" Total Dog" breeding, proofing, etc lets yak!

[BGpa]

- holding spot...to avoid totally going OT on @MichiH FAST CAT success...

Now at @Ravenbird request...
It one were to search archives here you'll find several references to this term that originated many years ago with Ray Carlisle, then Vic Monteleone...

But what does it mean to you today,

and how do you go about attaining that if it is a goal for you and dobe...
And what are your thoughts on how:
"proofing" it either by the AKC/DPCA show dog way
or
the UKC/UDC working dog way?

Feel free to expound and go as OT as you like. This is a long discussion over the decades in dobe world both here and abroad...I have "no dog in this fight" other than to learn. And maybe decide what to do next on one more big dog.

 

[Ravenbird]

Somehow I missed this from a month ago.

I've pretty much just given up discussing this. If everyone loves what they've got, that's all that matters.

Generally speaking - I won't use the words All, Always, Never etc. - Generally speaking, serious show folks do not like the looks or the temperament of working Dobermans and Generally speaking, working Dobe folks don't want to breed for the show look, risking losing their working abilities. And both groups rightfully so, as mixing them up rarely begets the best of both worlds, but rather a plain dog that can't compete at the top of either venue. The Doberman by percentage of success in protection sports is dismal. Ray Carlisle tried hard to preserve that, formed the UDC, encouraged Doberman fans to work toward both showing & working, and for a while it was looking good and there were some great dogs that came of it. Then there's always the Commercial Breeders, which I think should be a separate group from the BYB breeders. The Commercial Breeders being the ones who churn out hundreds and hundreds of puppies simply to fill the demand of pet owners with deep pockets. The worst of the worst bringing in their own popular fads until it is soon a demand in the market, such as the over done, dane headed XXL Dobermanns.

Today, by my observations, conformation shows (for all breeds) are less and less popular and I don't see it getting more popular any time soon. And for the life of me, I cannot see the point of building a picture perfect dog with that being the entire goal. The working Dobes are fewer and further between, and as of a few days ago, the UDC Nationals has been canceled due to lack of entries. It was also canceled either last year or year before for the same reason. If the United Doberman Club can't fill its own Nationals, where are we with the working sport? What is anyone preserving? Health and longevity has taken a nose dive in the last 20 years, Genetic COI is commonly in the 40% range, except in the "lowly BYB's" (Not referring to Commercial Breeders, their COI's are usually the worst). I'm depressed as hell about it all, but it is what it is and I'm just tired of it all.

This comment from a sighthound person who actually works their Afghans said it for me, only they don't have a bottle neck breed that now has an expected lifespan of less than 10 years, so they have nothing to lose by dividing up their lines. Afghans can usually expect to live to 12 - 15.





Afghan Hound via AKC website:

 

[BGpa]

@Ravenbird I do not disagree with your understanding of trends, and given my inexperience, can only comment based on reading...have not attended shows, trained IGP...so this is a concern, and thanks for sharing esp from the Facebook side. Be interested in an official confirm on why Topeka show was cancelled.

Just a minor quibble- the 2026 UDC Nationals did go in NY as the "Prison Break" themed event.

Its the 2026 Fall IGP event in Topeka that has just been cancelled:

https://uniteddobermanclub.com/2026-09-25-26-fall-classic-national-igp-trial/

The 2027 UDC Nationals hasn't been announced yet.

The AWDF National in Texas is still on. This is the FCI qualifier, iirc:

2027 AWDF IGP Championship - United Doberman Club

A benefit of United Doberman Club membership is the opportunity for qualified dog and handler teams to apply to represent the Doberman breed, the United Doberman Club, and the United States in several prestigious National and International IGP trials. One of these national events is the annual...

uniteddobermanclub.com

I do look forward to more insider insight on working dog trends, and where to on future local regional and national working trials, as attending in person is my next to-do.

 

[Two Dobes]

I love the authors Afghan Tazi! Out doing what it was bred to do! Great shot....I don't know anything about the breed, so that was very informative for me. Thanks!

 

[Ravenbird]

Just a minor quibble- the 2026 UDC Nationals did go in NY as the "Prison Break" themed event.

Its the 2026 Fall IGP event in Topeka that has just been cancelled:
https://uniteddobermanclub.com/2026-09-25-26-fall-classic-national-igp-trial/

Yes, I'm sorry, I didn't describe it right.

As stated in my notification on Sept 21st,
The 2026 UDC Fall Classic & World Qualifying Championship
has been cancelled due to a lack of entries.

The AWDF National in Texas is still on. This is the FCI qualifier

The AWDF is an all breed National IGP Club, and their National in Texas would go on with or without any Doberman entries.

