Zorzi Family Del Littorio Kennel Snohomish Wa

[renberman]

Hey forum!
I am from Wa and I am in search of a reputable breeder near me (preferably in Wa but I could drive to Oregon).
I came across Zorzi Family Del Littorio kennel in snohomish wa and after some chatting and then research I’ve discovered a few threads on DCM and temperament. I found this breeder on the AKC marketplace.

http://www."another board"/puppy-corner/40510-del-littorio-puppies.html

https://www."another board"/threads/does-anyone-have-any-info-on-this-breeder.62821/post-1024407

I am not sure if DCM is detectable/diagnosable so whether this is just because of the breed or something else idk.

Does anyone have any experience with this breeder? I may visit but if there’s word around I will cross them off my list. Is akc marketplace the same as Breeder Referral List | in terms of safety/quality?

 

[Ravenbird]

I am not sure if DCM is detectable/diagnosable so whether this is just because of the breed or something else idk.

If you look at the threads under Health, you'll find tons of info on DCM. (use the Search option or just start scrolling)

In short, DCM is hereditary in Dobermans. There are two gene markers associated with it, but many many more genes that haven't been discovered so when a breeder has said they test clear or negative for DCM1 or DCM2, it means nothing. A dog can have one or both markers and never get DCM or they can be clear of both markers and still get it. However, that said, I don't think I'd purchase a puppy when both parents had both markers because genetics tend to express more when doubled up on both sides of parentage. The most reliable way to research your puppy is to look at longevity in the pedigree - dogs that live 10 + years. Responsible breeders will have 2 current heart tests, called Holters and Echos done at least once a year on breeding animals to prove that they are clear of heart disease that year. Since heart disease usually begins after age 5 or 6 and many breeders use younger dogs this, it's a test that cannot predict the health of the dog in the future, only the current status.

I'll look at the link to the breeder you found, but I wanted to get you started on DCM research so you can judge all your breeder prospects with that in mind.

 

[Ravenbird]

Zorzi Family Del Littorio kennel in snohomish wa

Short search, but the website lists their dogs born in the late 1990's to early 2000's. Nice working dogs, but even under their "news" the planing of their next litter was 2012, so unless they have a current FB page or something, I'd say these people are no longer in business.

 

[Ravenbird]

And yes, that "another board" did suggest that that breeder had DCM in their lines. Maybe that's what you were asking about, not about contacting the breeder about puppies. On this Doberman Chat we refer to the other major forums as "another board".

 

[Doberman Gang]

The United Doberman Club Nationals is in Oakville, WA this year. May 23rd thru the 28th. Not sure how far that is from you but would be a great place to meet lots of breeders from showline to working lines. You could also meet lots of Doberman owners that could answer questions and help direct you in finding a good puppy

 

[Ravenbird]

The United Doberman Club Nationals is in Oakville, WA this year. May 23rd thru the 28th. Not sure how far that is from you but would be a great place to meet lots of breeders from showline to working lines. You could also meet lots of Doberman owners that could answer questions and help direct you in finding a good puppy

EXCELLENT idea!!! I want to go to one of these soooo bad, but they are always a million miles from where I live.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

How about DanBar Ranch in Eastern WA? She is a member here, as it happens. I very much agree with her philosophy on dogs and Dobermans and what she breeds. I had a phone call with her a couple months or so ago when I was conducting my puppy search. I considered Diane my last hope for the Doberman (as far as I was concerned) but I ultimately decided to make a break from the Doberman breed for now and went a different direction.

 

[Panama]

AKC Marketplace means both parents are AKC registered & the litter is eligible for AKC registration. That's it.

The DPCA Breeder Referral list is a better place to start online research. As I said in another thread, research them thoroughly as well.

Go to shows near you. Be patient waiting for breeders to get back to you. Don't settle on a breeder just because they have puppies available.

 

[renberman]

This is a great! I’ll check it out because that’s not too far of a drive for me
Thank you for the info !

The United Doberman Club Nationals is in Oakville, WA this year. May 23rd thru the 28th. Not sure how far that is from you but would be a great place to meet lots of breeders from showline to working lines. You could also meet lots of Doberman owners that could answer questions and help direct you in finding a good puppy

 

[renberman]

AKC Marketplace means both parents are AKC registered & the litter is eligible for AKC registration. That's it.

The DPCA Breeder Referral list is a better place to start online research. As I said in another thread, research them thoroughly as well.

Go to shows near you. Be patient waiting for breeders to get back to you. Don't settle on a breeder just because they have puppies available.

