Show vs working

[Ravenbird]

I came across this on FB the other day and related right away to why I always want to challenge the GCH show look to their working counterpoints in the same breed. Dogs that are bred for generations to a certain look morph into different looking animals. If they are not tested on the field for nerve, trainability and physical health nobody knows if the morphing of body style is helping or hurting.

When I see Dobermans with CH and look at their pedigree and for FOUR generations not a single dog with any type of working title, not even an AKC obedience or a Fast Cat, I'm petrified that that many breeders for that many generations have not gone out of their way to "prove" that they are preserving the Doberman as the working athlete that it was meant to be. I honestly don't give a rats behind what happens to lap dogs, they were never built around being a breed that has to be physically and mentally proven. But looking at these two German shepherds as what was and what they show lines did to them is a disgrace. Yes, the lines split off and there are still some awesome working GSDs, and frankly they are still tops in the IGP world. But the show lines? Where is the pride in that?

As for the Doberman breed, I'm pleased to see some show lines proving their workability and some breeders crossing some show lines to working lines. And more than ever, pleased that the handful of working line breeders are hanging in there by a thread to preserve what's left in the Doberman of the past.

GSD police dog in 1915:




GCH GSD 100 years later, no working titles obviously.

 

[JanS]

GCH GSD 100 years later, no working titles obviously.

This one still chills me to the bone since it's such a horrible example of the breed. If people think this is what it takes to get that CH or GCH title, I want no part of it.

 

[Ddski5]

I came across this on FB the other day and related right away to why I always want to challenge the GCH show look to their working counterpoints in the same breed. Dogs that are bred for generations to a certain look morph into different looking animals. If they are not tested on the field for nerve, trainability and physical health nobody knows if the morphing of body style is helping or hurting.

When I see Dobermans with CH and look at their pedigree and for FOUR generations not a single dog with any type of working title, not even an AKC obedience or a Fast Cat, I'm petrified that that many breeders for that many generations have not gone out of their way to "prove" that they are preserving the Doberman as the working athlete that it was meant to be. I honestly don't give a rats behind what happens to lap dogs, they were never built around being a breed that has to be physically and mentally proven. But looking at these two German shepherds as what was and what they show lines did to them is a disgrace. Yes, the lines split off and there are still some awesome working GSDs, and frankly they are still tops in the IGP world. But the show lines? Where is the pride in that?

As for the Doberman breed, I'm pleased to see some show lines proving their workability and some breeders crossing some show lines to working lines. And more than ever, pleased that the handful of working line breeders are hanging in there by a thread to preserve what's left in the Doberman of the past.

GSD police dog in 1915:

View attachment 155436View attachment 155437


GCH GSD 100 years later, no working titles obviously.

View attachment 155438

Yes…I don’t see how or why breeders and judges steer towards the slope backs. Looks like a handicapped underdeveloped spinal cord at birth to me.

 

[Ddski5]

I sure wish Doberman breeders would stop breeding so hard core to a certain standard/look and start breeding out DCM.
Correct me if I am wrong but in order to do that, they must introduce breeding to another breed, eradicate DCM through that and then come back into the standard. But the problem here is that you may be out of the standard for a bit and “show pony’s” have to win that ribbon. Too many Dobermans are dying from DCM.

 

[Ravenbird]

This one still chills me to the bone since it's such a horrible example of the breed.

What chills me to the bone is that it comes so gradually nobody notices until you see photos 20, 40 and 75 years later. We look at old photos of Dobermans and think how much improvement we've made. Yes, they now look like movie stars compared to Plain Janes, but underneath that beauty is a genetic mess. Not just in regards to working but health and longevity.

I don’t see how or why breeders and judges steer towards the slope backs. Looks like a handicapped underdeveloped spinal cord at birth to me.

Again, it just happened slowly but especially from not testing the show dogs in physical working venues. Breeders like a slope back, judges reward them for it, then they breed "tightly" for it so it gets locked into their dogs, then it snowballs until it's so exaggerated it's crippling. GSDs are known for hip dysplasia. Same with flat snouts in other breeds or short legs/long backs in Corgies or Dachshunds etc. If these dogs were tested in their respective original uses and found to be faltering due to physical problems the breeders could correct it before it got out of hand. And the invisible things: health and temperament are ignored or dismissed in the show ring, stuffed under the table and not mentioned.

