CDX - we've got work to do!

[Ravenbird]

Went to the Tucson Cluster and entered Open A each day for Thursday Friday & Saturday. There was no "match time" where you can go practice in the ring which would have helped a lot I'm thinking, but she just was not comfortable on Thursday, head in the clouds, looking around, over the jump to retrieve but around the jump to return, did a recall instead of jumping the broad jump (all 3 days), too much to list... Short story, 3 days - 3 NQ's, but it was better each day with Saturday being very good form, but still not going over the jump on the way back and still not going over the broad jump at all.

Did a Fast Cat on Friday to let her run off her stress - 24.5 mph - still holding her own on speed. She's been faster, but the lane was facing into the wind which was blowing fiercely all.day.long and even blew over some peoples shade tents near the obedience ring. That was pretty exciting. Funny because no harm done, but seriously the wind was bad!

All the obedience & rally was done OUTSIDE. I'm extremely glad I taught my dog that sniffing/crittering/pee is off limits during any kind of training - more dogs got points off or excused for peeing than I've ever seen.

Here's Saturdays Open A run, you can see that she's distracted at several points during heeling, air scenting & clearly thinking about something in the far distance but way better than Thursday & Friday, so I felt good leaving on improved performance. If $ was no object I would have entered for Sun & Mon as well, but we all have our limits. I think as she was getting use to the place and action around she was getting better. (over 1000 dogs there for all events) They had music blaring from the dock diving, the fast cat was running in the next field (out of sight, but you could hear the dogs barking) and also had another area for Fetch going on. The conformation was all indoors in two huge buildings. Quite the action for my country girl, it's beyond me how to train for that kind of distractions!

 

[Rits]

I'm so amazed and impressed with you two! Knowing how far you've come!! She was kinda on what I call "auto pilot heeling" where they are technically heeling but not engaged at all and just walking beside you, but you can see half way through she was like "oh yeah, mom is with me!" and she was focused heeling and engaged! Look at that drop on recall, call to front and flip finish though!! Beautiful!! And the dumbbell retrieve to front was also gorgeous even if she didn't take the jump! All fixable pieces. You will probably have to put some uprights on the broad jump to keep her from cheating , or a cone to target and wrap at the other end, and then fade them out?

 

[remy]

Even though you didn’t Q, I think there is still a lot to be proud of! You and Asha do a great job and are inspiring to me! I bet you’ll get it next time.

 

[Two Dobes]

AGREED!!! You guys look great! And you can see how windy it was....that is difficult. Love how you trot between exercises to keep her engaged....(I will start to do this!) and her fronts are gorgeous, and her enthusiasm for the dumbell is great!
Are you allowed to say "STAY" when you leave your dog to go get your leash in Open? I did not hear you say Stay, and she did not move! LOTS to be proud of for the two of you!!!!
It's been years since I was in Open with Clarke....we showed for awhile and never Q'd and so I went back to Rally with him. He could perform the hardest exercises; the random signals were his strongest!!!! But was not consistent on his recall back over the jump, and would sometimes go for the dumbell, and forget what he went for

 

[Ravenbird]

She was kinda on what I call "auto pilot heeling" where they are technically heeling but not engaged at all and just walking beside you

You will probably have to put some uprights on the broad jump to keep her from cheating , or a cone to target and wrap at the other end, and then fade them out?

Auto-pilot is a great description! I'll remember that one.

My problem is she never did this in training once she knew the drill. Like never! I don't know how to set her up to do it wrong on the broad jump at home, but I'll be asking on my online class. I used the cone to train and faded it out, adding it back when she started cutting the corner, but even cutting the corner was after she cleared the jump. She only came to me a couple of times the first week I was teaching her and that was months ago! So I can honestly say she "nevered like she never nevered before"!!! And did it every.single.day!