This cleared up my confusion I’m so thankful for Doberman chat forum lol
As much as I want a puppy now, I will wait awhile longer and dig for more information. I’ll be giving DPCA some internet traffic these next few months.
I want to be well prepared with a variety of dobe ppl in my contacts.

A few replies have told me about shows so I have a bit of an outline for the searching process. Thank you!

 

[renberman]

How about DanBar Ranch in Eastern WA? She is a member here, as it happens. I very much agree with her philosophy on dogs and Dobermans and what she breeds. I had a phone call with her a couple months or so ago when I was conducting my puppy search. I considered Diane my last hope for the Doberman (as far as I was concerned) but I ultimately decided to make a break from the Doberman breed for now and went a different direction.

Thank you!
I was going to send Danbar ranch an inquiry email but on the bottom of the site it says “Sorry, but I do not place my dogs as "service dogs"

I made another thread about dobes as service dogs and I understand why this breeder has the policy.

I am mainly getting a puppy for companionship, workout buddy and service dog.
I am very interested in dog sports and protection/bite sports but I don’t have any experience so a dog with military/working lineage may be “too much dog for me?”

Doberman bred to be family pet will most likely be the route for me.

 

[renberman]

If you look at the threads under Health, you'll find tons of info on DCM. (use the Search option or just start scrolling)

In short, DCM is hereditary in Dobermans. There are two gene markers associated with it, but many many more genes that haven't been discovered so when a breeder has said they test clear or negative for DCM1 or DCM2, it means nothing. A dog can have one or both markers and never get DCM or they can be clear of both markers and still get it. However, that said, I don't think I'd purchase a puppy when both parents had both markers because genetics tend to express more when doubled up on both sides of parentage. The most reliable way to research your puppy is to look at longevity in the pedigree - dogs that live 10 + years. Responsible breeders will have 2 current heart tests, called Holters and Echos done at least once a year on breeding animals to prove that they are clear of heart disease that year. Since heart disease usually begins after age 5 or 6 and many breeders use younger dogs this, it's a test that cannot predict the health of the dog in the future, only the current status.

I'll look at the link to the breeder you found, but I wanted to get you started on DCM research so you can judge all your breeder prospects with that in mind.

Thank you for this! I’ve bookmarked your comment and will continue my research with it tab.
I have alot of respect for ethical breeders the amount of work seems real tough and extremely thorough.

I’ll be investing my energy into future puppy- preparedness is super important to me I’m grateful I found Doberman chat

 

[Ravenbird]

I am mainly getting a puppy for companionship, workout buddy and service dog.
I am very interested in dog sports and protection/bite sports but I don’t have any experience so a dog with military/working lineage may be “too much dog for me?”

If you've never had a high drive working dog it may be too much dog to delve into working lines. Some are much more stable than others but I personally wouldn't recommend it for what you want to do. I searched for a working line dog because I wanted to do bite sports. I got way more dog than I thought I'd get and I love her with all my heart. But even as my 3rd Doberman and a life of training sport horses and studying animal behavior, I was still got more dog than I ever imagined. I'm too far away to a club to get enough training in IGP (one of several bite sports) so I'm way behind on that dream, but the dog has to have work & a job to be happy so we dabble in everything. Her favorite is anything to do with nosework. If it's a challenge, a puzzle or anything to do with going fast my dog loves it. A couch potato she is not.

I'd give anything to go to the UDC National. If you go, you better report back here and tell us all about it!

 

[EricA]

If you look at the threads under Health, you'll find tons of info on DCM. (use the Search option or just start scrolling)

In short, DCM is hereditary in Dobermans. There are two gene markers associated with it, but many many more genes that haven't been discovered so when a breeder has said they test clear or negative for DCM1 or DCM2, it means nothing. A dog can have one or both markers and never get DCM or they can be clear of both markers and still get it. However, that said, I don't think I'd purchase a puppy when both parents had both markers because genetics tend to express more when doubled up on both sides of parentage. The most reliable way to research your puppy is to look at longevity in the pedigree - dogs that live 10 + years. Responsible breeders will have 2 current heart tests, called Holters and Echos done at least once a year on breeding animals to prove that they are clear of heart disease that year. Since heart disease usually begins after age 5 or 6 and many breeders use younger dogs this, it's a test that cannot predict the health of the dog in the future, only the current status.

I'll look at the link to the breeder you found, but I wanted to get you started on DCM research so you can judge all your breeder prospects with that in mind.

You are more or less suggesting / telling me to require that sort of testing from a 'responsible breeder' and at the same time telling me that those tests only tell a person what is the current state of the dog being tested at that EXACT moment in time is and that there is no 'guarantee' about future 'issues' with that dog or any other dog from its same lineage.

