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Interesting notes on DCM

Ravenbird

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Saw this on FB. I've seen recently not to feed sweet potatoes, but now appears to be the whole root vegetable category. I don't feed these anyway except carrots are in the Fresh Pet that feed a small amount of. I'll have to look at my kibble, as I think it may contain beet pulp, which has become another popular addition to dog food. 🙄 and while I'm at it I'll check on the other veggies listed.

I've argued that if a dog has inherited DCM, diet won't prevent it, but still, no reason to add insult to injury by feeding food that makes them more prone to it.

Posted on FB by
Doberman Pinscher Club of Sacramento

As Doberman owners, we know dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM) is one of the most serious health challenges in our breed. DCM is a disease where the heart becomes enlarged and weakened, reducing its ability to pump effectively. While many cases in Dobermans are genetic, we’re also seeing cases that are not, which has led researchers to take a closer look at diet.

The UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine first raised concerns about certain diets, particularly those high in pulses (i.e., peas, lentils, chickpeas, and other legumes) commonly found in grain-free foods. These ingredients may interfere with taurine, an amino acid critical to heart health. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration and the Tufts University Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine continue to study diet-associated DCM, and it remains an open and evolving issue.

More recently, we’ve been hearing from veterinary cardiologists about another area of concern: root vegetables. These are foods where the edible portion grows underground, including sweet potatoes, yams, carrots, and beets. A Northern California cardiologist we know and trust has suggested her clients (all breeds) remove root vegetables from their diets. Clients without a genetic predisposition for DCM who showed sudden or early signs of the disease have significantly improved and even showed a normal echocardiogram after these ingredients were removed from the diet. At this point, we don’t know why this may be happening, and research is still limited — but it’s something we feel is worth sharing.

One of our club members recently experienced something similar:

“Our 4-year-old dog had always had normal Holter and echo results. Then last fall, one Holter showed a significant increase in PVCs and the echo had declined. A few months later we did another Holter check and the PVCs dropped almost back to normal. Recently we heard about the vet having success eliminating root vegetables. Looking back, we realized that for a few months prior to the bad Holter and echo, we had been adding carrots and sweet potatoes to the diet for temporary weight loss. When we did the second Holter recheck, she had been off the carrots and sweet potatoes for about 3 months. It was a real lightbulb moment for us.”
 
Interesting info--thanks for sharing. I do know that taurine is more plentiful in meats, and my understanding is that raw meats are better in that regard. I've noticed that some kibble companies are starting to add taurine in to dog diets now.
 
I think it may contain beet pulp, which has become another popular addition to dog food. 🙄 and while I'm at it I'll check on the other veggies listed.
Beet pulp is one of those ingredients I've always avoided and one of the foods we used to feed (Merrick) changed their recipe to use a lot of potatoes and I could see it in our dogs coats almost right away so I went away from that too.
Olive absolutely loves raw carrots and would dig them up from our garden before we put a triple fence around it. LOL
 
I am not sure what to think about all the info that comes out on the subject....I do believe that Purina is a big supporter of UC Davis research.....
holistic vets encourage carrots & sweet potatoes ....
I used to feed grain free, and switched years ago; but my food now has sweet potatoes! I always felt it was more of a genetic thing as well, but @Ravenbird has a point; why add insult to injury by including these foods.
I just don't know what to think.
 
I walked over to Petco today so we could do some training, looked at some of the foods there in case we run out (we are out of town on medical issues and may need to stay longer than we'd anticipated). Even the better quality stuff they have there (Stella and Chewy's) has sweet potato or carrots or both. I think the raw patties I feed have carrots in them. It's going to be tough to find foods without root veg in them.
 
If I had deeper pockets, I'd definitely go to a balanced raw diet. I don't think a few vegetables hurt anything, but when they are used as fillers and mostly starchy carbohydrates they aren't adding nutrients, they're making the kibble more profitable. And when used as fillers in kibble they are an unknown percentage of your dogs diet.
 
