F
FredC
I dont know about that site personally i wouldnt consider surpassing 7 years an accomplishment even for dobermans. Just my opinion but i dont think that site is doing there albino dobermans any favors esp in conformation.
White dobermans
- Thread starter Zeus19742008
- Start date
DobieLvr
Novitiate
Honestly... what do you want here? They are showing their dogs - at least trying - they can't show AKC - so what exactly is left? Something YOU approve of? The wonderful "AKC" is all there is mentality...they are not the begin and end all of registries - their show's are not the "best" that is out there - their titles are not the only ones that count. To me a English title is worth more than a AKC title.. "The Kennel Club" has been around longer!
Have you ever heard of a "International Champion?"
Why don't you give the white dog a rest? Do you think what you post here will make the difference - ever?
VonDoom, or anybody else here who does show their dobermans, isn't it a requirement when you enter a show that you provide pedigree papers for you dog? I'd think it would only be downhill from there as to whether , or not a Z factored doberman would go anywhere in the confirmation ring.
Panama
Hot Topics Subscriber
Of course I have!! My female earned her National & International JA Champion titles at 11 months, her UKC Champion title and her AKC CGC at 21 months, and her (OffeneKlasse) International Champion title at 23 months.
The NKC and the Kennel Club (UK) are not the same clubs.
UK standard: Colour
Definite black, brown, blue or fawn (Isabella) only, with rust red markings. Markings to be sharply defined, appearing above each eye, on muzzle, throat and forechest, on all legs and feet and below tail. White markings of any kind highly undesirable.
International Champion titles (or CACIB) are not from the NKC. They are from the FCI (The Fédération Cynologique Internationale) or UCI (Union Cynologie International).
Panama
Hot Topics Subscriber
Not sure how to put a link in here, but I hope one of these will get you there...
http://thumb12.webshots.net/t/52/652/7/68/58/2534768580030731332IKitmt_th.jpg
http://thumb12.webshots.net/t/52/652/7/68/58/2534768580030731332IKitmt_th.jpg
Miller Dobes
Novitiate
The AKC # is listed in the catalog and the public would know the dog was Z factored. The judge's book does not show that and they can't even know the dog's name or parents. It has a number by the class and the judge marks numbers. Only after the judging does a judge know any dog's information. The judges do not have that information and is not allowed too. So being Z has nothing to do with the judging. The doberman fancy might not be encouraging since most belong to dpca and most are interested in improving the breed, not promoting albinoism.
So if anyone is discouraged from showing a Z factored dog, it is because they can't win. There are few and I believe it is because albinoism came from poor quality dogs that were inbred. When you inbreed, you lock in the faults.....good or bad.....in this case the albinos were of the poorest quality.
There was a very good post on this link of an agility champion that was a rescue had success but it was due to a dedicated experienced handler. She acknowledged the dog have many problems in sight etc. Having an albino rescue is admirable......as is any rescue. Trying to fool people into thinking albonism is accepted is misleading. It is not acceptable to breed to or with a Z factored dog, according to the Doberman Club of America...that's why the dog is idenified by a Z.......
I have had calls from albino breeders wanting to breed their dog. Some have been straight forward. Others have tried to deceive. This is one big reason people check out the homes and have attorney's look over contracts. It is a risk when you sell full registration because they sometimes will register the dog with another Kennel Club and try to improve their albinos. It has happened to some fine breeders and they were wrecked. There is a lot of people that seek to justify the breeding of Z factored dogs........so sad for the dogs. The people are already sad.
Good post Panama!
Becky
So if anyone is discouraged from showing a Z factored dog, it is because they can't win. There are few and I believe it is because albinoism came from poor quality dogs that were inbred. When you inbreed, you lock in the faults.....good or bad.....in this case the albinos were of the poorest quality.
There was a very good post on this link of an agility champion that was a rescue had success but it was due to a dedicated experienced handler. She acknowledged the dog have many problems in sight etc. Having an albino rescue is admirable......as is any rescue. Trying to fool people into thinking albonism is accepted is misleading. It is not acceptable to breed to or with a Z factored dog, according to the Doberman Club of America...that's why the dog is idenified by a Z.......
I have had calls from albino breeders wanting to breed their dog. Some have been straight forward. Others have tried to deceive. This is one big reason people check out the homes and have attorney's look over contracts. It is a risk when you sell full registration because they sometimes will register the dog with another Kennel Club and try to improve their albinos. It has happened to some fine breeders and they were wrecked. There is a lot of people that seek to justify the breeding of Z factored dogs........so sad for the dogs. The people are already sad.
Good post Panama!
Becky
nc_dobemom
Novitiate
IMO (and this is gonna probably be my final post on this subject) the DPCA has shortchanged the white Doberman owners.
1.) The two white dogs that were obtained for the "study" in the 70's were from horrendous conditions. They were kept in a building with no windows and ere not socialized. ANY dog kept in those conditions would have temperament problems. The resulting puppies from those two dogs were all black/tan, how can you evaluate the white dogs when they are all black/tan??