 

[Rits]

You are more or less suggesting / telling me to require that sort of testing from a 'responsible breeder' and at the same time telling me that those tests only tell a person what is the current state of the dog being tested at that EXACT moment in time is and that there is no 'guarantee' about future 'issues' with that dog or any other dog from its same lineage.

Well it is certainly more responsible than someone breeding without doing those tests and they could have caught that their breeding prospects had early DCM at the time of breeding...

 

[Ravenbird]

You are more or less suggesting / telling me to require that sort of testing from a 'responsible breeder' and at the same time telling me that those tests only tell a person what is the current state of the dog being tested at that EXACT moment in time is and that there is no 'guarantee' about future 'issues' with that dog or any other dog from its same lineage.

What @Rits said. The purpose of doing the tests every year is to verify NOT having DCM before breeding. If you are a breeder and carefully choose your mating pair and then a test shows one is at the beginning (silent) stage of DCM then you don't breed that dog. If that same breeding took place the year before, you could notify the owners of those now year-old puppies. Since the type of DCM that is killing Dobermans is 100% genetic and there is no 100% reliable prediction of carriers except by linage, this is all we've got. It's called "responsible" for a reason.

 

[EricA]

What @Rits said. The purpose of doing the tests every year is to verify NOT having DCM before breeding.

SNIP

It's called "responsible" for a reason.

You already said that the tests on young dogs being bred likely won't show anything anyway.

Since heart disease usually begins after age 5 or 6 and many breeders use younger dogs this, it's a test that cannot predict the health of the dog in the future, only the current status.

I wonder if your 'responsible' breeder has a clause in the contract that explicitly states that all of those tests on the parents guarantee nothing.

 

[EricA]

Well it is certainly more responsible than someone breeding without doing those tests and they could have caught that their breeding prospects had early DCM at the time of breeding...

I would ask my breeder if she had those tests done before she bred the parents but I already know what the answer would be.

If I tried to tell her that she was somehow 'not a responsible breeder' because she did not do those tests if would not go over well. I can't even imagine how poorly it would go over. Lady sadly does not have the same sense of humor as I do - Close in some respects but not quite the same with respect to stuff she went to school for.

Imagine if you can - Me trying to tell a licensed and practicing Veterinarian that owns her own clinic that she was an 'irresponsible breeder' for not testing the parents for stuff that she already knew would not likely even show up on those tests due to the age of the parents being tested.

I know for a fact that she owns the tools to do the testing and also knows exactly who to look to for / send those results to for 'specialist review' because she has done so with older Dobermans of mine in the past.

So yeah, Me trying to make a joke joke about her being 'not a responsible breeder' even though she had all the tools for the testing available and on hand and even had a line on specialists to review her tests results and 'could' have done done all of that testing with very little to no expense (doubt they would have charged her for their review if they knew that it was her personal dogs) - Would not have likely gone over well.

How exactly would she be 'irresponsible' for NOT testing for stuff that she knew darn well would not show up?

Neither of the parents for my current girls currently have thyroid problems or levels that require any sort of medication or intervention but -

BOTH of my girls do!

Should I also give her crap now about not doing regular thyroid panel testing on the young dogs that she bred back then that would not have shown any problems at the time of testing / breeding anyway (and that still don't have any thyroid problems today)?

 

[Ravenbird]

I was in no way suggesting that you go to your breeder and tell her how to run her business. If you like her dogs, her puppies, her breedings, by all means stay with her.

A person new to the breed wanted to know more about DCM so I was simply answering those questions to the best of my knowledge to help her look for a breeder. If your vet/breeder pleases you, that's awesome. You can recommend her if you think her puppies would fit this persons needs. My way is not the highway here, I apologize if it sounded like I was criticizing anyone who didn't follow what I consider good methods to help stop the continuation of hereditary DCM in Dobermans.

 

[Rits]

How exactly would she be 'irresponsible' for NOT testing for stuff that she knew darn well would not show up?

Because you cannot predict DCM without running yearly holter and echo and even then, if they do have it you will only catch it that day (and probably the remainder of their life). No one can say that they know it won't show up. There is not a genetic test that tells us these things yet.

If I tried to tell her that she was somehow 'not a responsible breeder' because she did not do those tests if would not go over well.

I apologize, but I think you may be missing the point? This was advice given to help someone find a responsible breeder before purchasing a puppy. Nothing you can do after the fact...other than to go with a different breeder if you didn't want to support a breeder that didn't do heart health clearances on their breeding prospects of a breed known for heart disease.