Best Breeders that focus on the right temperament, good health & conformation

[Dman]

I'm in Canada and I would love to find a good breeder that focuses on health testing, sound temperament for the breed and conformation that fits within the stardards.



I'm under the impression that FCI standard is better because it sticks to what a Dobermann should be and working is a requirement in order to qualify as compared to AKC standards... and according to some or many, the temperament of those dogs is better as well?



I don't want the frail looking very small greyhound Dobermann but I also don't want the hyperstle horse Dobermann that often gets pushed in Eastern Europe. I would like a healthy balance of a dog with good proportions that fit the standards of the breed as designed.



Should I be focusing on getting Euro working line or show line? Should I even be bothering considering American ones at all if the standards and temperament differences are there?



I have some experience with blue skin american doberman (female) and raising a male german shepard puppy . I also love learning about dogs and have done that for years. A dobermann has been my favorite breed since I was a little kid and watch this man who lived in the neighborhood walk his two dobermann off leash every morning as I waited for the bus to go to school as a child. When I raise the dog, I would enjoy doing outdoor activities to keep it mentally and physically stimulated as well as IGP work with it as well by joining a local club if possible too. It will also be my companion pet dog that will live inside the house with me.



Are there good breeders in canada/usa that i can look towards or should I be looking at Europe somewhere? Ideally would want ears cropped as well. I guess I'm open to both show and working lines as long as they are doing things right to create a dog that fits the definition of what that breed really is. I also understand there is a bit of a spectrum in terms of stone dogs will have a bit more drive compared to others etc..



Any recommendations for good breeders to buy from who are authentic and passionate about creating good dogs to carry the breed forward?

 

[LifeofRubie]

hello and welcome!!!

A good place to start is DCPA breeder referral site (there are some Canadian recommendations on there!)

There is still some due diligence that needs to be done when you're reviewing breeders. There should be adequate health testing done on both parents, they should be titled to prove their functionality, typically an American bred Dobe pup will come cropped and docked (I don't have experience with Canadian breeders here), the breeder will pick the best pup for you based on your lifestyle (understanding you may give them desires to work within: Black Male suitable for pet home, for example), they will have a contract that include stuff like recommendations on when to spay/neuter and that the dog must be returned to them for any reason at any time if you cannot keep them, etc. I can reach out to the mentor of and breeder of my Dobe at any time and they're always available (my Dobe just turned 10!). You may also have to be patient which I know is the hardest part but it is worth it!

A pup will also come with a registration number but this does not automatically mean they are a reputable breeder so if someone is advertising that and not much else, it's a red flag. If they're dropping litter left and right, it's a red flag. If their pricing seems dependent on sex or color, it's a red flag.

Basically, it should feel like they are entrusting you to care for a member of their family, not just selling a puppy to offload it. They will have questions and perhaps even a questionnaire to fill out to be considered for future litters.

I'll let other speak for themselves but there are wonderful dogs out of wonderful breeders on this site! My girl is from Firebolt Dobermans but I'm not certain they've got any litters planned, at the moment.

Edit to add: you had some comments on size so just wanted to say, Dobermans are truly intended to be medium sized dogs. My girl is a smidge under 60 lbs which is on the smaller end but I can you... it's plenty if she needed to use it.

 

[Dman]

Thank you for the reply. Your girl is beautiful.

Yes, great points for general breeder picking.

FCI has a standard for weight spectrum which AKC doesn't have and they also have more detailed temperament requiremens with the ability to work which AKC doesn't have etc... that's why wondering if I should be looking at European that fits the FCI standard...

 

[Ravenbird]

I did look up FCI heights and max for male is 72 cm or 28.3 inches. AKC is 28 inches. FCI for females is max 68 cm or 26.7 inches, AKC is max of 26 inches for females. So we are talking fractions of an inch, not a lot bigger dog at all. Weights can vary depending on size and the care the owner puts into the feeding and exercise and not a number.

