Nightmare Doberman

[MichaelCassock]

Hey their guys. Been looking for a dobe from euro working bloodlines.
Came across HOME | European Doberman | Nightmare-dobermann | United States and thought I'd ask the experts what they thought

 

[JanS]

I've never heard of them and can't find anything at all about health testing or them titling them. There are some decent lines there but the price is also higher than it should be.

 

[remy]

I would avoid them. Look into the breeder referral list from the United Doberman Club. I believe most (or all) are working line breeders.

 

[MichaelCassock]

I would avoid them. Look into the breeder referral list from the United Doberman Club. I believe most (or all) are working line breeders.

I am looking for a male dobe. That doesn't feel like it's on the smaller side of medium. I don't want the show style dobe that looks thinner. Frankly I want something along the lines of a euro dobe hypertype (that extra 8-10lbs, the thicker legs, more muscle density. ) I do not wish to have a dog full of health problems so I'm in a weird spot. I was suggested buying a doberdane but great Danes got shit hearts

 

[remy]

I am looking for a male dobe. That doesn't feel like it's on the smaller side of medium. I don't want the show style dobe that looks thinner. Frankly I want something along the lines of a euro dobe hypertype (that extra 8-10lbs, the thicker legs, more muscle density. )

Most of the breeders there are producing working dogs with European lines. Look at their sires and see if there are ones with more bone/substance that you like. Often times the hypertype dogs are overweight which of course makes them look larger. Although, yes, some of them are bigger structurally too.

I do not wish to have a dog full of health problems so I'm in a weird spot. I was suggested buying a doberdane but great Danes got shit hearts

Dobermans are prone to quiet a few health issues, including DCM (a heart issue) which is very prevalent. Look for breeders who are doing echocardiograms and holter monitors. There is also a genetic test for DCM1 and DCM2 genes, but that alone doesn’t mean much. A dog can have no genetic markers, yet still develop DCM.

 

[Ravenbird]

I am looking for a male dobe. That doesn't feel like it's on the smaller side of medium. I don't want the show style dobe that looks thinner. Frankly I want something along the lines of a euro dobe hypertype (that extra 8-10lbs, the thicker legs, more muscle density. ) I do not wish to have a dog full of health problems so I'm in a weird spot. I was suggested buying a doberdane but great Danes got shit hearts

If you think Danes got shit hearts wait til you get a hyper type Doberman. Pride of Russia is chock full of examples.

If you want a big dog go right ahead with your plan. If you want a protection dog you won't get it from this breeder. You don't want a Doberman, you want a big slob of a black and tan dog. Get a coon hound and trim the ears.




Sorry for the rant, but that's how I feel. If you want a very large protection dog you need to move to another breed. Don't support the shit breeders of Dobermans. And if you want to back up my words, call those people up and ask them for titles in protection. Ask them for proof of ANYthing they've done besides make puppies.

 

[Rits]

I am looking for a male dobe. That doesn't feel like it's on the smaller side of medium. I don't want the show style dobe that looks thinner. Frankly I want something along the lines of a euro dobe hypertype (that extra 8-10lbs, the thicker legs, more muscle density. ) I do not wish to have a dog full of health problems so I'm in a weird spot. I was suggested buying a doberdane but great Danes got shit hearts

Good luck with that. Those hypertypes burn out and break down. You want something that can do IGP but are interested in the wrong thing. Not one of those parents has any titles in what you stated you wanted to do with this dog, which was have your trainer title him in IGP to prove he's worthy of being bred. You'll end up with a heavy dog that has poor health and a body that breaks down.

The problem I'm seeing currently is that you're prioritizing looks over health and temperament.

 

[Cferg]

Hey their guys. Been looking for a dobe from euro working bloodlines.
Came across HOME | European Doberman | Nightmare-dobermann | United States and thought I'd ask the experts what they thought

These people are only an hour north of where I live. They’re just a back yard breeder, they imported some dogs and started pumping litters out.
I remember running across them when I was looking for my dog. I went on their social media at the time and videos of their dogs had corridos music as the overlay on the videos. For those that don’t know corridos is a Mexican folk music but has turned into the gangster rap of their culture. So it sounds like folk music but all the songs are about drug trafficking and murdering. My point is if you went on another breeders website and their dog promos were overlayed with American trap music, you would probably move on pretty quickly. Funny how that works

 

[Kswoodssue]

If you want to see some truly impressive working dogs, I remember a photo of @Doberman Gang and his dog in protection sport competition. That dog was pure muscle and athleticism, and I am sure is within breed standard in weight. The protection sport videos are fun to watch, and might give you a new perspective. A lot of people here have been with Dobermans for a very long time. They love the breed and are protective of them. I have learned a lot and you will too. Thanks for asking your questions!

