FCI countries with AKC doberman

[Juls]

Hello again!
In my country every doberman in a dog show is from American/southamerican lines, a lot of them imported from the USA, european line breeders even do not show their dogs because they do no win in spite of being a country under FCI regulations and standards.
Anybody have some idea of how are going to change the dog shows and breeding with the ban of docking and cropping and the changes in the standard? Could the orientation towards one line or the other change and possibly see both types of dogs competing in the same ring?
I hope this is not discussed in other threads, if it is please let me know
Greetings

 

[Ingrid H]

I'm not at all surprised that the dogs showing in Mexico are NA/SA lines. We live in the Western Hemisphere, so we have NA/SA dogs and the judges love them. As far as I know, FCI and AKC breed standards do not differ on any of the key points of the standard. It's basically the same standard, but the Euro and New World judges seem to have different preferences.

 

[JanS]

I wish I knew more since this isn't the first time I've heard it.

Perhaps someone like iceman can shed more light on the FCI.

 

[Dobs4ever]

There are basic difference but they are minor - the FCI allows for a little larger dog and they allow for 5%longer in males and 10% in females while the standard of both countries call for a square compact dog. Both standard call for elegance but the FCI produces a courser looking dog if they are not very careful in their breeding. FCI standard has done a beter job maintaining heavy bone without going to the Rottie look.

As far as judging -- any country that bans a a dog from a dog show that meets the REAL standard and then does not allow dogs to come in from countries that do allow c/d should be done away with. Otherwise they have succeed in doing exactly what they have done which is strangle what their countrymen are allowed to see. An uncropped do will not compete will with a cropped docked dog as they appearance is just so much more appealing for a protection dog. JMHO. So I don't see them coming together anytime soon. America may be the last hold out to preserve our beautiful Doberman as Herr Doberman intended from the beginning. All his dogs were cropped and docked. Who are we to destroy what he created???

 

[Gelcoater]

Julio,I ask because I do not know.
Is cropping/docking still legal in Mexico?
Have you been to the shows in MX?
We would love pics!!!

 

[FredC]

as Herr Doberman intended from the beginning. All his dogs were cropped and docked. Who are we to destroy what he created???

Its always been my understanding Mr Dobermann really didnt take appearance into consideration and was primarily interested in a specific temperament.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Then why did he crop and dock??? Yes he was breeding for a specific temperament but also a specific look otherwise why not leave the dog as it came or as one of its ancestors??? A cropped docked dog gives a more alert intimidating look about them. I do not believe you can separate the two as they go hand in hand and complement each other.

 

[FredC]

Then why did he crop and dock??? Yes he was breeding for a specific temperament but also a specific look otherwise why not leave the dog as it came or as one of its ancestors??? A cropped docked dog gives a more alert intimidating look about them. I do not believe you can separate the two as they go hand in hand and complement each other.

I was speaking in relation to a standard.. Of course i have no way of knowing anything for certain as far as the specifics of Herr Dobermanns master plan but id be willing to bet that the overall appearance of the dog was not nearly as important to him as the temperament he was working to achieve.. I firmly believe the look was consequential and further developed and perfected throughout the century.. Of course he would crop the dogs as that is what was done back then it was not for looks as it was utility and nobody asked questions.. However people are asking questions now..

 

[Gelcoater]

Then why did he crop and dock??? Yes he was breeding for a specific temperament but also a specific look otherwise why not leave the dog as it came or as one of its ancestors??? A cropped docked dog gives a more alert intimidating look about them. I do not believe you can separate the two as they go hand in hand and complement each other.

I thought it was done for defense reasons?
Less ear and tail for a man to grab when the dog engaged it.The "military" style crop we see in the pictures of dogs from the early days would accomplish that,today's show crop wouldn't as much.
Like has been mentioned in other threads like this the erect ears can be "aimed" at sound,like any predatory "dog";wolf,coyote,etc.

 

[Dobs4ever]

So that brings up a very good point for those that feel it is only cosmetic now because we no longer use them for protection. IF someone broke into your house and subdued a flopped eared Doberman because they grabbed the ears and tail was the dog able to protect as a Doberman???? Does anyone still in the back of their mind like the fact that they were bred to protect man???? Even the long thin ears would be very hard to hold on to in a fight. So yes he had a specific look he was going for - Longer muzzle than a Rottie, shorter harder coat, size was a big consideration. For me all of that speaks to the "look" of the dog he saw in his vision.

He did not care about beauty for sure but he had a look he worked to bring into existence.

 

[FredC]

Even the long thin ears would be very hard to hold on to in a fight.