2.) There have been no attempts from the DPCA to do another genetic study on the whites of today. They are basing their facts and Operation White Out on outdated research imo.
3.) I can honestly and unbiasly say the whites I've had the pleasure of meeting were NOT the snarling, blind, deaf, fearful mutations the DPCA and other anti-white suppoters want the public to think they are. They acted like any other Doberman. They were not squinting or running into things, they acting like normal dogs. Are their poor specimens? YES of course there are but the good out weigh the bad.
4.)The white Dobermans are here to stay and I think the DPCA and the powers to be would be smart to change their policies to include these dogs.
5.) White Doberman, IMO, have characteristics of leuism not albinoism. But I'm no genticist lol
In closing, i've been around Dobermans since before birth and I've loved these dogs for as long as I can remember. In the past seven years though I've seen things and heard people say things that has turned my stomach. I have literally lost my passion for this breed and it breaks my heart that I've let PEOPLE turn me sour about a breed I LOVE. But I just can not deal with the consist judgments and belittlment you have to endure if you don't breed or do things the way "others" do. I will be Doberman-less as of next Saturday. Ginger is being placed in a pet home and I don't think I will be coming back here or any other Doberman boards for a long long time.
My goals for right now are to show Samson and finish school. In the furture I hope to be able to get a well bred Doberman and go from there. The sad thing is me getting a wellbred puppy will depend on the doberman nazis not finding out I am looking and not interferring by posting their "warnings ".
1.) The two white dogs that were obtained for the "study" in the 70's were from horrendous conditions. They were kept in a building with no windows and ere not socialized. ANY dog kept in those conditions would have temperament problems. The resulting puppies from those two dogs were all black/tan, how can you evaluate the white dogs when they are all black/tan??
2.) There have been no attempts from the DPCA to do another genetic study on the whites of today. They are basing their facts and Operation White Out on outdated research imo.
3.) I can honestly and unbiasly say the whites I've had the pleasure of meeting were NOT the snarling, blind, deaf, fearful mutations the DPCA and other anti-white suppoters want the public to think they are. They acted like any other Doberman. They were not squinting or running into things, they acting like normal dogs. Are their poor specimens? YES of course there are but the good out weigh the bad.
4.)The white Dobermans are here to stay and I think the DPCA and the powers to be would be smart to change their policies to include these dogs.
5.) White Doberman, IMO, have characteristics of leuism not albinoism. But I'm no genticist lol
In closing, i've been around Dobermans since before birth and I've loved these dogs for as long as I can remember. In the past seven years though I've seen things and heard people say things that has turned my stomach. I have literally lost my passion for this breed and it breaks my heart that I've let PEOPLE turn me sour about a breed I LOVE. But I just can not deal with the consist judgments and belittlment you have to endure if you don't breed or do things the way "others" do. I will be Doberman-less as of next Saturday. Ginger is being placed in a pet home and I don't think I will be coming back here or any other Doberman boards for a long long time.
My goals for right now are to show Samson and finish school. In the furture I hope to be able to get a well bred Doberman and go from there. The sad thing is me getting a wellbred puppy will depend on the doberman nazis not finding out I am looking and not interferring by posting their "warnings ".
Sorry you feel this way,nc_dobermom,I understand you have strong feelings about your dog but then why would people disagreeing with you cause you to give up your dog? I try and keep an open mind which is why I tried to get accurate info.To me rescue people have thje most credibility on this subject and I posted the experience and opinions of someone who's had 200 whites in her rescue.You are entitled to whatever opinion you want,but I think a doberman information site like this should have as accurate information posted as possible so that someone seeking info before getting a dobe can get the whole picture.I apologize for any hard feelings I may have caused and genuinely wish you well!
nc_dobemom
Novitiate
I'm not speaking about you or anyone on this forum directly. It's just an accumulation of 7 years of being told my dogs are trash, I'm an idiot, I'm stupid, I'm a BYBer, I'm puppymiller in it only for the money, I'm ruining the breed, etc.
Sometimes enough is just enough and I can't deal with it anymore.
I'd like to think I've defiantly developed a tougher skin through enduring that but it's not worth my mental stability anymore.
EVERYONE is entitled to their opinions on things...that is what makes America such a great country, but if your opinion isn't what some think is the "correct" opinion you are treated like !@#$%.
Sometimes enough is just enough and I can't deal with it anymore.
I'd like to think I've defiantly developed a tougher skin through enduring that but it's not worth my mental stability anymore.
EVERYONE is entitled to their opinions on things...that is what makes America such a great country, but if your opinion isn't what some think is the "correct" opinion you are treated like !@#$%.
Dobified
Jr Member
I have been involved with Dobermans for over 25 yrs and have done tons of research, tons of learning about genetics and tons of talking to reputable responsible breeders, "white" dobermans are a threat to the genetic integrity of the Doberman Pinscher and anyone breeding dilberately out of the set breed standard is irresponsible.. that is not just my opinion it is the opinion of Doberman breeders, Doberman clubs and people who have been involved in the breed for many years.
