Spay and heat cycles

[Katyusharocket]

There is a nice explainer at the bottom of Katyusha's test results, assuming they had the same test. Hope this is helpful. It was for me.

 

[Katyusharocket]

Now I’m wondering do I even spay her? The heats are not that serious and I am able to always be with her

If she isn't bothered and you aren't either, by her cycles, and you aren't under any contractual obligation to spay, I would sure consider not spaying. If you can always be with her then the risk of surprise litters is low or non-existent. Of course there could be other risks later like what Reckless just experienced, but I'm not sure on the chances of stuff like that happening..

 

[MichiH]

There is a nice explainer at the bottom of Katyusha's test results, assuming they had the same test. Hope this is helpful. It was for me.

Wow thank you for sharing Katy’s results. Yes, appears to be the same test.

Agree, at this point her heats are not an issue although, I do feel bad for her with false pregnancy symptoms. I need to address that next time. I think I am overwhelmed and frustrated with my vets experiences and need to take a break.

We as a family agree that we can manage her heats, it’s mostly my job, but they’re on board to help long term if that’s my decision to not spay. Dogs loose here not an issue and she’s always with me, during heat she’s not allowed alone outside, so for now I’ll wait.

Thank you @Katyusharocket

 

[Katyusharocket]

I think I am overwhelmed and frustrated with my vets experiences and need to take a break.

I feel for you. I wish all doberman owners could use our clinic. I've been vetting there over 20 years and I just have never once had a single frustration with them. They have bent over backwards for me so many times I have lost count. They are even keeping $1500 worth of VWd surgery supplies on hand so i dont need to use an emergency clinic. Reading your experience reminds me how blessed I am. Maybe I will pick up a thank you card for them to let them know.

 

[MyBuddy]

Also, at her gum nick test last week, done by a tech, they asked to take her back alone, I said ok no problem, as it'll be quick. Well, it wasn't and they they claimed she tried to bite, but I don't blame her as they were - in her mind going to hurt her. I told them why didn't you get me? I could have done the test myself, which was 40 dollars...They took blood and I paid way more than 40...I was taken back with that whole incident and extra couple hundred I wasn't expecting to pay.

So did they go ahead and take blood without asking you first?

And help me out here. Was the Nick test to see if she would continue to bleed after they pricked her gum? Or was it to collect the blood and test it? I thought it was just to see if she would continue to bleed. So what does the blood work get tested for then?

 

[MichiH]

So did they go ahead and take blood without asking you first?

And help me out here. Was the Nick test to see if she would continue to bleed after they pricked her gum? Or was it to collect the blood and test it? I thought it was just to see if she would continue to bleed. So what does the blood work get tested for then?

Yes, did not tell me just did it. Seemed upset she tried to bite. Well, can you blame her? She was scared!

Nick test to check bleed time , yes. Bloodwork to see where she falls on the spectrum since the nick test didn’t work.

 

[Katyusharocket]

@MyBuddy i just googled this, because it made me wonder too, what the blood test measures after you also asked. It was more things than I thought.

 

[Ravenbird]

Holy crap @MichiH I feel so bad for you and Pepper. I cannot believe the incompetence you are facing.

I agree with @JanS in that you should not have any complications regarding bleeding. Were her ears cropped by the breeder or did you have it done after you got her? Either way you should have been able to see if there were any abnormal problems. A carrier just doesn't have the genetic factors to "bleed out". Probably the vet knows you well enough that you are extremely bonded to your dog, probably more-so than 95% of his/her clients and is terrified of a bad incident in surgery. If they don't have confidence or knowledge about VWD I'd have to move on from them.

Here is some VERY useful info for your situation, knowing Pepper & her history. If Pepper is still at all in her false pregnancy her hormones could influence the outcome, and also because she seems to have had a lifetime of inflammation in her gut, even if it's all on the mend now - maybe that could influence the 61%. But again, 61% is not high risk according to damn near every thing I've read, plus on the report that @Katyusharocket so kindly shared!

Plasma VWF levels fluctuate somewhat from day to day in normal, healthy dogs. This fluctuation is exaggerated during pregnancy or heat in bitches, and in any dog having a systemic illness (especially liver disease or inflammatory disorders).


Here's Cornells website where that quote came from. Read it all for general information, you can skim over the scientific jargon, but most of it is understandable by a layman.

