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Eris - Adulthood anxiety & eCollar issues
- Thread starter Liminalist
- Start date
Liminalist
Jr Member
Update -
Not the update I wanted to be making. Progress is never linear and setbacks are to be expected; this, however, was more than a typical set back.
Eris has been doing well overall. Taking her out on walks, even letting her off-leash in places no one is around has been good for her. A lot of the underlying issues aren't resolved or even really improved much, BUT the main issues of being able to go on walks has seemed to be a lot better. That is, until this last weekend...
Two things happened that have me very concerned. First, my roommate and I were at a native plant sale and we brought Eris along for some low key exposure. She's gone to nurseries before and done well. This time there were two children -- maybe 9 to 11 years old -- that she did NOT like. The girl was okay, she was very slow moving and kept her distance, but the boy was observably Autistic. He would jump or skip around like 30 feet away from us. Several times Eris wheeled on him defensively. She didn't quite "lunge," but there were a few times that had I not had a firm grip of the leash, that I think she would have run him down -- I don't want to think about what she might have done if she had. I want to believe she wouldn't bite - she never has shown that inclination, but she plays rough and tends to nip and jump at people/dogs when playing. On the other hand, the way she was watching the boy wasn't in a playful way, it was in a defensive posture, unpredictable, that empty-eyed predatory look.
On top of that, some adults were sitting on a porch swing, tossing little pebbles here and there, and that was bothering her, of all things. Every stone that clacked, she'd swivel, her head snapping between the boy and the gravel. Just unbelievable levels of tension and fear over almost nothing. This was nowhere near the level of craziness she's been around in the past, which is why I feel like this was definitely a backslide. She used to go to festivals, and sure be a little nervous, but she was okay. This was like.. 5 people in a quiet garden and she was beside herself.
Fast forward, we decide to go for a hike, and we get to a nice field with no one around to take her off leash. She does great, hangs out with us, does lots of sniffing, really enjoys herself. After she gets the burst of energy out, we hit the trails. There are... a lot... of dogs. Now, the prong has helped a lot. We can kinda just keep moving. She gets very agitated and reactive, but not having the same kind of melt down as before. Once we pass the dogs, she recovers quickly -- all good signs of slow improvement. She seems to be really enjoying walking again, and the whole walk we were mostly alone, and she was so happy.
Where this falls apart is towards the end of the walk and we are heading back to the car. There is a beautiful spaniel with a radio collar (clearly a well-trained hunting dog) walking down the path in the opposite direction. When I say this dog was perfect, this dog was perfect. Completely non-reactive, small white dog, gentle, perfectly trained. Eris was already in a Down/Stay for other reasons when they walked by. I said, "beautiful dog!" to the guy, and he says "you too!" as he walks past. Eris LEAPS up from her Down/Stay, runs across the path to attack that little dog. I think if she hadn't hit the end of my leash and he hadn't been so fast on pulling his dog away, she would have made contact and probably tried to kill it.
We were just... speechless. She's never done this before. She's acted out of fear aggression when dogs come up to sniff her or if they touch her. But she has never been the one to close the gap before. On top of that, she's never disobeyed from a down/stay like that, nor has she ever gone for a dog in such a violent way. Luckily, the little dog was safe, but holy s**t. We were just... shaking and shocked. Speechless.
We got back to the car and just sat there for a bit, a thousand things going through our heads. This is not just a 'bad day.' This was an entirely novel behavior worse than anything I've ever seen. What concerns us most is that, this wasn't the normal target. She's always been nervous around larger dogs, but this was a dog about the same size and colors of our little Aussie at home. If you remember from my first post, she's already attacked my 50 lb male setter multiple times last year. So she has a precedent for attacking the dogs she lives with. If she went for our 18 lb senior mini Aussie, she'd kill her in a heartbeat.
I can't help but also focus on how her reactivity towards children has gotten worse in the last 6 months, not better, and she has not had a single bad experience. She's lunged at an adult jogger, and the way she was looking at those kids, crouched down like she wanted to go for them, is really bad. Really scary.
This isn't to say I think she's a lost cause, it's more that I'm not sure I have the right household to work with her, due to the fact she has attacked dogs in her household in the past and has now shown she will attack a little dog too, and the main thing that I have neighbors on both sides of my house with very little kids who run around outside. The thought of her escaping even once with one of those little girls outside, I shudder to think what could happen.
So, I want to also mention some behaviors around the house I haven't really talked about that I don't think have improved, if anything, gotten worse:
1. She was raised with 2 cats, and in the 2 years she's lived with them, she still chases them, corners them, puts her mouth on them, etc. She stalks them like a predator and even though they have swatted her many times, it only amps her up more. I personally have never had a dog that was raised with cats who acted like this. Even my setter, who was NOT raised with cats and has a strong prey drive, took about 6 months to warm up to the cats, and now he will cuddle with them. Eris is still not good with cats, and I feel really bad for the cats being constantly terrorized by her.
2. Eris paces incessantly. If she is not sleeping, she is pacing. If she isn't pacing, she's chasing the cats or she's harassing my Setter to play with her even though he doesn't want to (ever since she attacked him, he doesn't want to play with her, which is reasonable tbh lol). But mostly, she has this constant anxious energy that puts everyone in the house on edge. As soon as we put her outside, the whole household -- 2 cats, 2 humans, and 2 dogs -- just exhales and turns into a giant cuddle pile together. As soon as she comes back in, they scatter and hide. She is like this tornado that casts this oppressive low-level unending anxiety in the house. Heck, yesterday, we were watching TV, and some dogs showed up in some B-roll footage. NO AUDIO, but she SAW the dogs, shot up out of her place next to us and started searching around the TV trying to get the dogs. A jingling sound on the TV had her hackles up, growling and stalking around the house. She's never been this before... if anything, her constant state of fight or flight is worse, even if her behavior on walks is better. When I say we are all exhausted from being hypervigilant, waiting for her to fight with a dog or chase a cat.. we are... bloody exhausted. Last night, she was so bad and we needed a break, we gave her a 1/3 of a dose of Trazadone just so she'd rest.