 

[MichaelCassock]

If you want to see some truly impressive working dogs, I remember a photo of @Doberman Gang and his dog in protection sport competition. That dog was pure muscle and athleticism, and I am sure is within breed standard in weight. The protection sport videos are fun to watch, and might give you a new perspective. A lot of people here have been with Dobermans for a very long time. They love the breed and are protective of them. I have learned a lot and you will too. Thanks for asking your questions!

Thank you, literally the only person that didn't tell me shit I already knew. Appreciate the actual advice and direction

 

[Ravenbird]

Thank you, literally the only person that didn't tell me shit I already knew.

If you ask opinions on a breeder here, I was assuming that you didn't already know the answers - we are all really wanting to help you find the Doberman you want - one bred for and worked and proven in protection that would be so good that you could stand him at stud (according to your other thread). I gave you a couple of links to working Dobermans on your other thread, which I'm assuming you looked at (Benchmark and Masaya) and didn't like. If you only like Dobermans that look like the ones that Nightmare breeds, you won't find them to be great protection dogs. If you don't like standard sized Dobermans, no matter how well they work, then you won't be happy with the breed either way.

I'd just like to know your opinion - watch the video and tell me what you don't like about this dog?

Incredible work by this team

This video came off of FB, so hope the link works. Comment said "The first Doberman to ever pass PSA3 obedience, and passed 3/4 of his protection scenarios With Distinction or With Highest Distinction, missing his last scenario by just a couple points. Making breed and sport history out here...

doberman-chat.com

 

[Cferg]

Is it possible that this whole discussion could be chalked up to internet and social media distortion of reality?
For example everyone wants the heavy bone, large head, reverse masked, dark sable shepherd. But don’t want the temperment that those genetic line’s produce. They want the unicorn that they met or saw at the park 5 years ago. That represented the persons perfect image of the dog they desire. Without walking a mile in the owners shoes.

 

[Ravenbird]

Is it possible that this whole discussion could be chalked up to internet and social media distortion of reality?

pretty much, yeah.

 

[MichaelCassock]

Gorgeous dog. Didn't look to slender. That's what I have trouble with is the slender (as my trainer says) "rat dogs" (I don't agree with the wording completely but I get what he means)
Only thing notable is my trainer doesn't really use the bite Guards. He believes if you train a dog to bite a sleeve, and no sleeve is present, then what happens then.
Quick dog.

 

[Ravenbird]

For police / personal protection vs. sport dogs your train differently so they don't focus on sleeves. But the bite & drive in the puppy you get has to be there. Here's his page full of photos so you can see more of his type:

Anubis Page

Anubis is, without a doubt, one of the most exceptional working Dobermans in the country. He is currently the highest titled and accomplished Doberman in PSA history, after earning his PSA2, and...

www.benchmarkdobermann.com

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I'd just like to know your opinion - watch the video and tell me what you don't like about this dog?

You weren't directly asking me, but how tall is that Dobe? Either that is a really tall woman, or that may be a 25" male Dobe. He also has a thin, gay tail. His chest seems unusually wide, or at least his front legs were oddly far apart in one pic.

Looks matter to me too, as does size. (You know I know about breed standard) But then, in my experience, Dobes who are from proven woriking lines and excel on the field are not physically impressive or beautiful.

 

[Ravenbird]

You weren't directly asking me, but how tall is that Dobe? Either that is a really tall woman, or that may be a 25" male Dobe. He also has a thin, gay tail. His chest seems unusually wide, or at least his front legs were oddly far apart in one pic.

Looks matter to me too, as does size. (You know I know about breed standard) But then, in my experience, Dobes who are from proven woriking lines and excel on the field are not physically impressive or beautiful.

I'm open to all conversations/comments, even if I'm addressing someone else! What forums are all about!

I have no idea how tall that dog is. I'd be willing to bet he's within standard for a male. The whole point I'm making is that he has outperformed any other Doberman in PSA and outperformed other breeds at this. If this is the kind of work you want your dog to do, you must look for puppies from dogs who perform like this. Not just look like this, but work like this. If breeders are striving to produce a top working dog, they have to weigh looks with performance and match their pairings accordingly. Not to mention passing health tests as well. I've never seen any bite-sport Dobermans on the field that were hyper type. Not one. It's hard enough to keep Dobermans in the sports at all because so few are breeding seriously for it.