Yall gonna get me on my dog diet Ted Talk!!! LOL

I saw this earlier and personally, I take every study with a grain of salt. Every few years it's a new thing. First it was grains, then grain-free, then peas, then lentils, then potatoes, and now all roots. A lot of this "research" is done by big corpo kibble brands and tends to use fearmongering to drive sales.

I've worked in holistic pet food for over a decade and more often than not, these surprise studies turn out to be not so useful in the long run.

Different dogs need different diets. It depends on breed, activity level, lifestyle, genetic predispositions, etc.

I've spoken at length with dog nutritionists and veterinarians about how I feed my dogs, because lucky for me, I work in the industry and thus cost is not a factor; I can afford to feed the most expensive brands on the market purely because of my career, and that as opened the door to a LOT of conversation. You always get some vets who will glare at you for not feeding purely kibble diets, or mad about grainfree, etc. etc. But in general, when you talk to actual nutritionists, especially those who have spent their lives studying the evolutionary elements of canine diets, they will tell you that dogs are absolutely not obligate carnivores and in fact DO need vegetables in their diets. Even grains, too!

The big thing to remember is that obviously dogs don't eat raw vegetables in large quantities. What does a predator eat when it catches prey FIRST? The guts. They eat out the organs and the stomach. What's in the stomach? Partially digested plant matter. Dogs digestive systems are not designed to process raw vegetables, but we've all seen how they love to eat grass and pumpkin can soothe upset tummies, etc. Fresh/raw veggies are totally fine in moderation, but is not a substitute for partially digested veggies. In eating the stomach and organs, they also ingest lots of bacteria from the gut flora as well.

As time goes on, we learn more and more about how important our gut biomes are. It can affect everything about our moods, hormones, anxiety, energy, mental clarity, skin, stomach, digestion, etc. A big issue with modern dog diets is how sterile they are.

Feeding raw is a big help though! Raw veggies, raw meats, healthy pre/probiotics, balanced vitamin packs and supplements, etc all are part of a healthy gut and healthy heart. (though keep an eye on supplements because a lot of kibbles add a vitamin pack back in at the end of manufacturing, and you can make your dog sick on over-supplementing vitamins and such).

All that is to say, diet is COMPLICATED. Are the above studies factoring in how processed the root is? Pesticides or chemical exposure? How were the starches broken down prior to baking? At what temperature was it cooked or sterilized? What is the activity level of the dog? How many other carbohydrates are present in the diet? How many sugars? The honest answer is, consult a canine nutritionist if you really want a diet tailor made to your dog.

But not everyone has access to that.

Here's my take on diet, based on 12+ years in the dog food industry and owning a dog that has live 5 years past his life expectancy from severe heart problems.

1. High quality kibble. I like ancient grains, especially for doberman. Ancient grains are grains from grasses rather than hyper GMO low quality wheat or corn. Grass grains are much closer to ancestral diets of canines and the way the carbohydrates break down is slower and less sugar heavy. I recommend Open Farm's ancient grain diets. The salmon is nice for doberman.
2. Alternative kibble options: Primals Kibble In the Raw, Carna4, Ziwi, etc. These are awesome (but expensive) kibble alternatives. I blend it with my kibble to make my buck last longer.
3. Fresh veggie topper, small doses: Green Juju's veggie blends are great, especially if you have a dog that seems to munch on grass alot.
4. Gently Cooked frozen: fresh food has so much benefit over kibble, but its expensive. If you can mix some into your dry food, it makes it palatable and stretches the buck further. Frozen means you won't waste it either. Open Farm, My Perfect Pet, A Pup Above, Bonnihill Farms, SmallBatch, Stella & Chewy's are all great options.
5. Raw - this is the hardest one to do right. Transitioning is slow because there is a bacteria load most dogs arent ready for. I recommend small doses of raw, especially if it's organ meat in conjunction with a raw diet probiotic. Tucker's Boost Cubes and OC Raw raw organs are great options and you only need to use a little so it lasts a long time.
6. Other supplement options: Carna4 Flora4 greens, bone broths, and oils. All great additions.