One suggestion on the jump retrieve I was told when I get home to start throwing (or just setting) the dumbbell out to one side or the other so the straightest point to the dumbbell or back to me would NOT be over the jump. Then I can correct her. I'll ask for details with online class about that too because the gal who offered that info also does (or did) online Obedience Road also, so she might have learned it there. Seriously though, I did not proof enough at home setting her up to fail so I could show her it wasn't the right choice.

Thank you so much for the compliments and input, it always means a lot.

Are you allowed to say "STAY" when you leave your dog to go get your leash in Open?

Yes. I use the word WAIT if I say anything at all, but when training in IGP we could not use a second command, so I taught her from the very beginning that the last thing I said is what goes, so sit, stand, down and walk away the dog is expected to keep that position. in Open I think you can use hand and/or voice signal to "stay" when you leave your dog in any exercise. I found out that after I taught "stand" and then position changes, I'd be doing a different exercise and also used the word "stay" after a sit or a down, Asha would hear "Sssttt..." and begin to stand up, not waiting for me to finish my word "stay", she would be projecting I was going to say "stand". So I changed it to a short, crisp "Wait" for when I did use it. You don't have to tell your dog a stay command when you leave them, so I don't if I think she's on board. I think I used it a couple of times, but she generally doesn't need to be told. I'll have to review the video, but the other thing I do - but sometimes forget - is for heel start with my left foot and for her to stay I walk off leading with my right foot. You probably already know that one.

I think your young boy is so brilliant he would be a lot of fun to work towards CDX.

 

[JanS]

You two look awesome out there!

 

[Two Dobes]

I look forward to doing more with Falcon, working on the stand for exam now....really just the stand . Once he is steady, I'll practice with people touching him.

 

[Ravenbird]

I look forward to doing more with Falcon, working on the stand for exam now....really just the stand . Once he is steady, I'll practice with people touching him.

He'll be great with the start you've given him. Asha was terrible with people approaching much less touching - I thought it'd be the end of us in CD. I can't remember now who told me, but they said for dogs like mine - or overly wiggly & friendly dogs - teach the stand stay, then as we already know, add distance, duration & lastly distractions. Distractions can be rolling a ball on the floor nearby, or stepping on a squeaky toy in an adjacent room, dropping a large book on the floor etc etc. then you or another person walking around, walking toward, reaching out but keeping on walking - all these things before they actually touch your dog. Always be ready to fix the stand stay if he moves and try to reward before he breaks while keeping the challenges up. Then the person touching him is "just another distraction" and has nothing to do with "omg they are coming toward me and about to touch!" It worked beautifully for my dog and also worked for a dog I knew who would go nuts with joy if a stranger reached out to pet. It's the change of mindset that worked for Asha.

My biggest heartbreak is that she has SO much fun training at home - fast, crazy, bright & eager - but in the ring she looks like she'd rather be any place else. I saw other Dobermans there doing similar - trained well, but get in the ring and just look around with a blank stare. Other breeds did this too, but it reminded me of when you got the new crate and you said Falcon wasn't himself that trial. Anyway, no matter how much fun I make it at home, it doesn't translate over to the ring. I know my nerves can go down the leash, but I'm at the age where I really don't care what anyone thinks and I have nothing to prove, I'm just wanting to have fun with my dog and see where we are in training. I don't feel nervous, but I know I probably show a different picture in that ring than at home to Asha. Open to suggestions since you've been around this block!

 

[Two Dobes]

"My biggest heartbreak is that she has SO much fun training at home - fast, crazy, bright & eager - but in the ring she looks like she'd rather be any place else."

I completely forgot, until I looked up my videos.....I wasn't even in Open, Clarke and I attempted PRE OPEN - which is easier....and he was SO stressed about working away from me, that I finally gave up and went back to Rally and got his RAE title. He loved to work with me, not away from me. Here is his attempt at Pre Open....this breaks my heart to watch, he was so stressed And he also, worked beautifully at home training this - a perfect '200' until we got to the shows. I also don't care what other people think; but I remember how nervous I was with him....every time. I don't know why....he had such a great temperament...no worries about his behavior. I think it is my lack of control. And I always tell myself; just focus on what I am doing; he will do what he will do. Can't fix anything in the ring, so pay attention to my own steps.