Sorry, just now seeing you made this into a stand alone thread, I've been commenting on the other thread.

Also as @remy just posted of her dogs Fast Cat photos, the change of appearance from a year old to a 3 year old is stunning. Something to keep in mind when you see random photos of dogs ask (or ask yourself) "how old is this dog?" before you decided it's too much of a lightweight for your taste. Also, I think it was something that @remy also said was that several people mistook her dog for Euro, he's not. He's American show lines. That's why I encourage you to not label what you're looking for so much as just start looking for what attracts you. There really isn't a right or a wrong since there are several different types/looks/styles that all fall within basic standards and can be well bred.

 

[JanS]

Also as @remy just posted of her dogs Fast Cat photos, the change of appearance from a year old to a 3 year old is stunning. Something to keep in mind when you see random photos of dogs ask (or ask yourself) "how old is this dog?" before you decided it's too much of a lightweight for your taste. Also, I think it was something that @remy also said was that several people mistook her dog for Euro, he's not.

Exactly what I was going to say and Remy is a great example.

 

[Dman]

I did look up FCI heights and max for male is 72 cm or 28.3 inches. AKC is 28 inches. FCI for females is max 68 cm or 26.7 inches, AKC is max of 26 inches for females. So we are talking fractions of an inch, not a lot bigger dog at all. Weights can vary depending on size and the care the owner puts into the feeding and exercise and not a number.

Yes inn height the small difference but the rest as mentioned in the other message is still different. FCI has weight requirement, body structure requirement from face, bone structure, neck, top line, hips etc and on top of that temperament requirement that are more detailed and different than AKC. So I don't understand why you say there's no difference especially if you don't Even know the FCI requirements? I don't mean that in a rude way, just so you know lol. Tone can be hard to read through text. Just having a respectful conversation to grow.

 

[remy]

Also as @remy just posted of her dogs Fast Cat photos, the change of appearance from a year old to a 3 year old is stunning.

Here’s the picture!

Also, I think it was something that @remy also said was that several people mistook her dog for Euro, he's not. He's American show lines.

Yes, I get this often! I would assume many of the people asking are not well versed in Dobermans, despite some owning the breed themselves… People see a Doberman with a decent head or nice substance and swear it must be European. I’ve even had some lady practically argue with me about the pedigree of my own dog.

That's why I encourage you to not label what you're looking for so much as just start looking for what attracts you. There really isn't a right or a wrong since there are several different types/looks/styles that all fall within basic standards and can be well bred.

Agree!!!

 

[JanS]

that's not an American line with a beautiful head like that.

And that's the true stereotype some people believe the American standard is. Yes, I have seen some swan necked, snipey nosed Americans but that is not the standard.

 

[Dman]

There can be outliers in American and can have larger spectrum of phenotypical and genotypical characteristics. The lady arguing might lack a bit of knowledge on that. But European dobermann within the FCI standard have a more specific and a more rigid set of requirements to adhere to, phenotypically as well as genotypically.

There's no way someone can say euro and american are the same when the regulations and requirements are completely different for each.

All my understanding so far leads me to that understanding. If I don't have clarity on that and I am wrong about the regulations then please feel free to point it out. I am happy to learn. Just objectively we are looking at differences that exist, it seems.

 

[LifeofRubie]

@Dman Can you summarize for me (not familiar with FCI in the slightest) how the structure and temperament descriptions are different than AKC? Just for my own understanding! Love educational conversations with folks with different experiences.

I'm a bit stuck on a strong focus on weight when that's the least important factor, IMO. Weight should be healthy for the dog's structure and the structure and temperament should fit the functionality of the dog.

If a physical dog is what you're looking for (based on your mention of IGP and outdoor activities), that option is certainly available within AKC standards! I would be hard pressed to hear anyone call Remy "a frail looking very small greyhound doberman."

Not pushing AKC over FCI (as I don't know the differences to be able to) but I don't think you're looking for a unicorn?