It's just sad that the UDC couldn't fill their own event that was set to be a World Qualifying Championship. I know UDC has lots of members, but still not enough to make lots of local clubs with lots of local entries that would build more interest with the best dogs to fill the annual Fall Classic. Of course me being a member who would have loved to experience that, even if just in conformation or temperament testing, or 3 or 4 years back give me enough incentive to keep training IGP, but the very closest UDC trial of any kind has been a 12 hour drive one way. I imagine there are dozens more just like me, want to but just can't due to distance circumstances. I didn't even have the choice of the AWDF trials but had only USCA clubs & trials to go to within a 4 hour drive, so that's what I did. USCA is a GSD founded club but accepts all breeds, but the vibe can be different at each club as far as off breeds & helpers go.

So again, at a loss of how to fix this. It's the same as our friends here trying to get a major for their show, if it takes 5 dogs and only 4 show up it's a big loss. If you plan for months to go to the closest UDC trial and it doesn't fill, that stings too.

as attending in person is my next to-do.

Same boat, none have been anywhere close to me. I would have loved to go to the Prison Break, would have put in hours as a volunteer just to be there. But that's my point. So few & so far between even the people dying to go see and watch in person can't find one, then how do you attract new people at all?

 

[BGpa]

@Ravenbird yes, finding the breeders of sound healthy dogs with more calm, confident stability AND old school guardian temperament, with better heath and longevity than the average American showlines is the refinement I seek for best next dobe. Not a unicorn but doable I think with careful homework.

The trick is finding them, as most working line breeders are busy training, competing in working trials, and owner handling in confo, so asking here and other dobe specific forums and FB groups is a start. UDC while best for "Total Dog" as the smaller group has the challenge of creating and maintaining critical mass, and I see how thats always been stronger in some geographic areas than others.

Its a smaller world and so it takes more time and travel if serious, and for the benefit of other lurkers and dog nerds doing homework- there are two ways to find the winners, breeders doing it the way you want:

0. After Learning how to read pedigrees and titles
1. Review recent Show results, then contact the top three in whatever you are looking for... This can take time as busy best in breed folks have waiting lists, are picky in turn about who gets their puppies.
2. Meet in person at shows, to watch and make the connection, spped up your own learning curve and accelerate your networking. Nothing separates the random looky loos and internet tire kickers like someone who puts in the time to put the face with name.

A big event being cancelled is a dent in the search, and I can imagine a real disappointment to those breeders, owners, trainers helpers who need that experience to advance their work...so, yeah...its a bad deal.

I only have one more big dog in me, so finding the breeders in person is a very helpful shortcut.

Agree on the commercial breeders and past market trends in hypertropes mostly from unregulated eastern european breeders.

Hopefully as more information can be shared here and elsewhere as education, best practices in breeding will continue to improve.

Having a well informed deep discussion here and elsewhere is the key to customer education.

So keep up the good work.
Good news about AI is the best info gets shared more.

I even see DPCA trying hard on improved website, changes in DobeQuest.

Things like a new breed club in Germany to offer more honest judging, the open-ness to best practices use of new genetic tools as in the FKC outcross project, the couple three large sample size studies under way in various vet schools on DCM, Copper Disease...

Its proof the market demand is there, to do better, for the breed.

I sure do even the young/uns just getting started especially in IGP. Its a great time to be alive if you love dogs with a job.

PS: huge thanks to those of you who are breeding, competing, or have-especially on working side. Its a gigantic benefit to us noobs to learn, from what you share here so thanks for paying it forward.

 

[Ravenbird]

I love the authors Afghan Tazi! Out doing what it was bred to do! Great shot....I don't know anything about the breed, so that was very informative for me. Thanks!

I love the sight hounds as a group! I met a guy here in NM that flew and hunted with falcons and sight hounds. They all worked together hunting rabbits and such. An absolutely brilliant man, thought we'd be visiting for an hour or two and ended up talking non-stop for an entire day and into the evening with him and his wife about horses, dogs and birds. He went on a trip to Mongolia and got to travel and hunt with the eagles there. I don't know how he's doing now, he had just recently been diagnosed with Parkinsons when I met him and that's been 13 - 14 years ago. One of those people who you meet and you feel like you've known for years. He had a very old dog, I think a saluki, who slept on the couch the entire time and a young falcon also in the house that he was bringing up to hunt with(he had legal license to own and hunt with them).

Stephen J Bodio – Behind the Ranges Press

behindtherangespress.com

 

[BGpa]

@Ravenbird yes, finding the breeders of sound healthy dogs with more calm, confident AND old school guardian temperament, with better heath and longevity than the American showlines is the refinement I seek for best next dobe.

The trick is finding them, as most working line breeders are busy training, competing in working trials, and owner handling in confo, so asking here and other dobe specific forums and FB groups is a start.