I am at the point where I think the only option left is behavioral medication for anxiety or maybe even COD or OCD. One of my trainers is not a fan of medication. His opinions are that if the dog's issues cant be resolved with behavioral modification/training, then the dog is too much of a liability. He's more of a believer in finding homes for the thousands of excellent dogs with no issues, rather than struggling with a dog with issues that could (and will) inevitably cause some kind of harm (if they haven't already). It's a rather cold and calculating view, but I understand it. I myself have been the victim of a vicious dog attack by a person who knew her dog had a bite history but refused to be realistic about it. She gave him chance after chance, and even after he nearly maimed my face, she refused to realize that this isn't fair to anyone, no less the dog. So I find myself in a position where I need to decide how many chances I give Eris, how many options are even left. Medication is the only thing we haven't tried.
My other trainer has been in both places, one with a dog with rage syndrome that after 5 years of struggling, many bites and dog attacks, she had to euthanize. The other was going down the same route, but she put her on behavioral meds and it made a world of difference. She wants me to try the meds first, and I think that's a reasonable ask.
What it comes down to though is... even if the meds help a lot, I'm not sure MY household is ideal for rehabilitating her. There is also the possibility that her first trainers were right and that it could just come down to bad breeding, and this is not fixable in the long run. (May be of note, another dog from her litter had severe deformities we later found out, so who knows).
She may get to a point where she can live in an only-dog home with no cats and a big yard and be happy as can be. Unfortunately, my household is everything but that.
So... what now?
At the moment, I'm going to discuss the situation with her trainers and get their professional opinions as to what they think is going to set Eris up for success. If that's not with me, I accept that. I am a believer that ethical pet ownership is putting human safety first regardless of how much of an ego-hit it is or how much money is invested. Second is the other animals' safety. And third, the dog's health and happiness.
Fortunately, I already had a vet appointment scheduled for her on Friday where I will discuss my interest in behavioral medication. We aren't giving up yet.
Sorry this wasn't the best update, but I'm just keeping it real for y'all.
Not the update I wanted to be making. Progress is never linear and setbacks are to be expected; this, however, was more than a typical set back.
Eris has been doing well overall. Taking her out on walks, even letting her off-leash in places no one is around has been good for her. A lot of the underlying issues aren't resolved or even really improved much, BUT the main issues of being able to go on walks has seemed to be a lot better. That is, until this last weekend...
Two things happened that have me very concerned. First, my roommate and I were at a native plant sale and we brought Eris along for some low key exposure. She's gone to nurseries before and done well. This time there were two children -- maybe 9 to 11 years old -- that she did NOT like. The girl was okay, she was very slow moving and kept her distance, but the boy was observably Autistic. He would jump or skip around like 30 feet away from us. Several times Eris wheeled on him defensively. She didn't quite "lunge," but there were a few times that had I not had a firm grip of the leash, that I think she would have run him down -- I don't want to think about what she might have done if she had. I want to believe she wouldn't bite - she never has shown that inclination, but she plays rough and tends to nip and jump at people/dogs when playing. On the other hand, the way she was watching the boy wasn't in a playful way, it was in a defensive posture, unpredictable, that empty-eyed predatory look.
On top of that, some adults were sitting on a porch swing, tossing little pebbles here and there, and that was bothering her, of all things. Every stone that clacked, she'd swivel, her head snapping between the boy and the gravel. Just unbelievable levels of tension and fear over almost nothing. This was nowhere near the level of craziness she's been around in the past, which is why I feel like this was definitely a backslide. She used to go to festivals, and sure be a little nervous, but she was okay. This was like.. 5 people in a quiet garden and she was beside herself.
Fast forward, we decide to go for a hike, and we get to a nice field with no one around to take her off leash. She does great, hangs out with us, does lots of sniffing, really enjoys herself. After she gets the burst of energy out, we hit the trails. There are... a lot... of dogs. Now, the prong has helped a lot. We can kinda just keep moving. She gets very agitated and reactive, but not having the same kind of melt down as before. Once we pass the dogs, she recovers quickly -- all good signs of slow improvement. She seems to be really enjoying walking again, and the whole walk we were mostly alone, and she was so happy.
Where this falls apart is towards the end of the walk and we are heading back to the car. There is a beautiful spaniel with a radio collar (clearly a well-trained hunting dog) walking down the path in the opposite direction. When I say this dog was perfect, this dog was perfect. Completely non-reactive, small white dog, gentle, perfectly trained. Eris was already in a Down/Stay for other reasons when they walked by. I said, "beautiful dog!" to the guy, and he says "you too!" as he walks past. Eris LEAPS up from her Down/Stay, runs across the path to attack that little dog. I think if she hadn't hit the end of my leash and he hadn't been so fast on pulling his dog away, she would have made contact and probably tried to kill it.
We were just... speechless. She's never done this before. She's acted out of fear aggression when dogs come up to sniff her or if they touch her. But she has never been the one to close the gap before. On top of that, she's never disobeyed from a down/stay like that, nor has she ever gone for a dog in such a violent way. Luckily, the little dog was safe, but holy s**t. We were just... shaking and shocked. Speechless.
We got back to the car and just sat there for a bit, a thousand things going through our heads. This is not just a 'bad day.' This was an entirely novel behavior worse than anything I've ever seen. What concerns us most is that, this wasn't the normal target. She's always been nervous around larger dogs, but this was a dog about the same size and colors of our little Aussie at home. If you remember from my first post, she's already attacked my 50 lb male setter multiple times last year. So she has a precedent for attacking the dogs she lives with. If she went for our 18 lb senior mini Aussie, she'd kill her in a heartbeat.
I can't help but also focus on how her reactivity towards children has gotten worse in the last 6 months, not better, and she has not had a single bad experience. She's lunged at an adult jogger, and the way she was looking at those kids, crouched down like she wanted to go for them, is really bad. Really scary.
This isn't to say I think she's a lost cause, it's more that I'm not sure I have the right household to work with her, due to the fact she has attacked dogs in her household in the past and has now shown she will attack a little dog too, and the main thing that I have neighbors on both sides of my house with very little kids who run around outside. The thought of her escaping even once with one of those little girls outside, I shudder to think what could happen.
So, I want to also mention some behaviors around the house I haven't really talked about that I don't think have improved, if anything, gotten worse:
1. She was raised with 2 cats, and in the 2 years she's lived with them, she still chases them, corners them, puts her mouth on them, etc. She stalks them like a predator and even though they have swatted her many times, it only amps her up more. I personally have never had a dog that was raised with cats who acted like this. Even my setter, who was NOT raised with cats and has a strong prey drive, took about 6 months to warm up to the cats, and now he will cuddle with them. Eris is still not good with cats, and I feel really bad for the cats being constantly terrorized by her.