I sure wish Doberman breeders would stop breeding so hard core to a certain standard/look and start breeding out DCM.

Same here. I was blessed with a beautiful dog and took an interest in the show world, but the more I found out the less impressed I was. It's admirable to breed to the standard, to strive to improve what you can, but as I watched, I don't see the majority striving to improve the most broken thing: Health. The majority keeps breeding tightly to the winning dogs to assure that they don't lose the look that wins rather than diversify to a lesser dog. There are SO many good dogs out there, which brings me to...

Correct me if I am wrong but in order to do that, they must introduce breeding to another breed, eradicate DCM through that and then come back into the standard. But the problem here is that you may be out of the standard for a bit and “show pony’s” have to win that ribbon. Too many Dobermans are dying from DCM.

Ideally and the quickest way to lower the COI and the unknown genes causing DCM would be to out cross, then breed those back in to standards. We know this isn't going to happen any time soon with the DPCA or AKC and would take a lot of breeders on the same page many years of dedication.
Second best, and fairly easy if you could give up your ego:
Simply looking beyond the show ring - and for the working lines, looking beyond the working dog lines - and looking hard at crossing lines that don't repeat in at least 4 or 5 generations and looking at genetic COI and longevity and CODs. I see on breeders info the genetic colors, so people know if they carry Black only, Reds or dilutes - how about they also declare the COI of the parents as well? THAT's the biggest health test of all. The higher the COI the more chances of genes doubling up or snowballing - like the GSDs photos 100 years apart in their physical looks, the same thing is happening invisibly to genes carrying wonky thyroids, whining, heart and liver malfunctions, pica, etc. Some can be tested for, but like DCM tests are not conclusive at all, especially for breeding age.

 

[GennyB]

What chills me to the bone is that it comes so gradually nobody notices until you see photos 20, 40 and 75 years later.

There still some GSD breeders that breed for the "normal" looking dogs. Makes me wonder why ANYONE would choose that broken looking one. It hurts me to watch one walk, can't imagine what the dog feels like.

 

[Ravenbird]

There still some GSD breeders that breed for the "normal" looking dogs.

Yup, same with all the breeds! They just don't make breed nationals or Westminster.

 

[BG1]

I've been idly thinking about the next dog, as a family guardian and companion, including how well it would fit in with BYB Bonnie our current dobe. We've tended in past towards two dogs at a time with staggered ages, more by accident than by plan (we are suckers for rescues) but as we close in on the golden years practicality on how much can you do, to keep a large active breed trained and stimulated is a concern. Not to mention higher cost in some breeds.

I have to say I am not impressed with the AKC and showdog breeders in the US. I guess thats a function of being ignorant before and learning more, but there is a lot of "ethical breeder", "preservation breeder" marketing being tossed around to describe the same approach that got us to this point.

Thats all I'm gonna say as its such a loaded topic its really not worth the back and forth with all the drama.

I am looking at other breeds with longer life spans and lower COI. Thats not a diss on dobes, either. It will be climate dependent as to best fit, as one variable, and also best fit to location.

 

[Ravenbird]

I've been idly thinking about the next dog, as a family guardian and companion, including how well it would fit in with BYB Bonnie our current dobe. We've tended in past towards two dogs at a time with staggered ages, more by accident than by plan (we are suckers for rescues) but as we close in on the golden years practicality on how much can you do, to keep a large active breed trained and stimulated is a concern. Not to mention higher cost in some breeds.

I totally understand. I closer to 70 than 65 and I question if I could keep up with another high energy dog. My first two Dobermans were nothing like Asha. If you are active yourself, it wouldn't be much effort. If you are leaning toward a quiet retirement of leisure rather than activity, working lines would not be for you. I'm glad you're thinking things out, because so many people don't understand the effort it takes - and that includes any high drive breeds, not just protection type breeds.