Canine von Willebrand Disease

Doberman pinscher Background Clinical Signs Treatment Laboratory Diagnosis Inheritance & Breeding Recommendations Breed Summaries Background

www.vet.cornell.edu

Please don't stress about Pepper over this, she is OK! Your biggest hurdle is finding a competent vet. Give yourself some time, you can at least say you can spay after her next cycle. Take really good notes on the number of days since she finished her cycle and when she is completely done with her false pregnancy, back to her tight tuck up, no swelling in her teats and her mental status is back to normal, then use that number of days to spay after her next heat. You can spend the next few months scouting out a new vet. Your current vet lacks confidence and knowledge and the referral clinic is a bank robber.

 

[Ravenbird]

And when was breeding? The last week of the heat?

That was a typo on my part! It should have said last day of BLEEDing. Sorry.

So yeah, if Annie didn't have any swelling in her teats or nesting like crazy and all that, I'd say you are in the clear since it's been well over 63 days since Christmas! Lucky you & Annie!

 

[MichiH]

Holy crap @MichiH I feel so bad for you and Pepper. I cannot believe the incompetence you are facing.

I agree with @JanS in that you should not have any complications regarding bleeding. Were her ears cropped by the breeder or did you have it done after you got her? Either way you should have been able to see if there were any abnormal problems. A carrier just doesn't have the genetic factors to "bleed out". Probably the vet knows you well enough that you are extremely bonded to your dog, probably more-so than 95% of his/her clients and is terrified of a bad incident in surgery. If they don't have confidence or knowledge about VWD I'd have to move on from them.

Here is some VERY useful info for your situation, knowing Pepper & her history. If Pepper is still at all in her false pregnancy her hormones could influence the outcome, and also because she seems to have had a lifetime of inflammation in her gut, even if it's all on the mend now - maybe that could influence the 61%. But again, 61% is not high risk according to damn near every thing I've read, plus on the report that @Katyusharocket so kindly shared!

Plasma VWF levels fluctuate somewhat from day to day in normal, healthy dogs. This fluctuation is exaggerated during pregnancy or heat in bitches, and in any dog having a systemic illness (especially liver disease or inflammatory disorders).


Here's Cornells website where that quote came from. Read it all for general information, you can skim over the scientific jargon, but most of it is understandable by a layman.

Canine von Willebrand Disease

Doberman pinscher Background Clinical Signs Treatment Laboratory Diagnosis Inheritance & Breeding Recommendations Breed Summaries Background

www.vet.cornell.edu

Please don't stress about Pepper over this, she is OK! Your biggest hurdle is finding a competent vet. Give yourself some time, you can at least say you can spay after her next cycle. Take really good notes on the number of days since she finished her cycle and when she is completely done with her false pregnancy, back to her tight tuck up, no swelling in her teats and her mental status is back to normal, then use that number of days to spay after her next heat. You can spend the next few months scouting out a new vet. Your current vet lacks confidence and knowledge and the referral clinic is a bank robber.

Thank you @Ravenbird

I truly don’t get it we live in an extremely populated area and I can’t find a decent vet. Clearly, got ripped off last week and still trying to rip me off. You’re correct I understand the vets hesitancy as she knows Pepper is not only my dog, but she’s my baby.

Her ears were cropped about a week before we picked her up. No bleeding at all with her ears, normal scabs that I cleaned off and then reposted. Breeder reassured me she’s a carrier not a problem.

I will take diligent notes at the next heat. Thank you. I will read the link you posted also, again thank you! Interesting about number fluctuations with heat as inflammation. She’s had all 3 recently going on. So maybe she’s even higher than a 61 being though her DNA results had her as a carrier only.

On the search again for a new vet. You’re right I am not rushing and no rush to get her spayed. Family is all in on working with me as they always have, but wanted to make sure we all are on same page.

I do need to start red raspberry before next heat. You did correct?

 

[MichiH]

I typed in breeding recently too lol
In response to you

Yes lucky you @MyBuddy

 

[MichiH]

Holy crap @MichiH I feel so bad for you and Pepper. I cannot believe the incompetence you are facing.

I agree with @JanS in that you should not have any complications regarding bleeding. Were her ears cropped by the breeder or did you have it done after you got her? Either way you should have been able to see if there were any abnormal problems. A carrier just doesn't have the genetic factors to "bleed out". Probably the vet knows you well enough that you are extremely bonded to your dog, probably more-so than 95% of his/her clients and is terrified of a bad incident in surgery. If they don't have confidence or knowledge about VWD I'd have to move on from them.