2. Eris paces incessantly. If she is not sleeping, she is pacing. If she isn't pacing, she's chasing the cats or she's harassing my Setter to play with her even though he doesn't want to (ever since she attacked him, he doesn't want to play with her, which is reasonable tbh lol). But mostly, she has this constant anxious energy that puts everyone in the house on edge. As soon as we put her outside, the whole household -- 2 cats, 2 humans, and 2 dogs -- just exhales and turns into a giant cuddle pile together. As soon as she comes back in, they scatter and hide. She is like this tornado that casts this oppressive low-level unending anxiety in the house. Heck, yesterday, we were watching TV, and some dogs showed up in some B-roll footage. NO AUDIO, but she SAW the dogs, shot up out of her place next to us and started searching around the TV trying to get the dogs. A jingling sound on the TV had her hackles up, growling and stalking around the house. She's never been this before... if anything, her constant state of fight or flight is worse, even if her behavior on walks is better. When I say we are all exhausted from being hypervigilant, waiting for her to fight with a dog or chase a cat.. we are... bloody exhausted. Last night, she was so bad and we needed a break, we gave her a 1/3 of a dose of Trazadone just so she'd rest.
I am at the point where I think the only option left is behavioral medication for anxiety or maybe even COD or OCD. One of my trainers is not a fan of medication. His opinions are that if the dog's issues cant be resolved with behavioral modification/training, then the dog is too much of a liability. He's more of a believer in finding homes for the thousands of excellent dogs with no issues, rather than struggling with a dog with issues that could (and will) inevitably cause some kind of harm (if they haven't already). It's a rather cold and calculating view, but I understand it. I myself have been the victim of a vicious dog attack by a person who knew her dog had a bite history but refused to be realistic about it. She gave him chance after chance, and even after he nearly maimed my face, she refused to realize that this isn't fair to anyone, no less the dog. So I find myself in a position where I need to decide how many chances I give Eris, how many options are even left. Medication is the only thing we haven't tried.
My other trainer has been in both places, one with a dog with rage syndrome that after 5 years of struggling, many bites and dog attacks, she had to euthanize. The other was going down the same route, but she put her on behavioral meds and it made a world of difference. She wants me to try the meds first, and I think that's a reasonable ask.
What it comes down to though is... even if the meds help a lot, I'm not sure MY household is ideal for rehabilitating her. There is also the possibility that her first trainers were right and that it could just come down to bad breeding, and this is not fixable in the long run. (May be of note, another dog from her litter had severe deformities we later found out, so who knows).
She may get to a point where she can live in an only-dog home with no cats and a big yard and be happy as can be. Unfortunately, my household is everything but that.
So... what now?
At the moment, I'm going to discuss the situation with her trainers and get their professional opinions as to what they think is going to set Eris up for success. If that's not with me, I accept that. I am a believer that ethical pet ownership is putting human safety first regardless of how much of an ego-hit it is or how much money is invested. Second is the other animals' safety. And third, the dog's health and happiness.
Fortunately, I already had a vet appointment scheduled for her on Friday where I will discuss my interest in behavioral medication. We aren't giving up yet.
Sorry this wasn't the best update, but I'm just keeping it real for y'all.
Liminalist
Jr Member
I think it might be worth mentioning as well, that from the day we brought her home, my roommate and I noticed some of these weird behaviors. At the time, we didn't know what was normal for doberman puppies, and we kept being told that they're tough until about 11-18 months old. But really, she's always been like this. The difference is that before we could at least take her on walks and such. But it wasn't until she started attacking Byron and we could barely take her outside did we go "okay, this is NOT normal. What the HELL is going on."
My trainers all think the eCollar wasn't the root cause but rather exacerbated an underlying issue. That is, it says on the box, do not use with anxious or aggressive dogs. If she was born with these issues, the eCollar probably was probably just the breaking point. One thinks its bad breeding, one thinks its probably COD/OCD and needs medication, and the other I'll talk to tomorrow and let y'all know what he thinks.
My trainers all think the eCollar wasn't the root cause but rather exacerbated an underlying issue. That is, it says on the box, do not use with anxious or aggressive dogs. If she was born with these issues, the eCollar probably was probably just the breaking point. One thinks its bad breeding, one thinks its probably COD/OCD and needs medication, and the other I'll talk to tomorrow and let y'all know what he thinks.
So sorry you had to experience that, it sounds terrifying and difficult. I think you're asking the right questions about what next and if yours is the right home.
I sorta agree with one of your trainers; yes, resources to dogs that are treatable and can live relatively normal dog lives, please. Not endlessly try to fix or manage ones that are none of those things. But, I don't think trialing meds is doing that at this point -- I think its an tool you haven't tried yet.
However, if it fails to significantly improve things, the question is more grave I fear. I would have to give her up, personally; I'm not that home she needs. Which is not to say you're not -- but I applaud you for both what you have tried so far and for being willing to consider that you might not be. Hoping things improve for your family.
I sorta agree with one of your trainers; yes, resources to dogs that are treatable and can live relatively normal dog lives, please. Not endlessly try to fix or manage ones that are none of those things. But, I don't think trialing meds is doing that at this point -- I think its an tool you haven't tried yet.
However, if it fails to significantly improve things, the question is more grave I fear. I would have to give her up, personally; I'm not that home she needs. Which is not to say you're not -- but I applaud you for both what you have tried so far and for being willing to consider that you might not be. Hoping things improve for your family.
I really feel for you going through all this. You are a good writer and I kind of felt as though I was in the room as you described the little breathers you get while she's not in the room, and that part really hit me. While the cause of why she is the way she is, is still unknown, I really want to say that I truly admire all the efforts you are giving her. Most other households would have given up long ago, but here you guys are, sticking with her.
I think discussing meds with her vet is a good move for where you are at as a household. If it were me, and the vet is on board, I would jump at the chance to try them. Then you will be able to gauge better, based on her level of improvement, whether your home is right for her rehabilitation. It's nothing you can know today, but you'll be able to decide then. I can't think of other options that have been exhausted, from what you have written. In my mind, you're doing all the right things and are looking at everything through a very realistic lens. Your home may or may not be what she needs moving forward, but I think she can thank her stars that she's had you till now and hopefully through a try at meds.
