"WZ" in AKC a Doberman Registration Number

kevn said:
Maybe the AKC should also include other letters in the registration, with or without a "Albino Z" indicating an ancestor from the past 30 or 40 years who had:

DM-Degenerative Myelopathy SOD1-A
DCM
Narcolepsy
von Willebrand's Disease Type I
and lots of other things.
Click to expand...
How do you know its been that long since your dog had an albino ancestor? Why are you getting so upset and defensive when you're getting answers to your question from people who know? Several of us, myself included, have experience with Z factor dobes...

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I'll be honest. I wanted to breed. After doing my research, learned that not only is it not a good idea to breed a z factor dog but I shouldn't have purchased one either. Too late for that now, but I love her so she's still mine for the rest of her life. I'll make due and deal with any problems that come up, it's my fault for not doing my research prior to buying a puppy. But my love of breed drove me to do my research and absolutely anyone who loves the breed will agree breeding should only be done to better the breed. Anyone who is not willing to do their research and/or take the advice of experienced owners/breeders/trainers is not out to better the breed and is just looking to make a quick buck. Chances are these "breeders" will also not do all of the appropriate health testing and screenings... A GOOD breeder doesn't make money on a litter of puppies. Many actually lose money.

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MischasMomma said:
How do you know its been that long since your dog had an albino ancestor? Why are you getting so upset and defensive when you're getting answers to your question from people who know? Several of us, myself included, have experience with Z factor dobes...

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Click to expand...

Since the first appearance of white dogs in the breed some 35 years ago, every dog descended from that original breeding has received a special AKC designation (Z list) if they are registered.
MischasMomma said:
How do you know its been that long since your dog had an albino ancestor? Why are you getting so upset and defensive when you're getting answers to your question from people who know? Several of us, myself included, have experience with Z factor dobes...

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Click to expand...

The first recorded white Doberman Pinscher was a female named Shebah whelped in 1976. She managed to be registered with the AKC despite being an albino but no albinos can be registered today. Thinking they were onto a good thing, the breeders bred the female as soon as she was able and eventually put her to her own son (which guaranteed that both parents carried the recessive gene). She then managed to have white puppies. All white Dobermans, and Dobermans with a "Z" in their AKC registration numbers, are thought to be descended from Shebah.

This happened because of pressure from the DPCA to insist that "Z" be placed in their registration to indicate this. They also wanted to disallow these dogs to have litters that could have full AKC registration. AKC allowed the "Z" to be put into their registration numbers, but did not go along with disallowing full AKC registration to offspring, but left that up to the breeders. Disagreement about this is kind of interesting. I haven't found out what the details were.

The "Z" has a stigma associated with it, because albino animals have many health problems, and if your doberman has a "Z", there's thought to maybe be something wrong with him or her...and insistence on not letting them have pups--spaying and neutering are demanded for them on the doberman forums. Pure bred dogs in general have more health problems than mutts, that is why their life expectancies are years less. However, other health issues with dobermans, especially dilutes, are also possible serious issues. I know, I just went through a major ordeal with a blue doberman that cost me thousands of dollars. I don't understand the special insistence that a registered doberman with a "Z" should never be bred, but no mention of, or AKC registration indication of ancestors of non Z-factored dobermans with major health issues.

"People who know" on this and other forums about this, are not presenting facts and figures that bear out what they claim, despite bragging about decades of experience. Do they have experience in breeding dogs with a "Z" in their AKC registrations, and comparing with those who don't?

I just think there is something amiss in thinking breeding a doberman with a "Z" in their AKC registration is detrimental to the doberman breed. Especially if they have a genetic test that indicates that the albino gene is just not there.

(reading back, gee, I might be banned from this forum!)
 
kevn said:
Since the first appearance of white dogs in the breed some 35 years ago, every dog descended from that original breeding has received a special AKC designation (Z list) if they are registered.


The first recorded white Doberman Pinscher was a female named Shebah whelped in 1976. She managed to be registered with the AKC despite being an albino but no albinos can be registered today. Thinking they were onto a good thing, the breeders bred the female as soon as she was able and eventually put her to her own son (which guaranteed that both parents carried the recessive gene). She then managed to have white puppies. All white Dobermans, and Dobermans with a "Z" in their AKC registration numbers, are thought to be descended from Shebah.

This happened because of pressure from the DPCA to insist that "Z" be placed in their registration to indicate this. They also wanted to disallow these dogs to have litters that could have full AKC registration. AKC allowed the "Z" to be put into their registration numbers, but did not go along with disallowing full AKC registration to offspring, but left that up to the breeders. Disagreement about this is kind of interesting. I haven't found out what the details were.

