed at the ER Vet hospital ($1,200) more we didn't expect. Our Kacie born 12/21/16, was beautiful as well and WE had her ears cropped by a real surgeon and everything went fine. I noticed Kacie would breathe extra hard at times for no reason. The vet said she was fine. I never new of this DCM or I would have thoroughly had them check both their hearts. I fell in love with both of these dogs my son I kept king with him in case he stayed with me at my home with my husband and I. She slept with me she went everywhere with me she was my best friend my everything . On The morning of April 12 of this year I just 14 weeks old during her morning nap I went to wake her up and she was going. You can only imagine my horror my distraught and my grief to this very day I blame myself for not doing the research prior, because I asked my son about their health history he showed me on the breeders website the two Doberman disorders but never published and to this day still will not publish DCM the number one killer. I have a swab test going out for king at the North Carolina University of veterinary medicine for the two mutation genes. I know king of test positive for one of them because of Kacie. Needless to say the company in the breeders refused to return my calls and owner of the company has actually disconnected his cell phone. These Amish families don't care what they are putting families through, the pain they put our family through and others from her litter, now and in the future and there's nothing anyone can do the stop them?? I haven't slept in my room since she died, I wear her little collar around my wrist everyday. Not one hour goes by I don't grieve for her. She was a baby! I can't even see this screen through tears.....God bless everyone who has suffered as I have and will forever.

(or, Why are we focused on consequence instead of cause?)
6/3/2016
By Carol Beuchat PhD

When I sat down at my desk this morning ready to tackle the tasks of the day, I did my usual quick scroll through my Facebook timeline. Right away, I ran into this video of a game of fetch with a Doberman. You need to watch this to the end.
Then just a few posts down there was this.

View attachment 62988

I don't know these dogs and I don't know these people, but my heart breaks for them. I've set aside what I planned to do today to tell you what I think about this.

The dogs we love are dying. Biologists can tell you why this is happening, and in fact even animal breeders 100 years ago could have told you why this is happening. I've written dozens of blog posts on the ICB website explaining why this is happening.

Inbreeding affects health. At low levels of inbreeding, say 5% to 10%, there are effects on fertility, litter size, puppy mortality, and "vigor". There are also increases in the number of genetic disorders. The higher the level of inbreeding, the more negative the effects.

This is not folklore. This is fundamental, basic genetics. Inbreeding increases the expression of genetic disorders and has a negative effect on health in general. These are facts. If somebody is trying to convince you otherwise, you need to find a different mentor.

Inbreeding is necessary to fix type and improve consistency in domestic animals. This is how the breeds were created. These benefits can be appreciated at levels of inbreeding less than 10%.

Among purebred, recognized dog breeds, type was fixed long ago. The Dobermans above might not win in the ring, but they are recognizably Dobermans.

Here is the elephant in the room. Our dogs are dying of inbreeding. Decades of inbreeding in a quest for the ever more perfect dog has resulted in the loss of genes that are essential to life. However perfect and beautiful the dogs might be on the outside, on the inside they are broken.

What are we doing about this? We seem to be doing a lot. There are research studies, DNA tests, health seminars, disorder-specific Facebook groups, and so on.

But our dogs are dying of inbreeding. None of the things we are doing will cure inbreeding. Scientists can't cure inbreeding. Inbreeding must be cured by breeders.

I founded ICB four years ago because there was an increasing number of research papers being published about the negative effects of inbreeding on the health of dogs, but breeders didn't seem to be getting the message. There was really no place for breeders to go to get factual information, and they didn't have access to the resources and expertise they would need to address the growing problem. So ICB was born.

Four years on, thousands of students have taken ICB courses, but still it's just a trivial fraction of the number of breeders. A surprising number of ICB students are not breeders themselves, but are considering breeding in the future or are concerned about the growing health crisis in purebred dogs. For the most part, the "mainstream" breeders are not in these courses.

Perhaps this is why we seem to have settled into a standard approach in dealing with genetic disorders in dogs.

-------------------------
1) Dogs begin to turn up that suffer from some new disorder.

2) Breeders avoid breeding to dogs in the suspect lines.

3) Nevertheless, more dogs are afflicted and it becomes clear that the problem might be widespread.

4) Breeders acknowledge that there is a new genetic problem in the breed.

5) Breeders collect money and cheek swabs to initiate a research project to study the new disorder or to identify the faulty gene.

6) In the meantime, breeding continues and new cases continue to appear.

7) In the best case (but relatively rare) scenario, a single mutation is identified, a DNA test is developed, and a new test is added to the health screening list.