I think discussing meds with her vet is a good move for where you are at as a household. If it were me, and the vet is on board, I would jump at the chance to try them. Then you will be able to gauge better, based on her level of improvement, whether your home is right for her rehabilitation. It's nothing you can know today, but you'll be able to decide then. I can't think of other options that have been exhausted, from what you have written. In my mind, you're doing all the right things and are looking at everything through a very realistic lens. Your home may or may not be what she needs moving forward, but I think she can thank her stars that she's had you till now and hopefully through a try at meds.
Kswoodssue
Hot Topics Subscriber
I have had dogs my entire life. I am 67. 3 years ago we got a Doberman, and everything was different. I came onto this site, looking for answers to control the wild banshee we had brought into our home. Folks like @Ravenbird and @Ddski5 and others were so very helpful. At 3, Sasha is the best dog we have ever had. Hands down. BUT! She is a Doberman. She alerts to people that are “different” or out of the ordinary. She does not have a mean bone in her body, but she is constantly vigilant, and her assessments of danger are not always on target. She is rough, hates cats, and tried to take down my father in law’s pit bull. ( Only tried, as my husband had her on a tight leash.) She could not tolerate another dog in my husband’s shop. That said, we adore her. We understand her, but she is not the companion you trust completely with other dogs, strange children, etc. That is not excusing your dog’s behavior, or saying that it is acceptable or even normal. In fact, it sounds pretty scary for you. What I would ask myself is “Am I bonded with this dog?”, “Am I living a lifestyle in which my dog and myself can be happy?”. If you know you can never 100% trust your dog not to be reactive, can you live with that? There is no shame in answering “no” to any of those questions. Perhaps someone with reactive Doberman experience, and lots of time to spare, could make a great home for your dog. I hope that you will be successful, and I wish you nothing but the best.
Liminalist
Jr Member
You guys are all so kind. Just to paint a picture, here's some more context, because I'm writing out my feelings to cope right now:
Byron
The reality is that I got my first dog (Byron, the setter) to be my hiking/camping/travel companion but he got diagnosed with a terminal heart condition (severe PDA and a mitro valve deformity, plus a severe arrhythmia). The vet gave Byron a max of few months to live. I spent $10,000 trying to save his life, but both heart surgeries failed, and the best we could do was put him on a load of meds and make him comfortable.
The thought of just watching my dog die indefinitely and not being able to take him hiking anymore, broke my heart. I decided to go ahead and get my dream dog (Eris) as a puppy, so that 6-8 months later, Byron will have passed on and she'll be my new hobby dog. That was TWO years ago and Byron is still in congestive heart failure but otherwise alive and thriving. The hospital said he's literally broken every record of a dog surviving this severe of a PDA. They called him a "miracle dog" because the cardiologists can't figure out how he's still alive.
Unfortunately, these last 2 years of unexpected lifespan have been spent 100% dealing with Eris' problems. His once peaceful home is a ball of anxious energy and he doesn't get the dedicated attention he deserves. I don't regret getting Eris, b/c we couldn't have known, but I really didn't want 2 dogs at the same time. I just wouldn't have gotten a second dog if I'd known it would take my time/energy away from Byron for this long. Then she starts attacking him too? Like... come on. The fact Byron has endured all of this is testament to how strong he is.
Life
The other part of this equation is the simple fact that, yeah, I got Byron (and then Eris) for my hobbies. It is quite clear that she is not able to do those things, or if she is, it's going to be a very long haul and I'm not sure I've got the environment or skillset to tackle it.
I just want to take my dog hiking. It's been 5 years, 2 dogs, 3 trainers and almost $20,000+ of total pet-related expenses and I still can't take one dog on a simple relaxing walk. Bleeding out money and time and I'm no closer to having a dog I can go hiking with than I was half a decade ago when I got Byron at 5 months old. I was 27 when I got Byron with the intention to get more serious about my hobbies, especially during the Pandemic with not much to do. I'm 32 now and I'm still basically at square one, but now with no savings account left.
My heart kind of keeps going back to Byron and the guilt I feel bringing Eris into the picture, making him live through this when he has so little time left. It's probably pretty obvious from how I write that I'm struggling with it. I'm trying to work through the fear, the guilt, the sadness. I'm angry, not at Eris or the vets or anything, just at the fact I've bled my savings and 5 years of my life to make this one small dream come true -- to go camping with my dog, that's it. That's all I want to do. Eris was my dream dog. Twenty years of wanting a Doberman and I was finally just going to make it happen. Womp, womp.
My roommate texted me a few minutes ago to say she can't stop thinking about the attack this weekend. She keeps playing it over and over in her head, because it was terrifying. It was a vicious aggression that there was no reason for. She afraid of her now, afraid for her cats and her little Aussie. This isn't how it was supposed to be.
Sorry for the rambling. Trying to wrap my head around it. Trying to make sense of the plan, how we got here, and what to do next. (besides meds of course, that's a given) Thanks again to all the support. It's good to not feel so alone.
Byron
The reality is that I got my first dog (Byron, the setter) to be my hiking/camping/travel companion but he got diagnosed with a terminal heart condition (severe PDA and a mitro valve deformity, plus a severe arrhythmia). The vet gave Byron a max of few months to live. I spent $10,000 trying to save his life, but both heart surgeries failed, and the best we could do was put him on a load of meds and make him comfortable.
The thought of just watching my dog die indefinitely and not being able to take him hiking anymore, broke my heart. I decided to go ahead and get my dream dog (Eris) as a puppy, so that 6-8 months later, Byron will have passed on and she'll be my new hobby dog. That was TWO years ago and Byron is still in congestive heart failure but otherwise alive and thriving. The hospital said he's literally broken every record of a dog surviving this severe of a PDA. They called him a "miracle dog" because the cardiologists can't figure out how he's still alive.
Unfortunately, these last 2 years of unexpected lifespan have been spent 100% dealing with Eris' problems. His once peaceful home is a ball of anxious energy and he doesn't get the dedicated attention he deserves. I don't regret getting Eris, b/c we couldn't have known, but I really didn't want 2 dogs at the same time. I just wouldn't have gotten a second dog if I'd known it would take my time/energy away from Byron for this long. Then she starts attacking him too? Like... come on. The fact Byron has endured all of this is testament to how strong he is.