The "Z" has a stigma associated with it, because albino animals have many health problems, and if your doberman has a "Z", there's thought to maybe be something wrong with him or her...and insistence on not letting them have pups--spaying and neutering are demanded for them on the doberman forums. Pure bred dogs in general have more health problems than mutts, that is why their life expectancies are years less. However, other health issues with dobermans, especially dilutes, are also possible serious issues. I know, I just went through a major ordeal with a blue doberman that cost me thousands of dollars. I don't understand the special insistence that a registered doberman with a "Z" should never be bred, but no mention of, or AKC registration indication of ancestors of non Z-factored dobermans with major health issues.

"People who know" on this and other forums about this, are not presenting facts and figures that bear out what they claim, despite bragging about decades of experience. Do they have experience in breeding dogs with a "Z" in their AKC registrations, and comparing with those who don't?

I just think there is something amiss in thinking breeding a doberman with a "Z" in their AKC registration is detrimental to the doberman breed. Especially if they have a genetic test that indicates that the albino gene is just not there.

(reading back, gee, I might be banned from this forum!)
Click to expand...

I do know the history behind the Z factor and shebah, I meant how do you know it's been that far back for your specific dog if she is z factored. Maybe I misread your earlier post. What I like about this forum is many members are non judgemental, only want what's best for the breed. I am debating on spaying Mischa and have gotten nothing but support and advice from everyone here. As a responsible owner, you don't HAVE to spay or neuter your pet... And just because you don't doesn't mean you are breeding them either. I have support for my choice regardless of what I choose, and everyone has helped me weigh the pros and cons on both spaying and leaving her in tact... They also made sure I know what to expect and what I need to do if I choose not to spay... And one things for damn sure it will be a lot of work and diligence on my part if I choose not to but I will do everything required to prevent puppies because of her z factor.

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kevn said:
Since the first appearance of white dogs in the breed some 35 years ago, every dog descended from that original breeding has received a special AKC designation (Z list) if they are registered.


The first recorded white Doberman Pinscher was a female named Shebah whelped in 1976. She managed to be registered with the AKC despite being an albino but no albinos can be registered today. Thinking they were onto a good thing, the breeders bred the female as soon as she was able and eventually put her to her own son (which guaranteed that both parents carried the recessive gene). She then managed to have white puppies. All white Dobermans, and Dobermans with a "Z" in their AKC registration numbers, are thought to be descended from Shebah.

This happened because of pressure from the DPCA to insist that "Z" be placed in their registration to indicate this. They also wanted to disallow these dogs to have litters that could have full AKC registration. AKC allowed the "Z" to be put into their registration numbers, but did not go along with disallowing full AKC registration to offspring, but left that up to the breeders. Disagreement about this is kind of interesting. I haven't found out what the details were.

The "Z" has a stigma associated with it, because albino animals have many health problems, and if your doberman has a "Z", there's thought to maybe be something wrong with him or her...and insistence on not letting them have pups--spaying and neutering are demanded for them on the doberman forums. Pure bred dogs in general have more health problems than mutts, that is why their life expectancies are years less. However, other health issues with dobermans, especially dilutes, are also possible serious issues. I know, I just went through a major ordeal with a blue doberman that cost me thousands of dollars. I don't understand the special insistence that a registered doberman with a "Z" should never be bred, but no mention of, or AKC registration indication of ancestors of non Z-factored dobermans with major health issues.

"People who know" on this and other forums about this, are not presenting facts and figures that bear out what they claim, despite bragging about decades of experience. Do they have experience in breeding dogs with a "Z" in their AKC registrations, and comparing with those who don't?

I just think there is something amiss in thinking breeding a doberman with a "Z" in their AKC registration is detrimental to the doberman breed. Especially if they have a genetic test that indicates that the albino gene is just not there.

(reading back, gee, I might be banned from this forum!)
Click to expand...
They are not WHITE ! They are albino. They are not the same. And no good breeder will breed a Z factor dog what don't you get. It's not ok. It's not acceptable. So those of us who are here will not breed a z factor dog. @MischasMomma and I are very good friends my dog is not a Z factor and their temperament, mental and physical behaviors are very different. It is detrimental to the breeds HEALTH! They are inbred severely why would you want to breed that into a dog ? For profit that's the only reason. It's people with this mind set that are the destroying beautiful things so stop trying to argue that it's ok and doesn't hurt anything because fact of the matter is that it does. The Z is an issue.
 
