Opinions on conformation?

Ravenbird

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This dog, which will not be named and I cut out as much as I could to try to make it anonymous, as well as reducing color to black & white. It is being highly admired and even gushed over in some show dog discussions.

I suppose I could be very confused about the difference in "well defined chest" and "pigeon chest"or "overdone chest", but the chest on this Dobe to me is beyond "well defined" and seriously into "pigeon chest/overdone" definition. The back is not "slightly sloped", but extremely sloped. The back legs were set correctly, not stretched at all which can make the slope steeper. This animal was stacked correctly. All judging is opinions only, and since only a very few of us here are experts in conformation, what are your opinions of the chest and the back slope of this dog as defined by the standard? The thing about opinions is that you can't be "wrong", after all it's just an opinion, right? My opinion is this dog is overstepping the boundaries of the standard and is the preferred type in many rings. It's an example of how the breed is being more and more exaggerated and it will eventually change things just like the over done Euros but in a different way....

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I don't know much about conformation, but the 'year' I spent in conformation taught me that judges put up what they like. I saw a few dogs that were taller than the standard become champions; as well as dogs with a weak rear win a class. Our female was just 6 months old, and was covered in hives....I was going to pull her entry, and her breeder told me it was fine to take her in looking like this.....she won the class. Then got winners bitch in the 6-9 month....I was baffled, and others in the class were not too thrilled with it :thumbsdown:
 
I don't know all that much either but I do not like the pigeon chest, which is being exaggerated more and more all the time. I'm not a fan of that topline either but I know those things can vary a lot, depending on the judges opinion.
 
I’ve heard people in other breeds say the sketches to illustrate their standards are not great. I’m wondering if that’s the case for Dobermans or if the preferred style now is just different, because it seems rare that the winning dogs look like the ideal dog and bitch in our illustrated standard…

To me, the dog you showed looks just like the example of a pigeon chest. They are both technically faults, but if you had to pick one I’d rather an overdone chest than a pigeon chest, simply because I don’t like the “pointy” look of a pigeon chest. The top line is sloped but it does look smooth and firm.
 
He's about 1.5 years. But I don't like seeing it if he's 6 months old or 4 years old.

The point is not about the sketches as they have been the same written and drawn descriptions for years. but suddenly we are seeing shapes winning in the ring that never use to even exist. Just like the overdone Euros looking Dane-like, all of a sudden it becomes not only normal, but sought after. I agree on conformation shows to keep to the standard, but they are changing the dogs by loud applause to shapes that were never meant to be.
 
I'm just a country bumpkin never been to a show. Simply by eye, its clear that dog is not remotely close to standard and reminds me of the freak show GSDs. More proof that confo is not for the health of the dog but the ego of owners following the latest fashion.
 
reminds me of the freak show GSDs. More proof that confo is not for the health of the dog but the ego of owners following the latest fashion.
Our club had inventory day yesterday and they were talking about what is happening to the GSD, both drive and conformation wise. They don't care for it at all.
 
He's about 1.5 years. But I don't like seeing it if he's 6 months old or 4 years old.
I only ask because typically the angulation in front and rear lessens quite a bit with age, changing the look of the dog by a bit! At 1.5, it shouldn't be this extreme. I can't stand pigeon breast but I've rarely seen it in shows around here. I think its becoming more common in South America.
 
I'm just a country bumpkin never been to a show. Simply by eye, its clear that dog is not remotely close to standard and reminds me of the freak show GSDs. More proof that confo is not for the health of the dog but the ego of owners following the latest fashion.
Kevin a.k.a. BG1…scroll to 24:30……and view to end of October 2025 DPCA seminar on judging that provides a FYI that is remotely connected to the topic at issue
……..

In the common bond of Dobermans ……Mikel
 
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I think its becoming more common in South America.
It's mostly the heavy SA confo dogs that I'm seeing this in and the NA dogs that are blending in more and more SA lines specifically for this look, so it's becoming more common in North America now. Just an observation that a little is good but too much becomes a problem. And that goes for anything, not just this example, and not just SA!