Life
The other part of this equation is the simple fact that, yeah, I got Byron (and then Eris) for my hobbies. It is quite clear that she is not able to do those things, or if she is, it's going to be a very long haul and I'm not sure I've got the environment or skillset to tackle it.
I just want to take my dog hiking. It's been 5 years, 2 dogs, 3 trainers and almost $20,000+ of total pet-related expenses and I still can't take one dog on a simple relaxing walk. Bleeding out money and time and I'm no closer to having a dog I can go hiking with than I was half a decade ago when I got Byron at 5 months old. I was 27 when I got Byron with the intention to get more serious about my hobbies, especially during the Pandemic with not much to do. I'm 32 now and I'm still basically at square one, but now with no savings account left.
My heart kind of keeps going back to Byron and the guilt I feel bringing Eris into the picture, making him live through this when he has so little time left. It's probably pretty obvious from how I write that I'm struggling with it. I'm trying to work through the fear, the guilt, the sadness. I'm angry, not at Eris or the vets or anything, just at the fact I've bled my savings and 5 years of my life to make this one small dream come true -- to go camping with my dog, that's it. That's all I want to do. Eris was my dream dog. Twenty years of wanting a Doberman and I was finally just going to make it happen. Womp, womp.
My roommate texted me a few minutes ago to say she can't stop thinking about the attack this weekend. She keeps playing it over and over in her head, because it was terrifying. It was a vicious aggression that there was no reason for. She afraid of her now, afraid for her cats and her little Aussie. This isn't how it was supposed to be.
Sorry for the rambling. Trying to wrap my head around it. Trying to make sense of the plan, how we got here, and what to do next. (besides meds of course, that's a given) Thanks again to all the support. It's good to not feel so alone.
Man, that's a lot to unpack, of stuff going on behind the scenes and the time leading up to now.
Don't ever apologize for venting....you are in such a sad situation. I have dealt with Rage Syndrom and a different dog with reactivity...but not to the degree that you are experiencing. I was able to train the reactive boy to 'tolerate' situations that he did not like, and did alot of private training etc. to get him in the show ring to succeed at performance sports. He was not agressive to our cats, or our other doberman. I feel so badly for you in your situation...especially your heart for Byron.
What a tough call. I personally would not want to deal with another reactive doberman....I was much younger at the time, and don't have that mental energy anymore.
You write beautifully, and I thank you for sharing your experience....wish there was an answer for your circumstances.
The research I had done on Rage (20 years ago) said it was more common in males than females, but I have a friend that just had to put their doberman girl down due to it. Similar circumstance where the dog just continued to get worse with triggers. It's an awful thing to have to choose to do...but again; human safety as you mentioned...these dobermans move fast, and it happens in a second and can have deadly results
What a tough call. I personally would not want to deal with another reactive doberman....I was much younger at the time, and don't have that mental energy anymore.
You write beautifully, and I thank you for sharing your experience....wish there was an answer for your circumstances.
The research I had done on Rage (20 years ago) said it was more common in males than females, but I have a friend that just had to put their doberman girl down due to it. Similar circumstance where the dog just continued to get worse with triggers. It's an awful thing to have to choose to do...but again; human safety as you mentioned...these dobermans move fast, and it happens in a second and can have deadly results
I think @Kswoodssue nails it…
I think you have yourself an “outlier” Doberman. The one nobody thinks they will get when they picture themselves having a Doberman and when they get it, it’s like what kind of demon hell hound is this?? This is not what I wanted, not what I signed up for.
My Ragnar was like yours, just Mach 12 hair on fire hyper reactive to dogs/cats and hyper vigilant to everything else. I can’t tell you how many times my wife shook her head at me and questioned- what the hell have you gotten yourself into? He took every ounce of energy and time from me in order to obedience train him to a level of control. I loved taking him out in the public because he was a beautiful specimen of a Doberman and he really needed the experience and desensitization but damn was it stressful…I was always on alert, head on a swivel, planning which way to go if a dog comes or child comes running. He never attacked a child but he was always alert and poised for who knows what and because I really did not know for sure, I never gave him the opportunity.
I really hate to say it because I loved that asshat..he was my boy and I dedicated a shitload of time to him but I truly did not know how stressful life was with him until he passed away. Things became so much more normalized, I got another Doberman- one that is less jacked up with a great on/off switch that is eager to please and looks at me for guidance.
I am sorry to say but imho, Eris is not the right Doberman for you. Medication or not, you would be a fool to ever let your guard down for one second. You cannot become lax- as with the Spaniel or jogger, or little kid that comes flying around the corner with no warning. You have to be 5 steps ahead of him both mentally and physically…
So sorry…I feel for you because a Doberman was my dream also. To have a Doberman to run with and go to soccer practice…I know how you feel. If things don’t work out with Eris, don’t lose your dream. Find a good breeder, find that dream pup that will be your great companion and best friend. And in the end know that you did everything in your capacity and everything possible for Eris.
I think you have yourself an “outlier” Doberman. The one nobody thinks they will get when they picture themselves having a Doberman and when they get it, it’s like what kind of demon hell hound is this?? This is not what I wanted, not what I signed up for.
My Ragnar was like yours, just Mach 12 hair on fire hyper reactive to dogs/cats and hyper vigilant to everything else. I can’t tell you how many times my wife shook her head at me and questioned- what the hell have you gotten yourself into? He took every ounce of energy and time from me in order to obedience train him to a level of control. I loved taking him out in the public because he was a beautiful specimen of a Doberman and he really needed the experience and desensitization but damn was it stressful…I was always on alert, head on a swivel, planning which way to go if a dog comes or child comes running. He never attacked a child but he was always alert and poised for who knows what and because I really did not know for sure, I never gave him the opportunity.
I really hate to say it because I loved that asshat..he was my boy and I dedicated a shitload of time to him but I truly did not know how stressful life was with him until he passed away. Things became so much more normalized, I got another Doberman- one that is less jacked up with a great on/off switch that is eager to please and looks at me for guidance.
