Spay and heat cycles

[Ravenbird]

Since more of us are learning that it's good to let our females mature to at least 18 months and older before spaying, we are also learning that false pregnancies seem to be extremely common in our breed. Just the small example on this chat forum, it seems like nearly every one has experienced it.

That said, there is more seen in the veterinarian world about spaying a dog during a false pregnancy and they are advising to wait until your girls hormones have settled down and she is showing no signs physically or emotionally regarding pregnancy or puppy infatuation.

"It might seem like a good idea to spay the female to end the false pregnancy as spaying will remove the ovaries and the corpora lutea they carry. Unfortunately, this does not end the prolactin production from the pituitary gland so spaying may actually prolong the false pregnancy. Spaying during the diestrus period described above can actually trigger a false pregnancy. It is best to wait until the false pregnancy is over and then spay her to prevent future episodes. It is best to spay well after the 70 day diestrus period to avoid triggering a false pregnancy"

The quote above is the last paragraph in this article:

False Pregnancy (Canine) - Mar Vista Animal Medical Center

Before talking about treatment of false pregnancy, its important to know the natural estrus cycle of the dog. Find information about the multiple phases, proper treatment and when treatment should be considered.

www.marvistavet.com

 

[MichiH]

Since more of us are learning that it's good to let our females mature to at least 18 months and older before spaying, we are also learning that false pregnancies seem to be extremely common in our breed. Just the small example on this chat forum, it seems like nearly every one has experienced it.

That said, there is more seen in the veterinarian world about spaying a dog during a false pregnancy and they are advising to wait until your girls hormones have settled down and she is showing no signs physically or emotionally regarding pregnancy or puppy infatuation.

"It might seem like a good idea to spay the female to end the false pregnancy as spaying will remove the ovaries and the corpora lutea they carry. Unfortunately, this does not end the prolactin production from the pituitary gland so spaying may actually prolong the false pregnancy. Spaying during the diestrus period described above can actually trigger a false pregnancy. It is best to wait until the false pregnancy is over and then spay her to prevent future episodes. It is best to spay well after the 70 day diestrus period to avoid triggering a false pregnancy"

The quote above is the last paragraph in this article:

False Pregnancy (Canine) - Mar Vista Animal Medical Center

Before talking about treatment of false pregnancy, its important to know the natural estrus cycle of the dog. Find information about the multiple phases, proper treatment and when treatment should be considered.

www.marvistavet.com

Great information!
We are going to spay end of April so she should be I hope back to herself.
She’s very sleepy this time which I guess is normal?
Finished up her antibiotics this am for her stool issues.

 

[Ravenbird]

We are going to spay end of April so she should be I hope back to herself.
She’s very sleepy this time which I guess is normal?

Is end of April 70+ days since end of bleeding? That's what they are recommending. It goes exactly in the time line as if they'd been bred. So around 63 days is her "whelp day", then she has to realize there are.no.puppies. Which is why I discourage letting them adopt a fuzzy toy or slipper or anything that she can pretend is a pup. She will come out of it faster if there were zero "live births". As long as she thinks there's a puppy, the hormones can keep it going.

Yes, sleepy is normal. Asha is always ready to do anything at the drop of a hat, still goes 100% when we do anything, but when she's in this stage she sleeps really hard between any activities and isn't pestering and pushing me to do something all day long. The first year or two I thought she'd finally just grown up and got an off switch.

 

[MichiH]

Is end of April 70+ days since end of bleeding? That's what they are recommending. It goes exactly in the time line as if they'd been bred. So around 63 days is her "whelp day", then she has to realize there are.no.puppies. Which is why I discourage letting them adopt a fuzzy toy or slipper or anything that she can pretend is a pup. She will come out of it faster if there were zero "live births". As long as she thinks there's a puppy, the hormones can keep it going.