I would like to point out that a Z factor dog does have the potential to be healthy and of sound temperament, even though they still should NOT be bred--just like anyone who gets a non-Z factor from a breeder who is not actively bettering the breed with extensive titling and health testing should not breed their dog even though it is not a Z factor. A lot goes in to breeding, and most dogs do not meet the criteria of "bettering the breed." Period.

ETA: I am not condoning the breeding or purchase of Z factored dogs; however I do believe that it is extraordinarily naive to treat Z factor like the ONLY concern when plenty of non Z factors die from DCM at early ages as well. Z should not be bred. Non-titled should not be bred. Non-health tested should not be bred. Animals coming from lines without titling or testing should not be bred.


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Mischa is skittish. Not reserved about strangers as Doberman should be, she is straight up skittish. I've had her since 10 weeks old, I attribute this to her breeding, likely the behavior side of the Z factor. @AresMyDobie is correct... Ares and Mischa are only about 5 weeks apart in age but temperament and behavior is sooooo vastly different.... You can tell one came from a good breeder and one didn't. It doesn't Mischa isn't a good dog, but It does mean I am being a responsible owner and not producing more puppies at the risk of carrying on her temperament. Any dog that is bred, even without the Z in the registration should still be a sound example of the breed. Not every doberman without a Z is fit to be bred.

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sgourle said:
I would like to point out that a Z factor dog does have the potential to be healthy and of sound temperament, even though they still should NOT be bred--just like anyone who gets a non-Z factor from a breeder who is not actively bettering the breed with extensive titling and health testing should not breed their dog even though it is not a Z factor. A lot goes in to breeding, and most dogs do not meet the criteria of "bettering the breed." Period.


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I was typing mine as you posted lol... You put that so much more matter of fact than I did!

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kevn said:
"People who know" on this and other forums about this, are not presenting facts and figures that bear out what they claim, despite bragging about decades of experience. Do they have experience in breeding dogs with a "Z" in their AKC registrations, and comparing with those who don't?
Click to expand...
It appears you are claiming that albinism in a Doberman is somehow different than other mammals. Please present facts and figures to support what that claim. If that isn't what you are claiming then feel free to research albinism in more detail and you will find plenty of facts and figures to support what we've all said.
Everyone here has told you the same thing, yet you won't accept it because no one has presented facts and figures. Here's a study with facts and figures for you to read A Partial Gene Deletion of SLC45A2 Causes Oculocutaneous Albinism in Doberman Pinscher Dogs
 
IMHO, it looks to me like @kevn is on here trying to get hard data on the negative sides of potentially breeding his Z factor bitch. But the majority on here are pet owners, yet there are some pro's here too, and we are not a scientific database to spout out what he is looking for. Do your own research kevn, we are just "well informed" individuals that love the breed, and want what's best for it. If you want "actuall facts" and hard data, I do not think this is the place to get it. There are no shortcuts in doing your own research!
I commend you for asking, and inquiring, but you really need to ask an agency that has actually been a part of a clinical study, or something of the like, for what you desire. If you want firsthand knowledge then go to the source. I'm sure that if you are truly searching for, and inquiring about this, then the data you so desperately want can be found, but probably not on a forum such as this.
If you want to be a BYB and breed your bitch, then that is your choice - but I don't think you will get support from any of us - that will be a decision you have to live with.

I would still like to see a photo of your dog, and the pedigree too. I'm beginning to think you may not even have one, and are just playing a game. Something seems amiss here, as you are obviously well informed about this issue and the health problems of the Doberman. Show, don't tell!
 
I'm sure those that breed WZ and outright ALBINOS tell the uneducated buyers the opposite of what everyone is trying to convey. Albino breeders will argue to the bitter end to try to justify their lack of ACTUAL love & passion for the well being of our breed. GREED is the ONLY reason for breeding WZ or Albino.
 
Panama said:
I'm sure those that breed WZ and outright ALBINOS tell the uneducated buyers the opposite of what everyone is trying to convey. Albino breeders will argue to the bitter end to try to justify their lack of ACTUAL love & passion for the well being of our breed. GREED is the ONLY reason for breeding WZ or Albino.
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Absolutely agree. I saw "rare white Doberman puppies" for sale for twice the price around here while looking for Mischa.

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I really am kicking myself now. I love her to death but man I've learned so much from being here. I really thought even though mischas dad and brothers were albino she wasn't affected because she was black and tan. At least I knew albino wasnt good or we might have ended up with one. My fiance fell in love with how they looked and I at least knew better than to take one of mischas brothers instead. I know better for next time. Neither of mischas parents are titled and both are WZ.
My next pup (hopefully in a few years) will be from titled, health tested parents with excellent temperaments. And even be cropped already! (I already know where I'll be getting my pup from when that time comes)

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