 

[LifeofRubie]

There can be outliers in American and can have larger spectrum of phenotypical and genotypical characteristics. The lady arguing might lack a bit of knowledge on that. But European dobermann within the FCI standard have a more specific and a more rigid set of requirements to adhere to, phenotypically as well as genotypically.

I don't think anyone is arguing. You came to a specific forum to ask opinions from folks with different kinds of experiences and I believe that's what people are doing!

I don't think anyone will dissuade you from getting a European Doberman that satisfies FCI standards and it sounds like you already have your mind made up that that is the right path for you. Certainly not speaking for everyone but I don't think there are a ton of active members with intimate knowledge of reputable European breeders to get you in the right firection but I'm sure someone who does will chime in when they get the chance

 

[remy]

and on top of that temperament requirement that are more detailed and different than AKC.

For comparison, here are the descriptions of temperament from FCI, AKC, and the DPCA’s illustrated standard (which is actually the most detailed of all.)

FCI Standard

AKC Standard

DPCA Illustrated Standard (essentially the more in-depth version of the AKC Standard)

 

[JanS]

@Dman Here is an example and I'm not sure you can tell me which is which. One of these is a full Euro and the other two are American's with some SA lines.

 

[Dman]

@Dman Can you summarize for me (not familiar with FCI in the slightest) how the structure and temperament descriptions are different than AKC? Just for my own understanding! Love educational conversations with folks with different experiences.

I'm a bit stuck on a strong focus on weight when that's the least important factor, IMO. Weight should be healthy for the dog's structure and the structure and temperament should fit the functionality of the dog.

If a physical dog is what you're looking for (based on your mention of IGP and outdoor activities), that option is certainly available within AKC standards! I would be hard pressed to hear anyone call Remy "a frail looking very small greyhound doberman."

Not pushing AKC over FCI (as I don't know the differences to be able to) but I don't think you're looking for a unicorn?

I just wanted to clarify that I'm discussing in good spirit that's all. I am by no means saying american standard breed is not good. They are great in many ways and beautiful as well. But it's just very clear to me that there are temperament differences within the regulations that show phenotypic & genotypic differences. Just looking at the description Remy posted. It will show you how AkC only focuses on certain things temperament wise whereas FCI has more regulations and working requirement. Phenotypically as well as mentioned before.

That fits not man american can never have that temperament or even structure that mimics more. It's just not the requirement and not the focus of the regulations. Still a great dog generally but data also shows more assertiveness and confidence along with stone other characteristics being more prevalent in european dobermann. It's just objective reasoning.

From my understanding so far, yes it does seem that I would want a European Dobermann within the FCI standard from a breeder that is authentic and responsible about those things as well as health.

It was just throwing me off guard with people's bias that they are the same which doesn't make sense to me.

I appreciate your input though
It would be lovely to hear someone with that knowledge if they could guide me in the right direction ofcourse.

 

[Dman]

@Dman Here is an example and I'm not sure you can tell me which is which. One of these is a full Euro and the other two are American's with some SA lines.
View attachment 158074

Beautiful dogs but you are missing the point. It's not about whether someone can tell it difference between those particular dogs that I know nothing about. Also I never said an american cannot have similar features ever or similar temperament ever. It's just different regulations and one is less focused on working and structure.

It's about objective reasoning and regulation standards that are put forward across the world.

I'm trying to learn and be objective that's why I even ask. It's okay to be uncertain but it's confusing for people when someone boldly says there's no difference but there's clear differences in the stardard being used.

Regardless, if someone could potentially guide me in the right direction for european dobermann with FCI standard with good health and responsible breeder then it would definitely make my day. Thank you for the input regardless.

 

[BGpa]

Hmmm. @Dman I see you have asked the same question at "the other doberman webforum" as "DamanB", quoted in part:

"I'm under the impression that FCI standard is better because it sticks to what a Dobermann should be and working is a requirement in order to qualify as compared to AKC standards... and according to some or many, the temperament of those dogs is better as well?"