Now I know this sounds nuts, but truly, a lot of these will last you MONTHS if you mix them together and don't overdo it. High nutrition diets can be smaller volumes of food.

I personally have been avoiding lentils and potatoes due to their starch content, but small amounts of sweet potato is a nice supplement. According to my vet, doberman do well with a slightly higher carbohydrate diet than some dogs, and if you have a very active dog, carbs are good. Hence the base of my diet has ancient grains and I supplement from there.

My dog has survived 5 surgeries, 2 of them being heart surgeries, both of which failed to fix his problem. He was given months to live. He's turning 6 next week defying the odds of every surgeon and cardiologist I've been to. When they hear what I feed, their eyes widen and they go "That's probably why he's still alive."

So, anyway. Big nerd here LOL if you ever wanna talk food brands, I can go on and on. Main thing is, do the best you can do on a reasonable budget for YOU. Your doggo will love you no matter what and doing your best is all that matters. <3
 
I take every study with a grain of salt. Every few years it's a new thing. First it was grains, then grain-free, then peas, then lentils, then potatoes, and now all roots. A lot of this "research" is done by big corpo kibble brands and tends to use fearmongering to drive sales.
I totally agree with this so I generally don't jump on any of those bandwagons. The avoidance of root crops does make sense though since it's not a natural diet for wild canines either.
 
Yall gonna get me on my dog diet Ted Talk!!! LOL

I saw this earlier and personally, I take every study with a grain of salt. Every few years it's a new thing. First it was grains, then grain-free, then peas, then lentils, then potatoes, and now all roots. A lot of this "research" is done by big corpo kibble brands and tends to use fearmongering to drive sales.

I've worked in holistic pet food for over a decade and more often than not, these surprise studies turn out to be not so useful in the long run.

Different dogs need different diets. It depends on breed, activity level, lifestyle, genetic predispositions, etc.

I've spoken at length with dog nutritionists and veterinarians about how I feed my dogs, because lucky for me, I work in the industry and thus cost is not a factor; I can afford to feed the most expensive brands on the market purely because of my career, and that as opened the door to a LOT of conversation. You always get some vets who will glare at you for not feeding purely kibble diets, or mad about grainfree, etc. etc. But in general, when you talk to actual nutritionists, especially those who have spent their lives studying the evolutionary elements of canine diets, they will tell you that dogs are absolutely not obligate carnivores and in fact DO need vegetables in their diets. Even grains, too!

The big thing to remember is that obviously dogs don't eat raw vegetables in large quantities. What does a predator eat when it catches prey FIRST? The guts. They eat out the organs and the stomach. What's in the stomach? Partially digested plant matter. Dogs digestive systems are not designed to process raw vegetables, but we've all seen how they love to eat grass and pumpkin can soothe upset tummies, etc. Fresh/raw veggies are totally fine in moderation, but is not a substitute for partially digested veggies. In eating the stomach and organs, they also ingest lots of bacteria from the gut flora as well.

As time goes on, we learn more and more about how important our gut biomes are. It can affect everything about our moods, hormones, anxiety, energy, mental clarity, skin, stomach, digestion, etc. A big issue with modern dog diets is how sterile they are.

Feeding raw is a big help though! Raw veggies, raw meats, healthy pre/probiotics, balanced vitamin packs and supplements, etc all are part of a healthy gut and healthy heart. (though keep an eye on supplements because a lot of kibbles add a vitamin pack back in at the end of manufacturing, and you can make your dog sick on over-supplementing vitamins and such).

All that is to say, diet is COMPLICATED. Are the above studies factoring in how processed the root is? Pesticides or chemical exposure? How were the starches broken down prior to baking? At what temperature was it cooked or sterilized? What is the activity level of the dog? How many other carbohydrates are present in the diet? How many sugars? The honest answer is, consult a canine nutritionist if you really want a diet tailor made to your dog.

But not everyone has access to that.