Here is some VERY useful info for your situation, knowing Pepper & her history. If Pepper is still at all in her false pregnancy her hormones could influence the outcome, and also because she seems to have had a lifetime of inflammation in her gut, even if it's all on the mend now - maybe that could influence the 61%. But again, 61% is not high risk according to damn near every thing I've read, plus on the report that @Katyusharocket so kindly shared!

Plasma VWF levels fluctuate somewhat from day to day in normal, healthy dogs. This fluctuation is exaggerated during pregnancy or heat in bitches, and in any dog having a systemic illness (especially liver disease or inflammatory disorders).


Here's Cornells website where that quote came from. Read it all for general information, you can skim over the scientific jargon, but most of it is understandable by a layman.

Canine von Willebrand Disease

Doberman pinscher Background Clinical Signs Treatment Laboratory Diagnosis Inheritance & Breeding Recommendations Breed Summaries Background

www.vet.cornell.edu

Please don't stress about Pepper over this, she is OK! Your biggest hurdle is finding a competent vet. Give yourself some time, you can at least say you can spay after her next cycle. Take really good notes on the number of days since she finished her cycle and when she is completely done with her false pregnancy, back to her tight tuck up, no swelling in her teats and her mental status is back to normal, then use that number of days to spay after her next heat. You can spend the next few months scouting out a new vet. Your current vet lacks confidence and knowledge and the referral clinic is a bank robber.

Appreciate it definitely stressed, but realizing no rush on this.

 

[Katyusharocket]

I truly don’t get it we live in an extremely populated area and I can’t find a decent vet.

As I read about your problems, I am starting to think that being in an extremely populated area is a part of the problem. It's so rural here that our vets and techs literally have no choice but to also be our neighbors and part of the community, they know us from other activities like being at the gun range or being on my weekend mail route or using the dog park or running into each other at the grocery store, or going to church together. Makes it very unlikely they can hide away at the end of the day, or want to refer us on without a good reason, and I think that counts for something. Good luck! I hope you can find someone willing to become invested in Pepper and you. Driving out to the rural area might be worth it, even if it's a bit of an inconvenience for the drive.

 

[Ravenbird]

I will take diligent notes at the next heat.

Did you write down or remember about the last day or even week that she quit bleeding this last time? Seems like just in the last week or two you were talking about a toy or ball that she might still be having puppy-possession over, which means to me that those hormones are still active. The best thing about writing it all down is comparing one cycle to the next. They do vary, but for the most part you can look at the calendar and know what's going to happen. So if you know she quit bleeding by Jan 1st, then you know that today is day 76 after heat is done. This is about when Asha would "give up" that no real puppies are gonna happen. She continues sleeping a little more and nesting for another couple of weeks but her tummy looses it's "water weight", and teats lose any fullness, her belly tucks up tight and her insane energy is back, but it is gradual.

I don't mind the heat cycle, and her post-heat mood and physical changes don't really make much difference in her work ethics, but after 5 years I'm wondering how fair it is for the dog in the long run. Their nature is wanting to be bred and reproduce. Since we know how emotional Dobermans are, I just wonder how much she understands or doesn't understand this natural cycle being left unfulfilled. We can never know, but the more I watch, the more I think this can't be easy for her to cycle 2x year and never get what she's expecting. It's like a total of 4 - 5 months out of 12, she's dreaming of puppies. So yes, I'm seriously considering spaying, but as you know even when everything is fine, just the thought of it I get cold feet. and I know that it should not be a problem.

 

[Ravenbird]

I do need to start red raspberry before next heat. You did correct?

recommended to start first day of the cycle, but I started about day 4 or 5 because she started a couple weeks earlier than I expected and it still cut down on symptoms but did not go symptom-free. I don't think it will completely stop symptoms if they are prone to false pregnancies.

 

[MichiH]

Did you write down or remember about the last day or even week that she quit bleeding this last time? Seems like just in the last week or two you were talking about a toy or ball that she might still be having puppy-possession over, which means to me that those hormones are still active. The best thing about writing it all down is comparing one cycle to the next. They do vary, but for the most part you can look at the calendar and know what's going to happen. So if you know she quit bleeding by Jan 1st, then you know that today is day 76 after heat is done. This is about when Asha would "give up" that no real puppies are gonna happen. She continues sleeping a little more and nesting for another couple of weeks but her tummy looses it's "water weight", and teats lose any fullness, her belly tucks up tight and her insane energy is back, but it is gradual.