At our recent Nose Work Trial there was a lady there with 4 German Pinschers. They look and act just like a Doberman but are a smaller dog, about 40 lbs looked like. She's been breeding them for about 20 years, they are not common to see and are in the same price range as Dobermans. BUT again, she said they are extremely energetic and need outlets - exercise or training venues to keep them busy. Their breed comes from Miniature Pinschers crossed with Terriers, so more terrier-like in personality. They were crated close to us for the weekend and I never heard them bark. I did talk to her about them and she said she gets a LOT of Doberman people looking for a puppy due to not being able to face another short-lived Dobe. I should have taken pictures when they were out of their crates, but didn't think of it. When they were packing to leave the cover was off two of the crates and I snapped this:

I think the difference would be minimal though, so probably not a good choice if you want less energy. The gal was very intelligent sounding, did heath testing and screening and did admit that this is a breed with a small gene pool, but health issue were not nearly as prevalent as Dobermans.

I've thought the way to go is to be approved as a foster for a Doberman rescue so you could take in a dog and if it turns out to be the perfect dog then it's a Foster-fail, and if that Dobe is not in line with your lifestyle then you just foster until the right home comes along like most fosters do. No lifetime commitment. You'd learn a hell of a lot if you went through several dogs, plus the good you'd be doing for the breed.

 

[strykerdobe]

We bred our show line female Zara, she was from Romania with an awesome working line multiple IGP3 male.
And we kept Arson from our litter. He is high drive. We finally got our IGP3 at club level in 2023.

Sad to say I really don't think DCM will be bred out of the Dobermann. Not in our time. We hope this breed lives on forever. There is
no other breed for us.
We also volunteer for a Dobe Rescue. And some of the rescues have lived long life's.

Look for longevity and health test.
We waited until Zara was almost 4yrs old to breed her. Wanted to make sure she was healthy.

We everyday Zara and Arson stay healthy.

 

[JanS]

At our recent Nose Work Trial there was a lady there with 4 German Pinschers. They look and act just like a Doberman but are a smaller dog, about 40 lbs looked like.

There were 3 of them at our July show too and they really are nice smaller dogs. I've been friends with one of the owners for quite a while so I got to watch her younger one grow up. He has his "handful" moments but they aren't as big and strong as a Doberman so like you said, very similar to a Doberman but smaller.

 

[BG1]

I totally understand. I closer to 70 than 65 and I question if I could keep up with another high energy dog. My first two Dobermans were nothing like Asha. If you are active yourself, it wouldn't be much effort. If you are leaning toward a quiet retirement of leisure rather than activity, working lines would not be for you. I'm glad you're thinking things out, because so many people don't understand the effort it takes - and that includes any high drive breeds, not just protection type breeds.

At our recent Nose Work Trial there was a lady there with 4 German Pinschers. They look and act just like a Doberman but are a smaller dog, about 40 lbs looked like. She's been breeding them for about 20 years, they are not common to see and are in the same price range as Dobermans. BUT again, she said they are extremely energetic and need outlets - exercise or training venues to keep them busy. Their breed comes from Miniature Pinschers crossed with Terriers, so more terrier-like in personality. They were crated close to us for the weekend and I never heard them bark. I did talk to her about them and she said she gets a LOT of Doberman people looking for a puppy due to not being able to face another short-lived Dobe. I should have taken pictures when they were out of their crates, but didn't think of it. When they were packing to leave the cover was off two of the crates and I snapped this:View attachment 155597

I think the difference would be minimal though, so probably not a good choice if you want less energy. The gal was very intelligent sounding, did heath testing and screening and did admit that this is a breed with a small gene pool, but health issue were not nearly as prevalent as Dobermans.

I've thought the way to go is to be approved as a foster for a Doberman rescue so you could take in a dog and if it turns out to be the perfect dog then it's a Foster-fail, and if that Dobe is not in line with your lifestyle then you just foster until the right home comes along like most fosters do. No lifetime commitment. You'd learn a hell of a lot if you went through several dogs, plus the good you'd be doing for the breed.

Ya, I'm a sucker for rescue dogs.
Volunteering would do some good, and we temporarily fostered a GSD/Chow mix...once.

 

[BG1]

There were 3 of them at our July show too and they really are nice smaller dogs. I've been friends with one of the owners for quite a while so I got to watch her younger one grow up. He has his "handful" moments but they aren't as big and strong as a Doberman so like you said, very similar to a Doberman but smaller.

Those are good looking dogs!

 

[Ravenbird]

He has his "handful" moments but they aren't as big and strong as a Doberman so like you said, very similar to a Doberman but smaller.

Maybe couldn't knock you over on a recall or drag you down at a fast cat anyway.