Here's my take on diet, based on 12+ years in the dog food industry and owning a dog that has live 5 years past his life expectancy from severe heart problems.

1. High quality kibble. I like ancient grains, especially for doberman. Ancient grains are grains from grasses rather than hyper GMO low quality wheat or corn. Grass grains are much closer to ancestral diets of canines and the way the carbohydrates break down is slower and less sugar heavy. I recommend Open Farm's ancient grain diets. The salmon is nice for doberman.
2. Alternative kibble options: Primals Kibble In the Raw, Carna4, Ziwi, etc. These are awesome (but expensive) kibble alternatives. I blend it with my kibble to make my buck last longer.
3. Fresh veggie topper, small doses: Green Juju's veggie blends are great, especially if you have a dog that seems to munch on grass alot.
4. Gently Cooked frozen: fresh food has so much benefit over kibble, but its expensive. If you can mix some into your dry food, it makes it palatable and stretches the buck further. Frozen means you won't waste it either. Open Farm, My Perfect Pet, A Pup Above, Bonnihill Farms, SmallBatch, Stella & Chewy's are all great options.
5. Raw - this is the hardest one to do right. Transitioning is slow because there is a bacteria load most dogs arent ready for. I recommend small doses of raw, especially if it's organ meat in conjunction with a raw diet probiotic. Tucker's Boost Cubes and OC Raw raw organs are great options and you only need to use a little so it lasts a long time.
6. Other supplement options: Carna4 Flora4 greens, bone broths, and oils. All great additions.

Now I know this sounds nuts, but truly, a lot of these will last you MONTHS if you mix them together and don't overdo it. High nutrition diets can be smaller volumes of food.

I personally have been avoiding lentils and potatoes due to their starch content, but small amounts of sweet potato is a nice supplement. According to my vet, doberman do well with a slightly higher carbohydrate diet than some dogs, and if you have a very active dog, carbs are good. Hence the base of my diet has ancient grains and I supplement from there.

My dog has survived 5 surgeries, 2 of them being heart surgeries, both of which failed to fix his problem. He was given months to live. He's turning 6 next week defying the odds of every surgeon and cardiologist I've been to. When they hear what I feed, their eyes widen and they go "That's probably why he's still alive."

So, anyway. Big nerd here LOL if you ever wanna talk food brands, I can go on and on. Main thing is, do the best you can do on a reasonable budget for YOU. Your doggo will love you no matter what and doing your best is all that matters. <3
This is really useful @Liminalist .
I'm scanning your past comments, and will ask more ? later but

seriously, would love to read or watch your "TED talk" given you long insider info, and your research and applied diet results speak for themselves.

With AI able to scan public forums and websites, this kind of experiential learning is highly useful, and valuable when paired to science studies, imho.

Here is my small offering:

We've been feeding Inukshik since puppy at 4months based on food recommendd by a 40 years in LEO training facility that feeds all their GSDs Mals and other working lines same. We started on 24/16 as the dobe puppy guideline is no more than 24% protein until long bones are growing in, to prevent knuckling.

I tend to go with "if it aint broke dont fix it" and have looked into raw, but its difficult to find and expensive here in our part of socal. I'm intrigued by the gut biome research both dogs and people, so reading more.

I did a lot of research into copper (you can find my links etc at the other doberman forum, following the approach;

That a vet who presented at DPCA in 2024 on "create your DCM heart plan" approach, so I did same in "copper health plan" step by step on what I learned, links to youtube etc.

If there is interest I'll recreate a few of those here.

Bonnie has genetic markers for DCM2 (tntt) and the most penetrant gene for copper storage APBT7 per Embark,
so a year ago I changed diet including eliminating treats with any beef liver content, and emailing Inukshik to confirm lowest copper content. She is now on Marine30 at lower volume (1 cup morning and nite) and
tolerating it very well, with only other input a frozen raw marrow bone 2" sliced from butcher at 200 cal in fat.