I am sorry to say but imho, Eris is not the right Doberman for you. Medication or not, you would be a fool to ever let your guard down for one second. You cannot become lax- as with the Spaniel or jogger, or little kid that comes flying around the corner with no warning. You have to be 5 steps ahead of him both mentally and physically…
This guy has a point…you cannot continue to modify your entire present day life for a Doberman that does not fit in your lifestyle. He does not want another dog around, he doesn’t like the antics of kids, joggers irritate him so he lunges….It’s literally trying to tame an adult Lion from Africa. There’s just too much in him that you cannot control- maybe somebody can but you can’t. And to believe that you can is a huge mistake. Sorry, not trying to be rude just trying to be real with all you’ve posted. It shouldn’t be this stressful, this emergent, this chaotic with drastic decision having to be made.
So sorry…I feel for you because a Doberman was my dream also. To have a Doberman to run with and go to soccer practice…I know how you feel. If things don’t work out with Eris, don’t lose your dream. Find a good breeder, find that dream pup that will be your great companion and best friend. And in the end know that you did everything in your capacity and everything possible for Eris.
LifeofRubie
Moderator
I am reading all this and trying to arrange my own thoughts... I have a dog who needs special considerations to thrive but we can manage it and our lifestyle accommodates it and, more importantly, I KNOW what sets her off and she's predictable.
Being unpredictable is scary.
I agree your home, even with your intent and commitment and time and money, perhaps is not the best for Eris and that has NOTHING to do with you. I think you're right; you'd see progress somewhere if this was right situation.
Camping with my dogs is one of the single biggest joys of my life. I felt that real deep when you mentioned that that is ALL you wanted and it still seems unachievable even after all this time and work.
Not a trainer, not an expert, have not experienced your challenges. But it doesn't sound suitable for every one and creature involved
Being unpredictable is scary.
I agree your home, even with your intent and commitment and time and money, perhaps is not the best for Eris and that has NOTHING to do with you. I think you're right; you'd see progress somewhere if this was right situation.
Camping with my dogs is one of the single biggest joys of my life. I felt that real deep when you mentioned that that is ALL you wanted and it still seems unachievable even after all this time and work.
Not a trainer, not an expert, have not experienced your challenges. But it doesn't sound suitable for every one and creature involved
On my 8th Dober girl now and have never felt the need for an E collar.
And never will have the 'need' for one...
It is a shame.
You have a likely completely normal Doberman (falls well within the 'normal' range of behavior for the breed) and you are wanting to medicate it into a different type of dog...
You could likely train her more and desesitize her to almost anything but it seems as if you are choosing to go the medication route instead.
Liminalist
Jr Member
No, that is incorrect. You can read all of the previous entries and see she's been in training for a year and a half by myself and 3 other professionals. Two of which specialize in Doberman. I totally understand where you're coming from though if someone hadn't done all of the training though. Medication is always the very very last option when all else has failed. I appreciate your concern though!It is a shame.
You have a likely completely normal Doberman (falls well within the 'normal' range of behavior for the breed) and you are wanting to medicate it into a different type of dog...
You could likely train her more and desesitize her to almost anything but it seems as if you are choosing to go the medication route instead.
Liminalist
Jr Member
Yeah... to be fair the only thing I specifically asked the trainers for was bomb-proof recall, and I thought the eCollar was supposed to be for that. When I got her back from the trainers though, I learned that the eCollar was used to correct everything. Not what I expected, and also I wasn't given a long term plan for how to use it. Like do we wean off of it? Do I stop using it or is this forever? What purpose does the eCollar serve a year from now, 3 years from now, etc? Next time I get a dog trained, I'll have a lot more questions for them, especially on the tools they use.On my 8th Dober girl now and have never felt the need for an E collar.
And never will have the 'need' for one...
I appreciate your update and openness. I'm one of the "other ones" here who dealt with a Doberman that was just way over the threshold and have a lot in common with @Ddski5 regarding how I dealt with it and the outcome has been 110% rewarding. I have so many questions it would be like another training session here - we can't possibly see what you are seeing even with your well worded stories.
Please don't take my questions/statements as an accusation that you are not doing things right. You are giving it all you've got, my hat's off to you for reaching out and wanting to learn. I'm just hesitant to give you advice when I'm not sure what you've already tried.
My first question is going back to square one: What consequences did Eris have when harassing the cats? She is 2 years old now and has never left the cats alone and seems to rule the house making everyone uncomfortable.
When she paces non stop why can't you tell her to LAY DOWN. You've been through obedience training, she should know that command and have a bed on the floor (not on the couch) that is her place and her place only (other dogs should not share her bed). You say "get in your bed" and that's where she is and stays while you eat dinner, watch tv, do chores etc. There is no cat chasing, harassing the other dog, pacing, nothing but being on the bed. If she gets off her place there is correction. Every Single Time.
I'm a big e-collar fan. What kind of collar do you have? This is an important question! Cheaper models can turn a sensitive dog inside out. - there could be many reasons why this didn't work for you and I do understand that some people/dogs may not work well with them. But I've personally never seen a single one that couldn't learn and respect e-collar training.
I could go on, but I'm a little short of time this morning. Know that I hold you in high regard for wanting to do the best for your dog but you also have to do the best for your household. I don't condemn anyone for giving up if the fit is not right. Sorry, I can't recall if you have discussed with her breeder - is she willing to take the dog back? I personally would consider that before medication.
Quickly addressing what you just posted:
Please don't take my questions/statements as an accusation that you are not doing things right. You are giving it all you've got, my hat's off to you for reaching out and wanting to learn. I'm just hesitant to give you advice when I'm not sure what you've already tried.
My first question is going back to square one: What consequences did Eris have when harassing the cats? She is 2 years old now and has never left the cats alone and seems to rule the house making everyone uncomfortable.
When she paces non stop why can't you tell her to LAY DOWN. You've been through obedience training, she should know that command and have a bed on the floor (not on the couch) that is her place and her place only (other dogs should not share her bed). You say "get in your bed" and that's where she is and stays while you eat dinner, watch tv, do chores etc. There is no cat chasing, harassing the other dog, pacing, nothing but being on the bed. If she gets off her place there is correction. Every Single Time.
I'm a big e-collar fan. What kind of collar do you have? This is an important question! Cheaper models can turn a sensitive dog inside out. - there could be many reasons why this didn't work for you and I do understand that some people/dogs may not work well with them. But I've personally never seen a single one that couldn't learn and respect e-collar training.