Yes, sleepy is normal. Asha is always ready to do anything at the drop of a hat, still goes 100% when we do anything, but when she's in this stage she sleeps really hard between any activities and isn't pestering and pushing me to do something all day long. The first year or two I thought she'd finally just grown up and got an off switch.

Ok thank you great information and more learning for me.

Yes, and of April will be 70+ days after her breeding ended.

I know I am not complaining lol she is very chill this round.

 

[JanS]

Yes our breeder said I should try to spay Olive in April or early May going by her last cycle when I asked her if it was okay to do it before her next cycle. Of course we'll have the tummy tack at the same time as long as she's going through the surgery anyway.

Luckily Olive has not had a false pregnancy (KOW) but poor Phoebe did.

 

[Katyusharocket]

we are also learning that false pregnancies seem to be extremely common in our breed. Just the small example on this chat forum, it seems like nearly every one has experienced it.

Now that you mention it, it is most female Dobermans on here, that I am aware of, do experience false pregnancy. Here I was thinking Zastava would skate on that. I'll be more vigilant to watch her for it, because of this discussion. Since this would be the first time I would be seeing it, how long after heat is over would I see it, if it occurs?

 

[JanS]

how long after heat is over would I see it, if it occurs?

Normally it's approximately about the time span after their most receptive phase in the cycle that they would be having pups, give or take. With Phoebe, she was in heat in about mid July and she started her motherly phase in early September.

 

[JanS]

our breeder said I should try to spay Olive in April or early May going by her last cycle when I asked her if it was okay to do it before her next cycle.

Oof, I called for an appointment today thinking I was doing it early and she said they're already booked out to July. I was a bit persistent so she looked for any cancellations and got us in for May 15. Man I hate dropping them off and leaving them but it will be a relief having it done and not having to worry about dealing with it again when they're both intact.

 

[Katyusharocket]

Normally it's approximately about the time span after their most receptive phase in the cycle that they would be having pups, give or take. With Phoebe, she was in heat in about mid July and she started her motherly phase in early September.

According to Toby that started March 5th, so roughly the first week in May or so...

 

[MichiH]

Now that you mention it, it is most female Dobermans on here, that I am aware of, do experience false pregnancy. Here I was thinking Zastava would skate on that. I'll be more vigilant to watch her for it, because of this discussion. Since this would be the first time I would be seeing it, how long after heat is over would I see it, if it occurs?

Pepper went into her first false pregnancy around 62 days after her bleeding stopped. This time she had a false pregnancy earlier around 40 some days and it’s more intense.

@Rits mentioned raspberry leaf tea I believe that’s what it was, give to them before their heat begins, double check on this forum all that info. Of course I didn’t do it and now she’s a mess with this false pregnancy. This heat came on earlier than expected.

She is lactating, super sleepy, mothering her toys which are now removed, very whiney, a nesting maniac, very clingy, but still her sweet self. It’s been a ride.

 

[Ravenbird]

Since this would be the first time I would be seeing it, how long after heat is over would I see it, if it occurs?

As @JanS said, it follows exactly the pattern as if she'd been bred. So 63 days after last day of breeding would be "whelping day" and a week or two after that wanting to mother puppies (toys, slippers, something) until the lightbulb goes off that it's not really happening. It's not just mental, it is truly physical with milk, resting, wanting to nest etc etc. That's why they say 70+ days after end of heat. Since this is Z's first heat, I'm not sure your plan about spaying, but take notes of everything for the next two months. then if intact and goes through another cycle, take notes again so you can plan on a spay date when needed.

This is relatively new studies but the bottom line is that it cannot hurt to put off spaying another 30 days when we've already gone a year or two or five...

 

[Katyusharocket]

take notes of everything for the next two months

Every little change I can notice goes on my Google calendar so I can search it later. I'm really tracking this girl. Katyusha was spayed before her first heat, for better or for worse, but I think 4 years back, this was more accepted advice, not so much so today.