And there are/were a handful who were AKC GCH why could also work (Ashas grandsire), but they are few and far between.

GCH Chaos Vom Coby Haus SCHH III, IPO3, FH2, AD, ZTP 1A, WAC, ROM, VCX, CG

 

[Cferg]

I'm open to all conversations/comments, even if I'm addressing someone else! What forums are all about!

I have no idea how tall that dog is. I'd be willing to bet he's within standard for a male. The whole point I'm making is that he has outperformed any other Doberman in PSA and outperformed other breeds at this. If this is the kind of work you want your dog to do, you must look for puppies from dogs who perform like this. Not just look like this, but work like this. If breeders are striving to produce a top working dog, they have to weigh looks with performance and match their pairings accordingly. Not to mention passing health tests as well. I've never seen any bite-sport Dobermans on the field that were hyper type. Not one. It's hard enough to keep Dobermans in the sports at all because so few are breeding seriously for it.

And there are/were a handful who were AKC GCH why could also work (Ashas grandsire), but they are few and far between.

GCH Chaos Vom Coby Haus SCHH III, IPO3, FH2, AD, ZTP 1A, WAC, ROM, VCX, CG

View attachment 139019

Most working line breeders I follow periodically breed in a show line dog. Or stud out one of their males to a showline breeder. So I think conformation is on their mind not with every litter but enough to show me they are aware of the importance of looks and conformation.

 

[Ravenbird]

Most working line breeders I follow periodically breed in a show line dog. Or stud out one of their males to a showline breeder. So I think conformation is on their mind not with every litter but enough to show me they are aware of the importance of looks and conformation.

Exactly what I was trying to say. The good breeders "weigh the looks with performance" - if/when it gets too out of balance they need to adjust somehow. And I feel very strongly about keeping a Doberman attitude in the show lines by laying more importance on the WAE to prove that your show dog has at least a little suspicion and defensive instincts.

It's what United Doberman Club is striving to keep: The Total Doberman. Their trials do include conformation, temperament testing as well as IGP.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I'm open to all conversations/comments, even if I'm addressing someone else! What forums are all about!

I have no idea how tall that dog is. I'd be willing to bet he's within standard for a male. The whole point I'm making is that he has outperformed any other Doberman in PSA and outperformed other breeds at this. If this is the kind of work you want your dog to do, you must look for puppies from dogs who perform like this. Not just look like this, but work like this. If breeders are striving to produce a top working dog, they have to weigh looks with performance and match their pairings accordingly. Not to mention passing health tests as well. I've never seen any bite-sport Dobermans on the field that were hyper type. Not one. It's hard enough to keep Dobermans in the sports at all because so few are breeding seriously for it.

And there are/were a handful who were AKC GCH why could also work (Ashas grandsire), but they are few and far between.

GCH Chaos Vom Coby Haus SCHH III, IPO3, FH2, AD, ZTP 1A, WAC, ROM, VCX, CG

View attachment 139019

Yes, good points. I totally agree that no hypertypes can really excel on the sport/work field. I am reminded of a little video Brandi of Masaya put out several years ago. The caption was "And now for a bunch of "Russian show dogs" and it proceeded to show some nice impressive (to me) looking Dobes that were fairly slow and not very driven looking and that didn't bite well. Contrast this with the kind of dogs my last two Dobe breeders breed (and from what I've seen, Masaya as well) and the difference in physical appearance is stark. But boy are they fast, quick and high flying, and with nice bites/grips.

So really, when it comes to personal protection (which is what I'm interested in) I say over and over that deterrence is 99% of protection, and appearance is 99% of deterrence. Put my late Oji up against a nicely boned show Dobe who carries itself alertly and proudly, and I think instinctively most people would be more afraid of the show dog. If that show Dobe is actually possessed of good courage and defensiveness and would stand its ground and not break in the face of an aggressive human, you've got yourself a good protection dog there. I don't really need my Dobe to have tremendous agility and speed as though they would be expected to chase down and apprehend a bad guy. You're not supposed to have your dog chase down a bad guy in most cases, legally speaking.

Full-mouth bites, which most non-working Dobes are not capable of? Well, in theory, grabbing the arm with the full mouth, and holding on is the best defense (and in my opinion, proceeding to pull the man around in a circular motion, causing them to lose balance); but I also think the slashing and typewriter biting most Dobes naturally do can go a long way against a bad guy. Maybe not against a bad guy that is big, strong and wielding a weapon.

That said, I have found working-line Dobermans to be structurally very sound and durable. That counts for a ton.

Good discussion, though I'll have to scroll to the top to recall what this thread was originally about