If your question is about temperament, and given the level of research you have apparently done, then the answer is clear:

Breeders in Germany selling/showing FCI dogs have to show proof of the dog passing a temperament test.

Breeders in the US do not have to prove temperament, but many will test their dogs in WAE, but its only a reference, and not required to breed, only for achieving the ROM.

This is easily found by a google or AI search on "AKC vs FCI temperament test for dobermans" and then reading those references,
Or simply using the webforum search feature and reading further back.

 

[Dman]

Hmmm. @Dman I see you have asked the same question at "the other doberman webforum" as "DamanB", quoted in part:

"I'm under the impression that FCI standard is better because it sticks to what a Dobermann should be and working is a requirement in order to qualify as compared to AKC standards... and according to some or many, the temperament of those dogs is better as well?"

If your question is about temperament, and given the level of research you have apparently done, then the answer is clear:

Breeders in Germany selling/showing FCI dogs have to show proof of the dog passing a temperament test.

Breeders in the US do not have to prove temperament, but many will test their dogs in WAE, but its only a reference, and not required to breed, only for achieving the ROM.

This is easily found by a google or AI search on "AKC vs FCI temperament test for dobermans" and then reading those references,
Or simply using the webforum search feature and reading further back.

Yes

You are absolutely right.

That's why I was asking to expand on my knowledge if someone understands the differences and can guide me towards a euro breeder that adheres to those guidelines while keeping health history as focus too.

 

[BGpa]

Returning to your first post here:

Yes

You are absolutely right.

That's why I was asking to expand on my knowledge if someone understands the differences and can guide me towards a euro breeder that adheres to those guidelines while keeping health history as focus too.

Gotcha. And "welcome!" By the way...

Going back to your first post here, first sentence:
"I'm in Canada and I would love to find a good breeder that focuses on health testing, sound temperament for the breed and conformation that fits within the stardards"

If I were in your shoes, I'd go to the breeder referral links for DPCA: (more conformation oriented)

Breeder Referral | DPCA

dpca.org

And UDC (more working oriented)

UDC Breeder Directory - United Doberman Club

This directory contains material compiled by the United Doberman Club as a service to Doberman enthusiasts around the world. Information has been provided by UDC members. Although every effort has been made to reproduce the information correctly, we cannot guarantee its accuracy. If you find...

uniteddobermanclub.com

And start reading at DPCA and at both forums about "questions to ask breeders".

You are on a great voyage of discovery on this breed and have found the best places to get experienced answers.

I'd spend some time thinking about:
"What job is this dobe doing for me?"
Is it a pet companion, are you going to show it? Sports? Personal protection?

As you flesh that out including the experience you have so far, you'll be able to have the conversation with breeders. Be patient: most are busy breeding, showing, training, etc and it can time to get a reply, I read, as they get lots of looky loo's and tire kickers...

Keep in mind many have waiting lists, and more than likely you will need to travel aways to get the best pup to fit you.

In the meantime, you might look for regional shows or trials and just go and observe in person...collect cards to ask after. Sometimes the show/trial organizers will publish results including video online- so thats fun and highly useful too.

Good luck and keep asking good questions! Everyone here and at the other likes to help, if you show good faith, and your own due diligence.

As you dig deeper (and I'm finding myself still reading far back in the archives three years later for nuggets of gold) you'll be able to appreciate the value of the conversation, even if some do have biases...thats human!

PS: there are also FakeBook and other social media places that can be useful but I dont spend enough time on those to be able to offer advice on which. You will see more flashy marketing by breeders that perhaps dont fit the standards you seek.

So buyer beware!

 

[Dman]

Returning to your first post here:

Gotcha. And "welcome!" By the way...