What is kind of freaking me out is that people are loving the look and saying "more of this, please" and now it's becoming an over-done thing which will be hard to reverse. It's how Dachshunds backs got longer and longer, how Frenchies faces got flatter and flatter, how GSDs backs & hocks sloped down more & more and for Dobermans the Euros that bred for a more powerful head to get away from the snipey nose, now they have a Dane-type head, with wet mouth and heavy flews - all exaggerations of a normal feature of that particular breed gone bad.

I'm not here to bash, it's just an observation of change that, if it continues without breeders being careful, it can get to a point of grotesqueness and begging to stick with the standard instead of seeing how far it can be stretched.
 
It's how Dachshunds backs got longer and longer, how Frenchies faces got flatter and flatter, how GSDs backs & hocks sloped down
Isn't that the truth? I have a couple of non-show friends with Dachshunds and the back problems are very prevalent. On of them jumped off the steps the wrong way and had to have surgery and be in a wheelchair for about a month. Frenchies can barely breathe anymore and we know that some of the exaggerated GSD's have a hard time walking, let alone working.
 
I don't like the thinness to the tail. I've always had a theory that a thin tail could indicate thin bones. I could be wrong.

Then again, the tail looks fairly thick at the base. I wonder if something in the docking/healing process can cause atrophy.

This Dobe's topline slope doesn't look that extreme to me. The chest does protrude too much, and is perhaps bordering on extreme.
 
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Kevin a.k.a. BG1…scroll to 24:30……and view to end of October 2025 DPCA seminar on judging that provides a FYI that is remotely connected to the topic at issue
……..

In the common bond of Dobermans ……Mikel
🙌 great info, watching now...
"No deviation on Temperament...leans away, shy...out of the ribbons (even today...)
 
🙌 great info, watching now...
"No deviation on Temperament...leans away, shy...out of the ribbons (even today...)
Oh yeah...this just confirmed "I'm a country bumpkin"...thsts plain to see! 🤣
 
Appears that someone else on Facebook has the exact same thing I'm saying except it's about her breed, the Beauceron. Some people say things so much better than I do, I just have to share it. Amazing how these thoughts are happening all over the working dog world: Exchanging working dog conformation that always worked for something showy, fancy, exaggerated to catch the eye, yet failing to work them to make sure that this new conformation is still functional and to make sure the temperament is still holding what it takes to do the work.