" White " dobes are albino, they are not like white german shepherds that have dark coloured skin and have no issuses associated with Albinos...Albino Dobes came into exsistent through the irresponsible inbredding of one albino female, she was bred back to her OWN sons time and time again to produce more Albinos.. that is wrong and that is irresponible and smacks of a BYB who only wants to make money with total disregard for the breed.
Personally I would not even look at a Doberman that I intended to show if it was white factored. The Albino gene needs to be wiped out of the breed as to restore the proper genetics to the breed.
Strong words ? YOU BET...am I slamming anyone who owns a Albino.. no not at all. The fact is they are out there and they need homes. They can make good pets with the proper socalization, proper care of their eyes, their skin etc etc.. however they should not be worthy of breeding and should be spayed or nuetered. Do I have strong feeling about the people that do dilberately breed a albino to produce more.. you bet I do. Anyone in any breed that breeds against the standard and breeds for a genetic fault/problem is only doing so to make money not improve the breed at all.
Ok off my soapbox and if I have offended anyone I am sorry but I feel very strongly about breeding against standards and breeding for genetic faults and someone needs to say something about it.
" White " dobes are albino, they are not like white german shepherds that have dark coloured skin and have no issuses associated with Albinos...Albino Dobes came into exsistent through the irresponsible inbredding of one albino female, she was bred back to her OWN sons time and time again to produce more Albinos.. that is wrong and that is irresponible and smacks of a BYB who only wants to make money with total disregard for the breed.
Personally I would not even look at a Doberman that I intended to show if it was white factored. The Albino gene needs to be wiped out of the breed as to restore the proper genetics to the breed.
Strong words ? YOU BET...am I slamming anyone who owns a Albino.. no not at all. The fact is they are out there and they need homes. They can make good pets with the proper socalization, proper care of their eyes, their skin etc etc.. however they should not be worthy of breeding and should be spayed or nuetered. Do I have strong feeling about the people that do dilberately breed a albino to produce more.. you bet I do. Anyone in any breed that breeds against the standard and breeds for a genetic fault/problem is only doing so to make money not improve the breed at all.
Ok off my soapbox and if I have offended anyone I am sorry but I feel very strongly about breeding against standards and breeding for genetic faults and someone needs to say something about it.
diekrazy
Well-Known Member
I agree but that will never happen without proper genetic testing to see which dogs are carriers of the gene and which are not. Simply s/n all of the z factored dobes out there is not fair. Proper knowledge about z factored dobes is key to any owner of a z factored dobe.
If the DPCA would focus their efforts against vWd like they do "operation white out" can you imagine what they could accomplish. Luckily there is a test for vWd and it can be wiped out!
Dobejazz
Novitiate
Most Z factored dobes are not breeding quality anyway and the Z is a tool the same as the vWd test to eradicate it from the breed
Personally - I hope they find a cause/marker for DCM soon - although good breeders are doing their best to avaoid DCM in their lines. Which would you rather have a vWd carrier that lives trouble free for 14 years or a clear that drops dead of DCM at 5?
Some very good posts!! I agree and the main reason I don't think much of the"standards" is because I think health and longevity along with intelligence and personality should be the priority rather than a certain"look"If they'd focus on DCM,VonW.,cancer and longevity along with albinism,in my opinion we'd have better dogs in the long run!! If I knew my dog would have a better chance of seeing 15-16 good yrs. and probably not get DCM,etc.,I could give a darn whether she is smaller/larger/has a disqualifying mark/etc.I agree totally with Dobified but I also think they focus on albinism because it affects appearance and think it's a little hypocritical to not put the same effort into breeding out the other life threatening problems with our breed, good point diekrazy!! (no offense to anyone who shows or is involved with the AKC) just my opinion
I'm concerned that all this critiquing of other peoples choices of dobermans is causing some of the members of this forum to feel unwanted. It's certainly not their dogs fault. We all need to keep in mind that this is someones companion animal we are talking about. No one of us is perfect. And we shouldn't be sitting in judgment of others here. It doesn't make this forum look good to the general public either. Could we please just keep to the topic at hand and stop with the put downs of ownership on this thread? Just my two cents worth. Sorry in advance if I offended anyone with my comments, but enough is enough.
Panama
Hot Topics Subscriber
No one is blaming the dogs. We fully understand they didn't ask to be here. All dogs regardless of color or bloodlines deserves a loving home. It is the continued production of them. Those that jump on the White wagon, (some unaware of the ongoing issues and debates as they'd probably been misled in the first place), join in with white and Z factored producers, supporting their theories, yet whine when others do not or are not accepting of their choices...
They continue to complain that the DPCA needs to open their eyes.... please... they discrimate against our dogs...
No, no one is perfect (I don't recall seeing anyone claiming to be), just as no dog is perfect, but shouldn't the primary goal of producing them be to get as close to perfect as possible? What is the perfect Doberman, read the standard.