I don't mind the heat cycle, and her post-heat mood and physical changes don't really make much difference in her work ethics, but after 5 years I'm wondering how fair it is for the dog in the long run. Their nature is wanting to be bred and reproduce. Since we know how emotional Dobermans are, I just wonder how much she understands or doesn't understand this natural cycle being left unfulfilled. We can never know, but the more I watch, the more I think this can't be easy for her to cycle 2x year and never get what she's expecting. It's like a total of 4 - 5 months out of 12, she's dreaming of puppies. So yes, I'm seriously considering spaying, but as you know even when everything is fine, just the thought of it I get cold feet. and I know that it should not be a problem.

Yes, I have notes in my phone for both times she went into heat. She was still mothering and nesting last week so for sure her bloodwork was off. This week it’s a little less she got her ball back and isn’t mothering it. Less nesting behaviors, but I did notice milk yesterday so still in it.

I completely agree with you about how fair is it to them? Do they realize this is just normal after a few heats and no pups? Idk and it makes me feel bad because she’s so upset and motherly without pups.

I appreciate you sharing your experience and feeling about it all too. I am also getting cold feet there are pros and cons to spay or not to spay. Then to have them under I can’t really handle that one. Now with lapping my faith in the vets I’ve seen I’m really stuck.

 

[MichiH]

As I read about your problems, I am starting to think that being in an extremely populated area is a part of the problem. It's so rural here that our vets and techs literally have no choice but to also be our neighbors and part of the community, they know us from other activities like being at the gun range or being on my weekend mail route or using the dog park or running into each other at the grocery store, or going to church together. Makes it very unlikely they can hide away at the end of the day, or want to refer us on without a good reason, and I think that counts for something. Good luck! I hope you can find someone willing to become invested in Pepper and you. Driving out to the rural area might be worth it, even if it's a bit of an inconvenience for the drive.

Very good points you made above! Makes me jealous that’s for sure! A small town with closer folks who care. Sounds perfect to me.

We have so many to choose from here it’s very competitive and prices are insane at most offices.

 

[MyBuddy]

Probably the vet knows you well enough that you are extremely bonded to your dog, probably more-so than 95% of his/her clients and is terrified of a bad incident in surgery

That was my thought too. That's why earlier I said he was scared!

If they don't have confidence or knowledge about VWD I'd have to move on from them.

I have to agree with that.

Your current vet lacks confidence and knowledge and the referral clinic is a bank robber.

And this.

That was a typo on my part! It should have said last day of BLEEDing. Sorry.

So yeah, if Annie didn't have any swelling in her teats or nesting like crazy and all that, I'd say you are in the clear since it's been well over 63 days since Christmas! Lucky you & Annie!

Oh thank you! That makes more sense. So yes I guess we're past that point. I've never seen any nesting Tendencies with her nor milk dripping. I do think her nipples and other parts are a little bigger than they were before she started but I thought I read somewhere here of others saying the same thing. But other than that I haven't noticed anything so I'm sure we're past that point.

We can never know, but the more I watch, the more I think this can't be easy for her to cycle 2x year and never get what she's expecting. It's like a total of 4 - 5 months out of 12, she's dreaming of puppies. So yes, I'm seriously considering spaying, but as you know even when everything is fine, just the thought of it I get cold feet.

It seems to me that at both ends of the spectrum there's a problem. Spray too early, it can be a problem. Never spay, and there can be problems later in life and now they're older and surgery can be risky.

Then they change it where you should wait 18 to 24 months. So in my opinion I feel that's kind of a middle ground where I can feel comfortable. I never wanted to keep any of my dogs intact. Male or female. That's just me. So if the going age is around 2 years old that's what I will do. I neutered Buddy at 18 months and he did fine. And lived 13 years. And I totally realize that females have a lot more and different issues.

After all this I will be taking diligent notes too! I didn't last time because it was so easy to remember. I did write down when she started, which was December 2nd. And she was out of panties right before christmas. So she was not in her panties when we had company Thanksgiving and Christmas! LOL I doubt I'll be so lucky next time!

 

[JanS]

I wish all doberman owners could use our clinic. I've been vetting there over 20 years and I just have never once had a single frustration with them. They have bent over backwards for me so many times I have lost count.

Same with our vet and he totally understands this breed. When I tell him our dog is a vWD carrier he knows it's safe for surgery and he also educates people on the importance of waiting to spay/neuter breeds like this until they're fully mature. My friend called him to have her Doberman neutered when he was 9 or 10 months old and he discouraged it when he was so young and told her why. She proceeded to go to a different vet in a different town who encouraged early s/n.

 

[MyBuddy]

he discouraged it when he was so young and told her why

Wow, such a change from years ago!