Zorzi Family Del Littorio Kennel Snohomish Wa

[EricA]

Because you cannot predict DCM without running yearly holter and echo and even then, if they do have it you will only catch it that day (and probably the remainder of their life). No one can say that they know it won't show up. There is not a genetic test that tells us these things yet.

I apologize, but I think you may be missing the point? This was advice given to help someone find a responsible breeder before purchasing a puppy. Nothing you can do after the fact...other than to go with a different breeder if you didn't want to support a breeder that didn't do heart health clearances on their breeding prospects of a breed known for heart disease.

Ravenbird nailed it when she mentioned young dogs and testing and about that stuff usually not showing up.

In my opinion, pretty much every doggie medical fact that she shared was spot on. Was pretty clear to me that she did her homework!

Have much respect for both of you and everything you say. We agree much more than we disagree.


But still -

I am not going to knock a breeder for not testing a dog for stuff they know darn well they will not likely see. I know one breeder that I consider 'respectable' that does the sort of testing that you suggest as a matter of routine. She goes way past honest with the clause in her contract that clearly states that the testing she did is 'no guarantee' that the pup in question will not get whatever.

 

[Kswoodssue]

The whole point concerning DCM is that your dog can inherit a tendency toward getting this disease. Just as humans can inherit tendencies for heart disease or diabetes or obesity or diseases of addiction, animals can also inherit tendencies for disease, stable temperament, athleticism, etc. Granted, heredity is most likely not the ONLY factor, but testing and the science is all we have right now. When more definitive testing or causative factors are defined, we may well find out that regular holters etc are not overly helpful, but for now it is what we have. This whole issue may make the breeding of Doberman Pinschers seem like a rich man’s game, but information gathering and education and dedication to excellence will overcome this disease and burying our heads in the sand will not.

 

[okaygreatthanks]

Very late to this thread, but lots of good talk around DCM testing and genetics!

We live in Everett, WA — in regards to breeders, you might consider joining the PSDPC and going to some events to meet local breeders. Plus, the club has an annual health day where you can have your dog’s echo done and they offer holter rental for members.

Roberto (Zorzoi) is always at our club meetings, and is very active in sharing his dogs’ accomplishments. I think a few pups are around 8 months old, so he may still be breeding and it could be worth reaching out!

Other great WA breeders would be Shayna Sitton of Prima (Chewelah, WA), and two PSDPC members: Elaine Hopper of Starlaine (Renton, WA), and Faye Strauss of Sherluck (Kent, WA). Faye is the president of PSDPC and she mentored our Oregon-based breeder (Heartwood) when she started breeding 30 years ago. I know all of them are committed to all the necessary health testing (echo, holter, genetics, hips, thyroid, etc.)

 

[sugabaker1]

I bought a puppy from Roberto and this spring she got acne and was bleeding excessively from a zit. I took her to the vet and got her on antibiotics and topicals and the vet suggested she be tested for VWD
I sent off genetic testing with Wisdom
panel and not only does she have 2 markers for VWD, also 2 markers for DCM.
Don’t be fooled by his song and dance, showing you to his trophy room, wheeling out a binder showing genetic testing saying clear.
It’s all smoke and mirrors.

 

[JanS]

I sent off genetic testing with Wisdom
panel and not only does she have 2 markers for VWD, also 2 markers for DCM.

That doesn't mean they're genetically unhealthy. If your pup is clinically vWD affected it could cause excess bleeding, but if it's just affected or a carrier, it doesn't mean it's going to have health problems. As for the DCM markers, you need to do an echo and holter to tell the health of your own dog. Both of those DNA things are preliminary tests if you plan to breed but you don't necessarily need to worry if you don't plan to breed.

 

[Rits]

wheeling out a binder showing genetic testing saying clear.

Did he say the parents were both clear for vWD and the DCM markers? Like Jan mentioned, vWD affected dobermans are lucky and have the mildest form, usually not clinically affected (low v factor). V factor can go down as they age.