Did Eris pay for this misbehavior? Did you correct her? Explain in no uncertain terms that even looking in the direction of that child is not allowed? Never ever let it get to that point, especially if you see her begin to get anxious. Same with the little dog that walked by. No matter how good she may be, put yourself between her and anyone (dog or not) and do not look at the person/dog yourself. Watch Your Own Dog. As @Ddski5 mentions, head-on-a-swivel - yes! - but as you observe your surroundings, keep your eyes on Eris. My worst outbursts from my dog happened when I was yapping with a friend, my dog was next to me on leash, totally relaxed and I "forgot about her" for a short minute. While I wasn't looking a person walking toward us, a dog walking by, something - anything! - would happen to catch her eye and set her off. I learned because my dog was my best teacher: correct behavior before it escalates. My dog is super sensitive to staring. A stranger walking toward us at the park just to say "what a pretty dog", is totally innocent, but as they walk toward us they are staring at her. If I don't notice the person looking at her, or notice my dog stiffening up, it will turn to explosive barking. If I'm not in a sports trial setting she is always wearing a prong collar and/or and e-collar. I can use the vibrate on the e-collar just to get her focus re-set, or just a tiny pop on the prong collar works, but she's 5 now. When she was 2 it was insanely difficult to be on top of things.
I could go on, but I'm a little short of time this morning. Know that I hold you in high regard for wanting to do the best for your dog but you also have to do the best for your household. I don't condemn anyone for giving up if the fit is not right. Sorry, I can't recall if you have discussed with her breeder - is she willing to take the dog back? I personally would consider that before medication.
Quickly addressing what you just posted:
I never needed an e-collar before my current dog. A year into using it I would not leave home without it. I have an incredibly willful dog, strong as an ox and she has impeccable obedience. But if she gets amped up over something it can quickly go south and the e-collar is simply a safety belt. For both of us. I think I cried when I was told "with your dog, you probably won't be able to wean her off of it". I thought it would get us through the hard times and then she'd be good to go. Assuming your Eris is just a super-hard dog and not borderline Rage Syndrome (I don't think she is), it is a literal life saver for dogs. Dogs get euthanized for bite history, and believe me proper training with an e-collar convinces them that they'd rather stay with you than lunge at that little dog walking by. And no, I rarely ever have to push the button or crank it up. I just put it on her for a safety feature. At home if she's not settling on her bed after one or two verbal reminders, I just put the collar on her - I don't turn it on and the remote is still hanging on the hook. She will lay down and stay down without another word.
Liminalist
Jr Member
Wow thank you for the thoughtful response and advice. <3
Personally, I am in full agreement with you. I think that's spot-on advice, so much so, that it's exactly what we've been doing!. I could probably reply to each question, but each question's answer would be the same: Yep, that's what we've been doing.
From corrections, to rewards, to redirections, putting her in a 'place' or 'down' etc. We've done everything you've mentioned and more. I wish I could say there was a single thing in your post we haven't been trying, but the truth is, yeah all of it. It helps my roommate has like 15 years experience in dog rescue/rehab, works with her every day, and I used to work with rescue birds. Man, parrots are unforgiving with training. You mess up ONCE, and you're toast. Good luck ever training a bird not to cuss once they've gotten one good reinforcement for a cussword. So I'm consistent to an obsessive degree, from years of experience with behavioral problem macaws XD Normally I would say parrots are harder to train than dogs, but I would honestly say Eris is worse than any of the aggressive macaws I worked with in the past, and that's saying something.
To answer a few of the questions though:
Returning her to her breeder. So... I learned a lot more about that breeder in the months after I got her. Frankly, I wouldn't feel safe giving Eris back to her. I feel very confident that the breeder would just adopt her out to the first person and not tell them about these issues, and God, I can't imagine what would happen. I could still call, I just am worried.
What kind of ecollar? Mini Educator, and her level was about a 6. That was enough to cause her meltdowns, no joke. I'm going to agree with the trainers who said it's just not the right tool for her.
Thanks again for all the advice. I'm right there with you and fully am in agreement. <3
A really good write up from @Ravenbird asking some good questions. I find it surprising that with your experience with animal training, board/train and two separate dog/behavioral trainers that you continue on having major issues. You pretty much stated “yep, that’s what we have done” which tells me you have been diligent, consistent on all training fronts and know what you are doing.
But when I read through the parts of Eris getting amped up at the Spaniel, kids, jogger my mind starts asking
-what are you doing to prevent her from getting amped up? You should have the ability to identify her tells and talk her down or completely move her out of the situation.
-are you previously identifying the catalyst and prepared for the escalation that’s oncoming? If not then that’s a major problem of you not controlling the stimulus and environment
-Here comes the Spaniel, oh shit…where is Eris? What is she doing? She has eyes on the Spaniel- no no nope…Eris, you should be in a heel sit next to me, watching me the entire time until the spaniel passes. If not then we are up, backing out of the danger situation that is fixing to develop…
-are you training these things in a controlled environment? Starting in the less stimulating and slowly ramping up the stim/chaos according to her ability to be in control and adhere to obedience commands from you.
-adhering and being obedient to basic commands is absolutely imperative. If she is not sitting on the first command or into a sit or down when walking away from you then you are not spending enough time daily on obedience commands. Don’t mean to sound harsh but hard core obedience training and adherence is how you control her in questionable situations and that takes a shitload of time in the yard everyday. everyday….
I find it hard to believe you/your trainers don’t understand the above but then again don’t understand why your environment and stimulation is not in a manner for Eris success. You have to be able to identify the dangers (passive/active) before it ever becomes an emergent issue.
Again…you don’t have a Doberman in which you can remotely let your guard down. She is turned on and ready to go at all times and you have to be more turned on and 1000% more attentive if you are going to control/identify the behaviors you want to correct.
My Ragnar was 4 or 5 when he passed and he still chased our 3 house cats. It was something in which his prey drive was so magnified that if they looked at him funny…he stiffened, ears went up and it was on. I had to stop it as soon as they looked at him funny and force his attention to me to stop his inner prey drive amping up. It was a constant 24hr workload on me to keep the wild lion tamed in my household and public. That’s just who Ragnar was, a fricking asshat brute that easily ramped up and once maxed amped up, it was extremely hard to calm him down. Now my Freyja is not like that…she will amp up if I watch/let her but she is easily stopped and talked down.
But when I read through the parts of Eris getting amped up at the Spaniel, kids, jogger my mind starts asking
-what are you doing to prevent her from getting amped up? You should have the ability to identify her tells and talk her down or completely move her out of the situation.