Ill be noting everything from now till early May and beyond, if she follows the apparently normal Dobergirl path of a false pregnancy.

I'm not sure your plan about spaying,

Speaking just for today, I have no plans to spay her. Time will tell if I need to change my thoughts on this.

 

[Ravenbird]

@Rits mentioned raspberry leaf tea I believe that’s what it was, give to them before their heat begins, double check on this forum all that info. Of course I didn’t do it and now she’s a mess with this false pregnancy.

I did feed those Raspberry leaves last heat and Ashas symptoms were milder! Thanks for reminding me, it's almost cycle time again and I think it did help. I need to get them ordered today.

Speaking just for today, I have no plans to spay her. Time will tell if I need to change my thoughts on this.

I have put it off but for the last year or two I'm thinking to spay. My thoughts are not so much about inconvenience because it's very little trouble as far as I'm concerned. But it is not natural for a female canine to cycle over and over and over for years and never get pregnant. I have to wonder if it is physically and/or emotionally draining as they get older. And pyometra is real and deadly and can ONLY happen in an intact bitch.

 

[Ravenbird]

And on spaying, today is the day for Reckless.

Reckless is 10 now and has to be spayed due to her last two heat cycles the hormones fluctuated wildly. She had excessive thirst, crazy hungry every minute of the day, her neck thickened to where her collars barely fit on the last hole... on and on. Just wasn't "normal" for almost a month. The first time we didn't know what was wrong and neither did the vet, but the second time we realized it was happening right after her cycle. With tons of research and the vets help with testing we found the name of the condition Progesterone Related Diabetes Mellitus. Her blood sugar was off the charts. The only cure for it is spaying. Obviously a surgery is not ever as easy on an older dog than one that is 2 or 3, so the stress is now on her owner. And me too because I'm her "Auntie" and have known her all her life. So yeah, I'm thinking to avoid a forced surgery when our dogs are older, maybe it's best to choose it, time it just right while the dog is in her prime and healthy. I was thinking mostly of pyometra more than anything until this last year watching Reckless go miserable.

Hold some healthy healing vibes for Reckless today.

 

[Katyusharocket]

Hold some healthy healing vibes for Reckless today.

Me and my pack sure will. That sounds awful, what she went through.

How old is Asha now?

 

[Ravenbird]

How old is Asha now?

5

 

[Katyusharocket]

5

I have time to observe and consider and decide, then.

 

[JanS]

Hold some healthy healing vibes for Reckless today.

Aww prayers sent.

With tons of research and the vets help with testing we found the name of the condition Progesterone Related Diabetes Mellitus. Her blood sugar was off the charts. The only cure for it is spaying.

That's interesting and I had not heard of that but it's good to know.

 

[MichiH]

And on spaying, today is the day for Reckless.

Reckless is 10 now and has to be spayed due to her last two heat cycles the hormones fluctuated wildly. She had excessive thirst, crazy hungry every minute of the day, her neck thickened to where her collars barely fit on the last hole... on and on. Just wasn't "normal" for almost a month. The first time we didn't know what was wrong and neither did the vet, but the second time we realized it was happening right after her cycle. With tons of research and the vets help with testing we found the name of the condition Progesterone Related Diabetes Mellitus. Her blood sugar was off the charts. The only cure for it is spaying. Obviously a surgery is not ever as easy on an older dog than one that is 2 or 3, so the stress is now on her owner. And me too because I'm her "Auntie" and have known her all her life. So yeah, I'm thinking to avoid a forced surgery when our dogs are older, maybe it's best to choose it, time it just right while the dog is in her prime and healthy. I was thinking mostly of pyometra more than anything until this last year watching Reckless go miserable.

Hold some healthy healing vibes for Reckless today.

Sending positive vibes to Reckless and you all

 

[Ravenbird]

She's home and doing well, still "under the influence", only ate a little of her dinner but I expect she will be returning to normal after a good nights sleep.