Its a smaller world and so it takes more time and travel if serious, so there are two ways to find the winners:
1.Show results, then contact them.
2. Meet in person at shows, to watch and make the connection.
A big event being cancelled is a dent in the search, and I can imagine a real disappointment to those breeders, owners, trainers helpers who need that experience to advance their work...so, yeah...its a bad deal.

I only have one more big dog in me, so finding the breeders in person is a very helpful shortcut.

Agree on the commercial breeders and past market trends in hypertropes mostly from unregulated eastern european breeders. There is a lot of good info buried in archives here and the other forum, on why not, etc but bottomline: "just dont".

Hopefully as more information can be shared here and elsewhere as education, best practices in breeding will continue to improve, and the breeders who do so are rewarded witj well informed buyers.

Having a well informed deep discussion here and elsewhere is THE key to customer education, so kudos to everyone here who platforms this place so well, as open gracious help to us noobs just getting started.

So @Ravenbird and al you mods and exoerienced folk many thanks and keep up the good work.

Good news about AI is the best info gets shared more, and DCF shows up in AI searches as a best place to learn more.

I even see DPCA trying hard on improved website, changes in DobeQuest, and I'm sure there is awareness of conversations similar here and elsewwhere, in a positive way.

Things like a new breed club in Germany to offer more honest judging, the growing open-ness to best practices use of new genetic tools as in the FKC outcross project, the couple three large sample size studies under way in various vet schools on DCM, Copper Disease...tell me the breed still has legs.

Its proof the market demand is there, to do better, for the breed.

I sure do envy the young-uns just getting started especially in IGP. Its a great time to be alive if you love dogs with a job.

 

[BGpa]

I love the sight hounds as a group! I met a guy here in NM that flew and hunted with falcons and sight hounds. They all worked together hunting rabbits and such. An absolutely brilliant man, thought we'd be visiting for an hour or two and ended up talking non-stop for an entire day and into the evening with him and his wife about horses, dogs and birds. He went on a trip to Mongolia and got to travel and hunt with the eagles there. I don't know how he's doing now, he had just recently been diagnosed with Parkinsons when I met him and that's been 13 - 14 years ago. One of those people who you meet and you feel like you've known for years. He had a very old dog, I think a saluki, who slept on the couch the entire time and a young falcon also in the house that he was bringing up to hunt with(he had legal license to own and hunt with them).

Stephen J Bodio – Behind the Ranges Press

behindtherangespress.com

Great link! Meet the most amazing people thru talking dogs...latest links there are current. Added to my books to read list.

 

[Nordika]

Working line Doberman Breeders should push the parent club to get a CCA. (I thought they had one, but appears not)

Certificate of Conformation Assessment (CCA)

Learn more about Certificate of Conformation Assessment (CCA), including how it works, rules, and how to get involved. Everything we do is for dogs.

www.akc.org

This is the only way to keep them conformationally correct without having to spend time and money in the show ring. There's no reason that a working dog should be an ugly dog.

 

[BGpa]

Working line Doberman Breeders should push the parent club to get a CCA. (I thought they had one, but appears not)

Certificate of Conformation Assessment (CCA)

Learn more about Certificate of Conformation Assessment (CCA), including how it works, rules, and how to get involved. Everything we do is for dogs.

www.akc.org

This is the only way to keep them conformationally correct without having to spend time and money in the show ring. There's no reason that a working dog should be an ugly dog.

Wow, great info.
Quick question for the cogniscenti:
Does DPCA offer this?
UDC?
Other working line registries that dobes are welcome to show and trial? UDC uses AKC for show side proof of confo.

Who is in charge at the UDC for us potential customers to contact to ask how to get it?

Seems like a very good way to get new people involved at an economical entry point.

 

[JanS]

This is the only way to keep them conformationally correct without having to spend time and money in the show ring. There's no reason that a working dog should be an ugly dog.

I think it's a good idea but the list of breeds isn't very long yet.
List of participating breeds, click on the breed name to view parent club program guidelines.

Golden Retriever

West Highland White Terrier

Leonberger

Dogo Argentino

Bracco Italiano

Other parent clubs that are interested in creating their own CCA program to be recognized by the AKC can get more information here.

 

[Nordika]

I think it's a good idea but the list of breeds isn't very long yet.
List of participating breeds, click on the breed name to view parent club program guidelines.

Golden Retriever

West Highland White Terrier

Leonberger

Dogo Argentino

Bracco Italiano

Other parent clubs that are interested in creating their own CCA program to be recognized by the AKC can get more information here.

Since it has to be through the parent club, DPCA (secret society ) maybe it should be pitched to the show breeders as a means for an AKC conformation title for their pet/companion homes as the CCA is open to spayed and neutered. Just a thought.