I appreciate YOUR ideas about teaching the stand! I definately need to take my time with Falcon....I think I rushed Clarke through obedience, because he was always so happy and eager during training that I felt he was ready.

 

[Ravenbird]

I wasn't even in Open, Clarke and I attempted PRE OPEN - which is easier....

Your video looks like Open to me, but maybe it was different back then. I think you did every exercise I did, and pretty darn good. I can see his lack of confidence just like I see in Asha. It's hard to understand when they train so well at home, I just want to tell them "hey! this is the same fun thing we do at home!" Thanks for posting - I'm excited for you and Falcon on your obedience adventure and hope we can bounce ideas back and forth on training. I need all the help I can get

 

[Two Dobes]

I love the idea of you helping me! This video is even better....now I know why I was nervous. Thought he was going to leave the ring on this one!!!! Pre Open the jump is lower, and the broad is 1 panel shorter....and no stays in the end. I don't even know what they do now that they have eliminated the out of sight stays? Clarke could not wait for this to be over....I think after this I went back to rally.

 

[Ravenbird]

Pre Open the jump is lower, and the broad is 1 panel shorter....and no stays in the end. I don't even know what they do now that they have eliminated the out of sight stays?

Aahh. OK, I didn't notice the jumps height/width. For the Stay exercise, at the end of Open is Stand-Stay-get your leash. The leash is outside the ring gate either on a chair or a steward will hand it to you. The judge can choose where you stand the dog in the ring, you leave the dog going out the gate, get your leash and step inside the gate and stop and the judge says return to your dog.

Clarke could not wait for this to be over.

I get it! It's such a hopeless feeling when you see your normally enthusiastic dog be like this! I feel worse that Asha is not having fun than the NQ's. But I also feel like it's another training challenge to convert the "stage fright" to fun because that's really getting deep right there.

I have two groups I can train with in my town, but nobody has done CDX and can't advise me, but I can train with other people & dogs around. Almost everything I've learned was online.
Last year I joined Obedience Road with Connie Cleveland online training and she's great. I couldn't have done this without her. She only teaches forced retrieve on the dumbbell though and I trained shaped retrieve method via Dave Kroyer online which I also highly recommend. Joining is only done 2 x a year, I think January & July, if you're interested. Dave Kroyer is mostly about IGP training, but he's another non-nonsense trainer and his obedience exercises would mostly carry over for AKC. Both of them will critique videos, but Connie and her assistant are more in depth with their help. Dave is not so good with fixing behavioral problems.

 

[Two Dobes]

I noticed at the last trial I was at, that they have a thing where if you NQ, you can say something...can't remember and they will let you redo it in the ring - essentially training in the ring. I thought that was brilliant, and need to read up on current obedience rules. Just about eveyrone in open redid the broad jump. And now that you mention it; they also do the stand in Pre open, go get your leash. 5 years ago seems like an eternity to me! Thanks for the resources.

 

[Ravenbird]

they have a thing where if you NQ, you can say something..

It's called a Fix and Go (you can search it on AKC rules). If you know you NQ'd, you can ask for FnG and re-do the exercise, then you have to leave the ring. So if it was an early exercise, you miss out the "practice of being in the ring". I really wish I had done it on Asha refusing the broadjump. One thing Connie said about them - and she does encourage using the FnG - is that you must feel confident that you can indeed fix it. To do it wrong twice is even worse. Dogs DO learn there are no corrections in the ring just like the learn there's no treats or balls. I couldn't think of how to re-do it and be assured Asha would go over it, but on my drive back home I thought what I could have done in in a re-do is go to the other end of the broad jump and call her over it to me. How I began the training in the very first steps. But I'm too new at all this, couldn't think of how to fix it so didn't opt for it and I'm not sure that calling her over the jump from the front instead of the side would be allowed since it's not the way the exercise is done... So many questions! Same with retrieve over the jump - how do you fix it? You still can't use a hard correction or anything that looks or sounds punitive as you are in the ring. But like if you re-did a drop on recall, you could do it again using strong body language like walking toward your dog as you say "down". Since my dog and I both desperately need ring time I don't think I'd do a fix and go if it was the first 2 or 3 exercises. Best thing about a re-do on the broad jump is you only miss one exercise before leaving the ring. Open A is always the same order (what you see in my video). If you're Open B they can mix up the exercises in any order and you don't know what it will be until the judge posts it.