8) More often, a faulty gene is never identified, and study of the disorder does not offer useful insight into control measures.

9) The disorder is acknowledged as a "problem in the breed".

10) Breeding continues. Individual breeders adopt the strategies they believe will reduce their risk of producing affected animals (e.g., remove affected individuals and their close relatives from breeding; avoid breeding outside lines that are believed to be free of the problem). But nobody really knows what to do.

11) Eventually, a new problem will emerge and the cycle will repeat.

(Note that I have left out the steps for rumors, finger-pointing, witch-hunting, and blame.)

----------------------

To the breeders, celebrity psychologist Dr Phil would ask "And how's this been workin' for ya'?"

The honest answer is that it's not.

What's the problem here? Breeders are looking to science for solutions to health problems, and the scientists study genetics and disease.

But the dogs are dying of inbreeding, and that is the problem we need to fix. We are focused on consequence when the solution lies in the cause. We are continuing to enjoy our cigarettes while we toss money at lung cancer research and assume that with hope, prayer, and patience things will get better. We are learning a lot about the problems that are caused by inbreeding, but we are not solving the problem.
Facebook posts like the ones at the beginning haunt me. The daily obituaries of dogs that died before their time clash with the proud announcements on Facebook about a young dog taking a five point major in stiff competition, or a dog achieving Grand Champion status, or a breeder-handler winning the group. Even more grating are the pronouncements about "responsible breeders" and more recently "preservation breeders".Dobermans are dropping dead of heart failure and have been for decades, while breeding continues.

Look into the future. What scenario do you envision for how this will end?

Science can help you with this. Doberman lover and scientist Dr Sonia Garcia Herdez put the information together to do a projection. Using published information about the frequency of DCM (dilated cardiomyopathy) in Dobermans, she created this nice graph of the known and projected frequency of the disease.
View attachment 62986

The graph shows that if we extrapolate from the past incidence rates into the future, by 2020 (that's four years from now!), 72% of European Dobermans will be afflicted with DCM. She provides the equation for the line, so I am able to do a bit of math and tell you that in 2039, essentially 100% of European Dobermans will have DCM. Anybody that breeds or loves Dobermans and is not already well into their sixties should be able to witness the sad extinction of this breed.
Can't we make this better through selective breeding? We don't seem to be making much progress so far, and the available genetic data paint a grim picture. Below is a graph based on DNA genotyping of Dobermans done by the Finnish company MyDogDNA (MDD). (I have compiled these graphs for all breeds for convenience here.)
View attachment 62985

The graph is a frequency distribution of "heterozygosity". Heterozygosity is the fraction of loci in a dog's genome that have two different alleles. Inbreeding decreases heterozygosity; that is, inbreeding increases homozygosity, meaning both alleles are the same because an animal inherited the same allele from both parents. On the graph, the dogs with the lowest inbreeding are to the right and those with the highest inbreeding are to the left, indicated by the color scale from green to red under the graph. The orange line on this graph is for "all dogs" in their database and the green line is for a selection of similar breeds (pinschers, schnauzers, etc).

The blue line is for Dobermans and includes dogs from the US, UK, Finland, Russia, Australia, and Ukraine. The median level of heterozygosity reported by MDD for Dobermans is 27% (that should be close to the peak in the blue line). This is quite a bit lower than the median for all dogs, and it's even worse than the comparison population.

But is this really all that bad? Have a look at the graph below.

I have compiled the data for median heterozygosity of most of the breeds in the MDD database, and they are ranked here from worst (left) to best (right). The Doberman is indicated by the red arrow, well down in the rankings.
View attachment 62984

Yes, this is bad. These data show that genetic diversity in Dobermans is extremely low. You can't improve a trait if there is no genetic variation in the population to select from. Genetic diversity in Dobermans is low and probably half the breed is afflicted with DCM. For Doberman lovers, I think there is much heartbreak in the future.
I've talked to a fair number of Doberman breeders about this. I even went to the Doberman National Specialty a few years ago to talk to more breeders. I found that most Doberman breeders love their breed with a passion, and for many people Dobermans are their life. I am convinced that breeders will continue to battle diligently against DCM until the last dog dies. But there is no solution to this problem in what we are already doing.
In A Christmas Carol, Scrooge is spirited into the future, where he sees how the consequences of his actions have affected many lives. The grim picture is enough to get him to change his ways and become a better man.

Unless there is some unanticipated scientific breakthrough, the future of the Doberman is grim. Dogs will continue to be snatched from life by sudden heart failure, and owners will continue to come home from work to find their dog dead on the floor. The Doberman DCM Facebook group will continue to grow. The Rainbow Bridge will widen to accommodate the souls of the dogs that are dying too young.