 

[JanS]

it should be pitched to the show breeders as a means for an AKC conformation title for their pet/companion homes as the CCA is open to spayed and neutered.

I'm never gotten why AKC doesn't allow altered dogs in conformation. UKC welcomes it and it's a good reflection on a breeder too when they are proven to have correct conformation.

 

[BGpa]

Since it has to be through the parent club, DPCA (secret society ) maybe it should be pitched to the show breeders as a means for an AKC conformation title for their pet/companion homes as the CCA is open to spayed and neutered. Just a thought.

I understand that this place may be watched by those Elite Who Know Whats Best For The Little People...

I'd defer to those who are in that club to ask the Board to consider the idea.

I'm just some guy in the cheap seats here.

 

[BGpa]

I'm never gotten why AKC doesn't allow altered dogs in conformation. UKC welcomes it and it's a good reflection on a breeder too when they are proven to have correct conformation.

I'd have considered it at one time but the PAL requirement to prove spay was a no go for me, and in contravention of the UCDavis (google frontiers) study updated in 2024 to include dobes and 20 more breeds...
That specifies DONT spay females until 2 years
And DONT neuter males EVER for best health

I understand AKC covers all breeds, so exceptions cant be made to keep it simple.

But again, I think AKC is missing a bet given how the dog buying public has changed.

I get how DPCA represents their customer: the breeders, first, too.

Its a free market. When a need exists, smart product or services providers will change to serve those unmet customer needs.

Sometimes just floating the idea uo the chop chain will find someone in a position of influence to take charge and carry out the Plan of the Day, to steer the boat on a new course.

I see smart people on the Boards.

 

[JanS]

I understand AKC covers all breeds, so exceptions cant be made to keep it simple.

But as far as I know the AKC president is a Doberman owner so it should be understood that all breeds vary.

 

[Ravenbird]

I'm never gotten why AKC doesn't allow altered dogs in conformation. UKC welcomes it and it's a good reflection on a breeder too when they are proven to have correct conformation.

Exactly.

And many working line Dobermans get UKC CH or UDC CH which both are easier to attain if your dog is to the standard than going the AKC route which is much more difficult due to numbers in classes, judges, handlers, and current preferred looks & styles etc. AKC CH will always carry more weight just because it's so much more difficult to attain than the others.

This is the only way to keep them conformationally correct without having to spend time and money in the show ring. There's no reason that a working dog should be an ugly dog.

It sounds like the "judge" is an evaluator, so I'm not sure how critical their judgment would be or what AKC requires them to know regarding breeds... . With over 200 breeds in AKC and only a handful optioning for this evaluation, I can see it might need some investigation on who is approving the breed standard and what their credentials are to say if a dog passes the breed standard. I can see an uproar from the breeders who have worked long and hard to get AKC CH or GCH flipping tables if DPCA approved giving out certificates by evaluators to working line looks that didn't fit into their idea of standard. Believe me, I'm with you on this. I think a dog that proves itself on the field, arena, track, whatever, should not have to prove that it has a correct shoulder angle or tail set or feet are perfect. I think multiple titles after their names say what the dog is.

 

[Nordika]

It sounds like the "judge" is an evaluator, so I'm not sure how critical their judgment would be or what AKC requires them to know regarding breeds... . With over 200 breeds in AKC and only a handful optioning for this evaluation, I can see it might need some investigation on who is approving the breed standard and what their credentials are to say if a dog passes the breed standard.

You misunderstand how it works. It isn't some random AKC evaluator. The breed club selects their breed specialists/evaluators and whatever requirements they deem necessary. That could mean an active member of DPCA in good standing for x number of years, attending judges seminars, attending national specialty, proven knowledge of the breed standard, breed temperament, anatomy and canine structure and terminology, the ability to articulate to give written and oral critique etc. as well as providing for the necessary knowledge of working dog differences in body condition, etc. It's all on the club, and the club is the organization that determines what is in our breed standard, not the AKC.

 

[BGpa]

So since DPCA is a dobe breed club, and
UDC is a dobe breed club,
and the breeders and owners who worked so hard at DPCA regional chapters, showed to win at AKC/DPCA naturally would resent an easier path.

So UDC then...? If recall correctly UDC counts AKC wins, but allows owner handlers. And on the working side, is actually stricter on the temperament test, modeled on ZTP.

So younger hard chargers on a budget who want to compete in actual sport would be able to bypass the barriers to entry set up by an increasingly elderly class of folks at DPCA.

And prove confo for the purpose: muscloskeletal structure to do the job...
And build total dogs, proofed for the actual functional tasks of working dogs.

CCA sounds like a smart alternative.
Just as PAL and Canine Partners on the show side.

I dont see a downside.
Just needs a champion to run with it.