Nóri Márton ·
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𝐓𝐡𝐞 𝐥𝐨𝐬𝐬 𝐨𝐟 𝐓𝐑𝐔𝐄 𝐭𝐲𝐩𝐞 𝐢𝐧 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐁𝐞𝐚𝐮𝐜𝐞𝐫𝐨𝐧. 𝐀 𝐜𝐚𝐥𝐥 𝐭𝐨 𝐩𝐫𝐨𝐭𝐞𝐜𝐭 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐛𝐫𝐞𝐞𝐝’𝐬 𝐞𝐬𝐬𝐞𝐧𝐜𝐞!
Unfortunately, we are seeing more and more Beaucerons that no longer resemble what this breed was meant to be. It’s disheartening and deeply concerning. The rise of hypertype Beaucerons, dogs that are oversized, heavy-boned, and built more like Dobermans with exaggerated chests, sloping toplines, and bulky frames is a trend that completely contradicts the original purpose of this incredible working breed.
Let’s not forget what the Beauceron truly is: a WORKING dog, bred for endurance, intelligence, agility, and stamina. These dogs were never meant to be statues in a show ring or decorative pets. They were made to move all day, to cover ground effortlessly, to think independently, and to have the physical and mental balance to manage livestock. Their construction was always functional. Every line, angle, and muscle served a purpose.
When people claim that “the breed lacks type” they are often defending these exaggerated, showy versions, the so-called “modern” Beaucerons that stray far from the standard. But in reality, the true type is being lost in favor of what looks impressive to the untrained eye: massive bodies, heavy heads, deep chests, and sloping backs that may look powerful but destroy the very essence of what this breed was designed to do.
This shift is not progress. It’s regression disguised as refinement. The Beauceron should be athletic, balanced, and functional, not clumsy or overdone. It is a working dog, not a caricature of one. Those who continue to promote and reward these hypertype specimens (including show judges) should take a serious look at the breed standard and the history that shaped it. The Beauceron was never meant to resemble a Doberman or a Mastiff. It was built to work sheep and cattle across the plains of France, not to win ribbons through exaggeration.
To anyone who claims that the older, more moderate dogs were “lacking substance” or “too light,” I urge you to study the photos and records of the Beaucerons that built the foundation of the breed. Those dogs were balanced, efficient, and strong without losing agility or grace. That is the original type, the true Beauceron, and it should be our goal to preserve it.
Breeders, exhibitors, and judges alike hold a responsibility. By ignoring the functional purpose of the Beauceron, we are not just changing its appearance we are destroying its identity. A heavy, exaggerated Beauceron may look impressive in still pictures, but out in the field, where the breed’s heart and purpose truly lie, it cannot perform as it was meant to.
We must stand against this trend, speak up, and protect the working heritage of the Beauceron. Because if we don’t, we won’t just lose correct type, we’ll lose the breed itself.
And we haven’t even touched on another issue that cuts to the core of the problem, the loss of true working drive and the injustice being done to the breed by those who deny it. More and more breeders, faced with dogs that can no longer perform as real working Beaucerons should, have started spreading the false idea that the breed “was never meant” to do certain jobs. Instead of admitting that their own lines have lost the instinct, stamina, and determination that once defined the Beauceron, they reshape the narrative to justify it. We keep hearing the same tired excuses: that the “washout rate is high,” that “your typical Beauceron isn’t capable,” or that “you need a very specific and rare Beauceron for that kind of work.” But these are not facts; they are EXCUSES born from breeding away from function. By normalizing weakness instead of confronting it, these breeders are not protecting the breed, they are lowering the bar for what a Beauceron should be. This mindset doesn’t just limit their own dogs; it drags down the entire breed’s reputation and potential.
(I’ve included two photos: one of my girl, Heros Opus A Dying Star “Supernova”, who I believe represents a correct and functional type. /She has her faults, as every dog does, but perfection was never the goal, honesty and awareness should be. What matters is seeing those faults clearly and making responsible decisions with them in mind.
 
A heavy, exaggerated Beauceron may look impressive in still pictures, but out in the field, where the breed’s heart and purpose truly lie, it cannot perform as it was meant to.
We must stand against this trend, speak up, and protect the working heritage of the Beauceron. Because if we don’t, we won’t just lose correct type, we’ll lose the breed itself.
Our trainer talks about this quite a bit since it is her breed and it is devastating when the gene pool is relatively small to start with. She's had a few bitch owners contact her about breeding them with her male but she has had to turn them down because they just aren't working quality the way a Beauceron is meant to work.
 
This dog, which will not be named and I cut out as much as I could to try to make it anonymous, as well as reducing color to black & white. It is being highly admired and even gushed over in some show dog discussions.

I suppose I could be very confused about the difference in "well defined chest" and "pigeon chest"or "overdone chest", but the chest on this Dobe to me is beyond "well defined" and seriously into "pigeon chest/overdone" definition. The back is not "slightly sloped", but extremely sloped. The back legs were set correctly, not stretched at all which can make the slope steeper. This animal was stacked correctly. All judging is opinions only, and since only a very few of us here are experts in conformation, what are your opinions of the chest and the back slope of this dog as defined by the standard? The thing about opinions is that you can't be "wrong", after all it's just an opinion, right? My opinion is this dog is overstepping the boundaries of the standard and is the preferred type in many rings. It's an example of how the breed is being more and more exaggerated and it will eventually change things just like the over done Euros but in a different way....

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Not a fan of this look at all. Looks like an athlete beefed up on steroids...

Also not a fan of this...
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This neck is not as bad as some I have seen but the underjaw, where is it? How is that weak looking mouth supposed to protect anything?
Not saying we need to go here...
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That's sloppy! I have seen worse than this where there is so much underjaw that there is HUGE gaps in the teeth. Looks like some fell out!
NOT a good look for a noble breed.
 

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