 

[Two Dobes]

Thanks for the info! That makes sense....
So your conversation inspired me to introduce the dumbell to Falcon....I wish I had videoed it, but I did not. I had him on leash, and he was touching it with his nose, and I would treat, then he got the zoomies, and he tried to bolt from me, and freaked out that he was on leash, clotheslined himself, then wouldn't go near me with the dumbell in my hand So I made this video, of me showing Glory the dumbell (which I don't ever remember training her?) but she loved the game, and I was trying to get Falcon interested in her having fun. Any ideas on how to start over with him?

 

[Ravenbird]

I'm not able to open your video - says it is private?

In Daves method of shaped retrieve we did every step with a PVC pipe. His reasoning I think is that no bad experiences or boredom or whatever will be associated with the dumbbell. When they retrieve the PVC pipe at a distance and come front with it, then you start over from the beginning with the dumbbell so everything with the actual dumbbell goes smoothly. Honestly it took months and months. The other thing he drilled into his teaching is you don't start dumbbell work unless the dog knows how to come front and sit, every time and near perfection. Otherwise they learn to come in sloppy & sideways and you're rewarding for bringing it so the dog thinks that's the way to bring it. I have some videos when I was teaching Asha a couple of years ago, you might like watching this start to finish, but I will say again, it was the longest, most difficult thing I ever taught Asha to do but it stuck like glue and now it's one of her very favorite things to do now because she knows exactly how it's suppose to go.

Thread 'Shaped Hold for Retrieve for AKC or IGP'

Jun 3, 2022

We've been discussing training for AKC (or IGP) dumbbell retrieve on AJ's CDX thread. I didn't want to take away from @obbanner's great training job and congrats so thought I'd start a new thread & for thoughts on different methods. I'm a paying subscriber to Dave Kroyer and he has videos describing both a forced hold and a shaped hold for achieving a quiet, non-chompy hold and retrieve to front. I watched them both and the shaped method sounded promising for Ashas personality as I've taught her many things with click & food. I generally use part of her daily ration since I use this...

• Ravenbird
• Replies: 21
• Forum: Obedience & Performance Sports

• 
• 
• 

 

[Two Dobes]

Here it is....thanks so much for the info....I had not learned not to start with the dumbell....makes perfect sense.

 

[Ravenbird]

Your dogs are so engaging. Love your work with them! What I learned is the reward marker is key. Whether yes or a clicker, it penetrates the dogs brain on repeat the Thing they did that brought the reward. Yeah, the PVC pipe intro was interesting, but it made sense. I just followed his instructions especially not moving ahead with anything until we got to the point where he said to move to the next step. It was brutally slow for what I was use to. But something about the slow & steady really did work. And the bonus was that I would not be doing retrieves in anything anytime soon, so really there was no hurry. 10 min a day using part of her breakfast for rewards. Months, for sure, but it paid off. It's one of her most solid exercises because there's no confusion about what she is suppose to do. Also with shaped work there is zero correction, you never tell them they are wrong, you only click/reward when they do it right. Tons of patience. Otherwise silence and letting them work it out.

 

[Two Dobes]

especially not moving ahead with anything

This is so important....until it is clear to them what I am asking......thanks so much for your input! Back to the drawing board

 

[LifeofRubie]

I'm late to the party but you guys look so good out there, even if no Qs earned!!

I'm so impressed that with literally everything going on around you guys and being outside and being windy that she had ANY focus! Mine are too... "shiny thing! smelly thing! moving thing!"