Above, I've presented you with the data. Here is where I am going to offer my opinion.

DNA testing does not make somebody a "responsible" breeder. Caring for the heritage of your breed does not make you a "preservation" breeder. Pride and love and dedication are all terrific, but they will not prevent the heartbreak that awaits thousands of Doberman owners in the future. Breeders need to DO something about this.Breeders need to step up to the plate and acknowledge that continuing to breed dogs that are likely to die of a genetic disorder is irresponsible, unethical, and inhumane. That is certainly how the average, everyday dog lover feels. This is also how I feel.
The Doberman was not created in its present form by a dog-loving God. It is a "blender" breed, created by a man who mixed a bit of this and a bit of that until he had the dogs he wanted. The breed was "recognized", the studbook closed, and the gene pool has been getting smaller ever since. Can the breed be saved by a cross-breeding program? Who knows, but certainly it is worth a try and there is little too lose. But time is running out.

How many of you just read the last paragraph and thought to yourselves "But breeders will never do it". Really? Not the "responsible" breeders? Not even the "preservation" breeders? Is there nobody who loves this breed enough to save it?
View attachment 62989
Go back and watch that video of the Doberman dropping dead in the middle of a game of fetch. Where are the breeders - those most devoted Doberman lovers - who will do something about this? This isn't my breed, but it's breaking my heart.


Postscript
If you're thinking that you're glad you aren't a Doberman breeder, you should have a look at the data for your own breed. There are unfortunately many breeds in which dedicated (responsible, preservation) breeders are likewise pursuing solutions by supporting research to study the health condition or searching for causative genes. Huge sums of money are being spent, breeders are becoming experts about esoteric veterinary disorders, and Facebook is burgeoned with groups for information, commiseration, and condolences.

But the path is the same, and the consequences probably are too. There is only one way to cure the diseases that result from inbreeding. Breeders are the only ones that can fix this. The problems have become obvious and undeniable in many breeds: Berners, Goldens, Flatcoats, Irish Water Spaniels, Cavaliers, Akitas, Dogue de Bordeaux, Bulldogs, Scotties, Westies, and the list goes on.

There are a lot of breeds in trouble, with high inbreeding, low diversity, a growing list of genetic disorders, and plans to start another research study.

Science can learn about the problems caused by inbreeding, but the "cure" for inbreeding will have to come from the breeders. If you want to preserve your breed, this is the problem you need to address.

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Source: Are we watching the extinction of a breed? (or, Why are we focused on consequence instead of cause?)
 

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I'm so very sorry for your tragic loss. :sorrow: Unfortunately there are some bad breeders out there who are only in it for the $$$ and it's tragic for the puppy buyers when they have to suffer such heartbreaking losses. :(
 
Thank you Fred so much for this thread. My son purchased 2 Dobermans from an online national breeding company Greenfield *******, I'll try to be brief, they were born 4 weeks apart, same fathers. King came first, the breeders for an additional fee cropped his ears. Big mistake! When we picked him up there were only 7-8 stitches per ear and the one had to be fixed at the ER Vet hospital ($1,200) more we didn't expect. Our Kacie born 12/21/16, was beautiful as well and WE had her ears cropped by a real surgeon and everything went fine. I noticed Kacie would breathe extra hard at times for no reason. The vet said she was fine. I never new of this DCM or I would have thoroughly had them check both their hearts. I fell in love with both of these dogs my son I kept king with him in case he stayed with me at my home with my husband and I. She slept with me she went everywhere with me she was my best friend my everything . On The morning of April 12 of this year I just 14 weeks old during her morning nap I went to wake her up and she was going. You can only imagine my horror my distraught and my grief to this very day I blame myself for not doing the research prior, because I asked my son about their health history he showed me on the breeders website the two Doberman disorders but never published and to this day still will not publish DCM the number one killer. I have a swab test going out for king at the North Carolina University of veterinary medicine for the two mutation genes. I know king of test positive for one of them because of Kacie. Needless to say the company in the breeders refused to return my calls and owner of the company has actually disconnected his cell phone. These Amish families don't care what they are putting families through, the pain they put our family through and others from her litter, now and in the future and there's nothing anyone can do the stop them?? I haven't slept in my room since she died, I wear her little collar around my wrist everyday. Not one hour goes by I don't grieve for her. She was a baby! I can't even see this screen through tears.....God bless everyone who has suffered as I have and will forever.
I hope that you will stick around here.
Great people here, great dogs. In some ways this place helped me heal after our own loss.
 

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