Not for me.. If a Doberman was to attack me the first thing i think id do is try to rip its ears clean off its head.. Im not trying to be difficult here but those long show crops just scream "grab me i make beautiful handles" (not trying to sound like a bad ass or an idiot, But i truly believe those ears would be my target in a fight for my life with a dog with a lot of pointy teeth..

 

[Gelcoater]

Not for me.. If a Doberman was to attack me the first thing i think id do is try to rip its ears clean off its head.. Im not trying to be difficult here but those long show crops just scream "grab me i make beautiful handles" (not trying to sound like a bad ass or an idiot, But i truly believe those ears would be my target.

When Maxie was attacked by the Boardmanville dog (a lab/? mix) I grabbed it by the scruff of the neck and the tail and threw it across the parking lot.It was convenient having a large handle on its ass to use.It was lucky for him too,he pissed Maxie off and he knew it.He sure didn't come back for a second serving
In the event I was faced with a Doberman,I agree.Those tall ears would be handles too.

 

[Juls]

There are basic difference but they are minor - the FCI allows for a little larger dog and they allow for 5%longer in males and 10% in females while the standard of both countries call for a square compact dog. Both standard call for elegance but the FCI produces a courser looking dog if they are not very careful in their breeding. FCI standard has done a beter job maintaining heavy bone without going to the Rottie look.

As far as judging -- any country that bans a a dog from a dog show that meets the REAL standard and then does not allow dogs to come in from countries that do allow c/d should be done away with. Otherwise they have succeed in doing exactly what they have done which is strangle what their countrymen are allowed to see. An uncropped do will not compete will with a cropped docked dog as they appearance is just so much more appealing for a protection dog. JMHO. So I don't see them coming together anytime soon. America may be the last hold out to preserve our beautiful Doberman as Herr Doberman intended from the beginning. All his dogs were cropped and docked. Who are we to destroy what he created???

Ok but I'm thinking in the fact that a lot of breeders buy their Dobermans from USA. How the change in standard and c/d ban would change the shows in a coutry in which the mayority of the dogs and a lot of the judges come from a country with diferent rules? beacuse as far as I know, no c/d dogs will be alowed in FCI competitions and may be there is going to be other changes, and Mexico and all Center and South America are under FCI

 

[Kitty's mom]

Not for me.. If a Doberman was to attack me the first thing i think id do is try to rip its ears clean off its head.. Im not trying to be difficult here but those long show crops just scream "grab me i make beautiful handles" (not trying to sound like a bad ass or an idiot, But i truly believe those ears would be my target in a fight for my life with a dog with a lot of pointy teeth..

Twisting the ear correctly and putting pressure on the nerve cluster will cause any dog to back off at least momentarily.

 

[Juls]

Julio,I ask because I do not know.
Is cropping/docking still legal in Mexico?
Have you been to the shows in MX?
We would love pics!!!

Yes is legal
And yes I will I'm beginning to go to dog shows again, I've been far from them for a couple of years. Unfortunately I lost my laptop resentlly so the pictures I took are lost to, but as soon as I have more pictures I will post them.
Meanwhike I can tell ypou that these guys are the best dobermans in Mexico now:
D´Nicmar N Cambria's Fame N Rich
Viavolos Alexander Messi

 

[Dobs4ever]

You can grab the ears but tall and thin you will find does not give as good a hold as you might think. You will find them very slippery. So while you grab the ears you will find you don't have the control needed to keep the face and teeth far enough away. Even a GSD ears are harder to hold onto but the extra hair on them does make a little better grip. I just hope you never have to try it!!!

 

[Juls]

What the hell with the wrestling a doberman topic?? First of all the only way you cannot grab any dog from the ears is if he has no ears like a cropped napolitan mastiff, presa canario or something, and second.... FCI country with AKC doberman guys

 

[Dobs4ever]

Hey Juls these threads often go off in all kinds of directions!!! It is the internet.

 

[FredC]

Pretty simple really if you're competing under FCI rules whether you have an American Doberman Pinscher or European Dobermann, it's going to have to be natural to compete. This all starts at the beginning of 2015. (That's my understanding anyways.) I do know there is some grandfather clause regarding cropped and docked Doberman that are over a certain age.

 

[Gelcoater]

What the hell with the wrestling a doberman topic?? First of all the only way you cannot grab any dog from the ears is if he has no ears like a cropped napolitan mastiff, presa canario or something, and second.... FCI country with AKC doberman guys

Easy there,Juls.
It stemmed from the argument that c/d is pure cosmetic with no function.
Remember,this breed was created by a tax collector way back when.It's not to hard to imagine during those early years(much like today) the tax man caught a lot of flack.
His dog ha to be quick,agile and hard to get a hold of by those who...resisted.
Big floppy ears,a long tail,easy to grab.