Going back to your first post here, first sentence:
"I'm in Canada and I would love to find a good breeder that focuses on health testing, sound temperament for the breed and conformation that fits within the stardards"

If I were in your shoes, I'd go to the breeder referral links for DPCA: (more conformation oriented)

Breeder Referral | DPCA

dpca.org

And UDC (more working oriented)

UDC Breeder Directory - United Doberman Club

This directory contains material compiled by the United Doberman Club as a service to Doberman enthusiasts around the world. Information has been provided by UDC members. Although every effort has been made to reproduce the information correctly, we cannot guarantee its accuracy. If you find...

uniteddobermanclub.com

And start reading at DPCA and at both forums about "questions to ask breeders".

You are on a great voyage of discovery on this breed and have found the best places to get experienced answers.

I'd spend some time thinking about:
"What job is this dobe doing for me?"
Is it a pet companion, are you going to show it? Sports? Personal protection?

As you flesh that out including the experience you have so far, you'll be able to have the conversation with breeders.

Keep in mind many have waiting lists, and more than likely you will need to travel aways to get the best pup to fit you.

Good luck and keep asking good questions! Everyone here and the other likes to help, if you show good faith, and your own due diligence. As you dig deeper (and I'm finding myself still reading far back in the archives three years later for nuggets of gold) you'll be able to appreciate the value of the conversation, even if some do have biases...thats human!

Thank you! I much appreciate your response. You are absolutely right. The more I get clarity, the more I realize that I want a dog that adheres to FCI regulations and I think exploring through UDC would definitely get me one step closer considering they value and try to adhere to the working regulations more as well as health testing. If I can have the phentypic characteristics to match then I would be even happier. Luckily I'm not on a time crunch to have a puppy right this moment so I'm happy to be patient and will wait for the right one.

It's definitely helpful discussing things and learning even when It's with people with a different bias. I love you guys all and appreciate the input!

 

[Rits]

If you are wanting to do IGP then you should look for a breeder that trains and titles dogs in the sport. You're going to want to specifically look at working breeders if that is your focus and if you want to excel. Yes, there are requirements for passing tests through FCI but unfortunately I've heard firsthand from those in the working sport scene that there is a lot of exchanged money under the table to judges by owners and breeders in order to meet those requirements so, its not all that useful to solely rely on to judge working temperament for.

I'd start looking here: https://uniteddobermanclub.com/udc-breeder-directory/ but don't rule out the DPCA breeder list if IGP isn't at the forefront and you'd maybe like to try it out if the dog was suited for it in order to learn. There are NA dobermans that have the drives and temperament to do IGP but IGP is a whole 'nother lifestyle and commitment level. Its challenging (expense and time) to do conformation and IGP while raising multiple dobermans. I'd say a fair bit of breeders heavily rely on their co-owns to help, in addition to their own titling, showcase their stock because of this.

Have you informed yourself of necessary health testing in the breed? That paired with looking for working titles on parent stock and some pedigree research on potential breeders/litters will help steer you towards the perfect breeder for you.

Alternatively, to not completely rule out non-euro breeders because I don't think you should limit yourself: You can look for BH, ATT, and WAC titles for temperament related tests. But these would be bare minimum for me, as Id like to see conformation and/or some working or performance titles in addition to showcase versatility, trainability, and stability to work in a variety of environments and sports.

I don't want the frail looking very small greyhound Dobermann

Age makes a huge difference on appearance ... I don't know of any NA breeder breeding frail, small, or greyhound looking Dobermans. Can you point us to such examples you are finding?

My father's male, Revel
1 year old


2



3


My breeder's male - 10 months

13 months

15 months

18 months


My male, Xeno - Barely 12 months old



14 months




I would say none of these males look frail. They take time to mature! All of these boys are no different than what is out there being produced by NA show breeders. There are SOME males out there lacking bone as they all have faults however I think it is much more likely the photos you are seeing being used as examples are either poor examples to drive a point or are win photos of puppies. A lot of males with a good handler finish before they are two, so, again the win photos will be of dogs who are not yet mature.