For the DCM markers, they don't mean anything at this point. Dogs who were clear of both markers have died of DCM and dogs who have 2 copies of both markers have died of something else at old age. There are more markers out there that we unfortunately haven't discovered that add to the equation of whether they'll develop DCM or not.

 

[Ravenbird]

Don’t be fooled by his song and dance, showing you to his trophy room, wheeling out a binder showing genetic testing saying clear

If he has a binder showing genetic test results and is authentic through the testing lab with dogs name etc. then it should be correct. If he is making fake certificates that would be dangerously overstepping legal boundaries with the name of the testing lab. OFA has a public share of all dogs certified through them, so most reputable breeders use OFA for reporting health tests. As mentioned, the current DCM1 and 2 tests are not reliable for any proof of getting DCM or being free of that disease.

For your dog to be affected VWD the mating had to have been a Carrier to Carrier or an Affected to a Carrier. I personally would never purchase a dog of this type of breeding, even if symptoms are mild, any dog affected with VWD can have complications. Dobermans have enough health issues as it is without adding a very easily avoided issue. If the tests were there on the two parents and you failed to understand that the mating could produce an affected puppy, well, now you know, and bad on the breeder for not explaining the reasons they thought it was a good idea to take the chance.

 

[sugabaker1]

That doesn't mean they're genetically unhealthy. If your pup is clinically vWD affected it could cause excess bleeding, but if it's just affected or a carrier, it doesn't mean it's going to have health problems. As for the DCM markers, you need to do an echo and holter to tell the health of your own dog. Both of those DNA things are preliminary tests if you plan to breed but you don't necessarily need to worry if you don't plan to breed.

She’s excessively bleeding- that’s an issue. Also she has a 78% chance of having DCM- even pet owners have concern of a shortened life span as well as the additional costs (echo/holter/probable meds) associated. So, yes, there’s worry even though I won’t be producing more dogs.

 

[Ravenbird]

Also she has a 78% chance of having DCM

Where do you get those statistics? All Dobermans are at risk of DCM, around 50% in their lifetime, but many of those don't get it until late in life and is not the primary COD. Again, the genetic markers do not change chances of getting the disease. If Wisdom declared the 78% chance because of the gene markers, that is false information.

The best way to judge chances of DCM is by longevity in the pedigree and the number of DCM deaths in the lines. Unfortunately many people do not report COD, or worse, call it bloat or accident to try to keep their kennel name in good standing.

even pet owners have concern of a shortened life span as well as the additional costs (echo/holter/probable meds) associated

Every Doberman owner, whether pet or breeder, is encouraged to do echo & holter testing yearly to catch DCM before outward symptoms appear.

I am sorry you are going through this with your puppy and are learning & sharing your experience with the breeder.

 

[sugabaker1]

“Maisy has two copies of the Dilated Cardiomyopathy, DCM3 risk variant, or genotype GG. Please note that scientific publications have only explored the clinical relevance of this risk variant in European Dobermans at this time. DCM is a complex disorder, and risk of development is influenced by a combination of genetic variants and environmental factors that are still being researched. The results of DCM3 and DCM4 should always be interpreted together to estimate the genetic risk profile of an individual. Likelihood for development of the condition with this DCM3 result, in combination with possible inheritance outcomes of the DCM4 risk variant (listed second in the genotype), are reported as: High risk (76-99% lifetime risk) in genotypes GG/GG and GG/AG (0 or 1 copy DCM4), ”

 

[Ravenbird]

Thank you for that - I'm assuming you are quoting your Wisdom test? I know the 3 & 4 tests are rather new and last read that they are not set in concrete for solid risk, but promising markers.

Is your dog European lines? Have you looked at Pedigrees of dobermanns to check her ancestry COD listings? This info is voluntary so you have to take it as you see it, but it's obvious that some Euro lines have much more incident of early DCM than others.

 

[Ziva23]

Short search, but the website lists their dogs born in the late 1990's to early 2000's. Nice working dogs, but even under their "news" the planing of their next litter was 2012, so unless they have a current FB page or something, I'd say these people are no longer in business.

He is in business as of June 2025