-are you previously identifying the catalyst and prepared for the escalation that’s oncoming? If not then that’s a major problem of you not controlling the stimulus and environment
-Here comes the Spaniel, oh shit…where is Eris? What is she doing? She has eyes on the Spaniel- no no nope…Eris, you should be in a heel sit next to me, watching me the entire time until the spaniel passes. If not then we are up, backing out of the danger situation that is fixing to develop…
-are you training these things in a controlled environment? Starting in the less stimulating and slowly ramping up the stim/chaos according to her ability to be in control and adhere to obedience commands from you.
-adhering and being obedient to basic commands is absolutely imperative. If she is not sitting on the first command or into a sit or down when walking away from you then you are not spending enough time daily on obedience commands. Don’t mean to sound harsh but hard core obedience training and adherence is how you control her in questionable situations and that takes a shitload of time in the yard everyday. everyday….
I find it hard to believe you/your trainers don’t understand the above but then again don’t understand why your environment and stimulation is not in a manner for Eris success. You have to be able to identify the dangers (passive/active) before it ever becomes an emergent issue.
Again…you don’t have a Doberman in which you can remotely let your guard down. She is turned on and ready to go at all times and you have to be more turned on and 1000% more attentive if you are going to control/identify the behaviors you want to correct.
My Ragnar was 4 or 5 when he passed and he still chased our 3 house cats. It was something in which his prey drive was so magnified that if they looked at him funny…he stiffened, ears went up and it was on. I had to stop it as soon as they looked at him funny and force his attention to me to stop his inner prey drive amping up. It was a constant 24hr workload on me to keep the wild lion tamed in my household and public. That’s just who Ragnar was, a fricking asshat brute that easily ramped up and once maxed amped up, it was extremely hard to calm him down. Now my Freyja is not like that…she will amp up if I watch/let her but she is easily stopped and talked down.
Liminalist
Jr Member
Sure, I can reply to these!
-what are you doing to prevent her from getting amped up? You should have the ability to identify her tells and talk her down or completely move her out of the situation.
As soon as she sees anything - a person, a dog, a kid, a bike, a stroller, a scooter, a skateboard, etc. She goes off. The only option is to leave immediately or not go there in the first place. Right now, it's been to calmly keep moving to show that she can look to me as the leader and that I'll get her out of the situation safely. We don't linger in these places or make her face her fears. We direct her away from them, saying yes good girl! and get pats and such.
-are you previously identifying the catalyst and prepared for the escalation that’s oncoming? If not then that’s a major problem of you not controlling the stimulus and environment
Yes 100% of the time. We are constantly on high alert, head on a swivel. Its exhausting. We've been doing this for two years, so I know her tells instantly, and I know exactly what's coming. Not much you can do when on a hiking trail of course, aside from get off the trail and go away around. You can't ever 100% control your environment, I can only control myself and her. At the end of the day, a child can run up to her and I can put myself between them and try to leave, but there was nothing I could do to stop the child besides say hey stop, and try to disengage.
-Here comes the Spaniel, oh shit…where is Eris? What is she doing? She has eyes on the Spaniel- no no nope…Eris, you should be in a heel sit next to me, watching me the entire time until the spaniel passes. If not then we are up, backing out of the danger situation that is fixing to develop…
Eris is always in either a HEEL or a Down/STay. At the moment we were in a down/stay getting water. I had the leash firmly wrapped around one hand and ALSO my foot on the leash itself as additional restraint. She must ALWAYS be in some kind of control or command, always. Her eyes must be on me. But she looks away for one second, and it was just explosive aggression that Ive never seen before.
-are you training these things in a controlled environment? Starting in the less stimulating and slowly ramping up the stim/chaos according to her ability to be in control and adhere to obedience commands from you.
Yes, this is what we've been doing for the last 5 months daily.
-adhering and being obedient to basic commands is absolutely imperative. If she is not sitting on the first command or into a sit or down when walking away from you then you are not spending enough time daily on obedience commands. Don’t mean to sound harsh but hard core obedience training and adherence is how you control her in questionable situations and that takes a shitload of time in the yard everyday. everyday….
She always obeys on the first command and she never gets away with disobedience at all. We work with her multiple times a day ranging from 5 min to 30 minutes. Her obedience is flawless. Until it isn't, which is exactly why this was so shocking to us.
---
Hope that helps!
Liminalist
Jr Member
Talked to a few vets and my current trainer. I'm going to try to see if I can get in with a veterinary behaviorist, but holy shite are they expensive.
However, I am still left with the problem that my roommate no longer feels comfortable with Eris in the house given the number of attacks/injuries that have been caused by her to Byron and Ellie, which is reasonable. Dunno if I mentioned that Ellie has also had her face punctured, shoulder dislocated, and last week her tail broken by Eris chasing and tackling her, biting her, etc. This is on top of her attacking Byron multiple times.
Going back to the original post, this isn't just an issue with going on walks. We can get into the minutiae about training specifics, but that's sort of a tangential issue. The proximate one, in my mind, is that she is actively a risk to the safety of other animals and children around her. I would be SO down for a deep dive on training techniques if that's all we were dealing with.
I do truly appreciate all the tips though, and the thoughtfulness. I also think it's important to focus on Eris' well-being first and foremost right now more-so than her utility to go on walks. She needs to be able to feel safe in her own home, or else I don't think all this training is really going to matter, yknow?
However, I am still left with the problem that my roommate no longer feels comfortable with Eris in the house given the number of attacks/injuries that have been caused by her to Byron and Ellie, which is reasonable. Dunno if I mentioned that Ellie has also had her face punctured, shoulder dislocated, and last week her tail broken by Eris chasing and tackling her, biting her, etc. This is on top of her attacking Byron multiple times.
Going back to the original post, this isn't just an issue with going on walks. We can get into the minutiae about training specifics, but that's sort of a tangential issue. The proximate one, in my mind, is that she is actively a risk to the safety of other animals and children around her. I would be SO down for a deep dive on training techniques if that's all we were dealing with.
I do truly appreciate all the tips though, and the thoughtfulness. I also think it's important to focus on Eris' well-being first and foremost right now more-so than her utility to go on walks. She needs to be able to feel safe in her own home, or else I don't think all this training is really going to matter, yknow?