Occasionally I'll pour a bit of hamburger juice or sardine juice, with a tablespoon or two as a topping in morning kibble, but keeping that minimal as she can stand to lose 5lb...working on exercise more- 3miles a day for me is 5 miles for her if we can find off leash trail or beach time...

She also gets an 24" dry esophagus- all collagen at night to chew on lasts 2-3 days.

Maybe a tablespoon of large curd cottage cheerse in evening kibble if stool is loose.

We get a lot of compliments on her shiny coat and I put that down to the high fish content.

She just passed age 3 and she is good to go on echo, holter, and liver ALT test, so we are doing what we can on diet, while monitoring health related to genetic markers that are "correlation but not causation".

I've PMd you if you want to go offline to share more, but please feel free to share more in public, for the benefit of all.

Thanks again, and @JanS too.
Tremendous resource here at DCF.
 
Last edited:
Yall gonna get me on my dog diet Ted Talk!!! LOL
I agree with all of your points. I definitely am not one to jump on bandwagons and I won't drop what I've been feeding for years because of a few carrots. I've seen the sweet potato treats in stores and thought why in the world would that be a good treat for a dog? And when I add canned green beans to my meat topper, I mash them to a pulp to make them "pre-digested" as you say. Only of course they don't have all the other good things that come with rabbit guts... :rofl: But it is true that not many coyotes will dig up potatoes or carrots and feast on them. And those peanut butter and banana treats? My dog has extremely high food drive but will not eat a peanut, or lick peanut butter and will physically turn her head away from a piece of banana.
 
And those peanut butter and banana treats? My dog has extremely high food drive but will not eat a peanut, or lick peanut butter and will physically turn her head away from a piece of banana.
Our dogs don't care for peanut butter either but boy if they don't their piece of banana in the morning it ruins their whole day. LOL
 
Saw this on FB. I've seen recently not to feed sweet potatoes, but now appears to be the whole root vegetable category. I don't feed these anyway except carrots are in the Fresh Pet that feed a small amount of. I'll have to look at my kibble, as I think it may contain beet pulp, which has become another popular addition to dog food. 🙄 and while I'm at it I'll check on the other veggies listed.

I've argued that if a dog has inherited DCM, diet won't prevent it, but still, no reason to add insult to injury by feeding food that makes them more prone to it.

Posted on FB by
Doberman Pinscher Club of Sacramento

As Doberman owners, we know dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM) is one of the most serious health challenges in our breed. DCM is a disease where the heart becomes enlarged and weakened, reducing its ability to pump effectively. While many cases in Dobermans are genetic, we’re also seeing cases that are not, which has led researchers to take a closer look at diet.

The UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine first raised concerns about certain diets, particularly those high in pulses (i.e., peas, lentils, chickpeas, and other legumes) commonly found in grain-free foods. These ingredients may interfere with taurine, an amino acid critical to heart health. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration and the Tufts University Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine continue to study diet-associated DCM, and it remains an open and evolving issue.

More recently, we’ve been hearing from veterinary cardiologists about another area of concern: root vegetables. These are foods where the edible portion grows underground, including sweet potatoes, yams, carrots, and beets. A Northern California cardiologist we know and trust has suggested her clients (all breeds) remove root vegetables from their diets. Clients without a genetic predisposition for DCM who showed sudden or early signs of the disease have significantly improved and even showed a normal echocardiogram after these ingredients were removed from the diet. At this point, we don’t know why this may be happening, and research is still limited — but it’s something we feel is worth sharing.

One of our club members recently experienced something similar:

“Our 4-year-old dog had always had normal Holter and echo results. Then last fall, one Holter showed a significant increase in PVCs and the echo had declined. A few months later we did another Holter check and the PVCs dropped almost back to normal. Recently we heard about the vet having success eliminating root vegetables. Looking back, we realized that for a few months prior to the bad Holter and echo, we had been adding carrots and sweet potatoes to the diet for temporary weight loss. When we did the second Holter recheck, she had been off the carrots and sweet potatoes for about 3 months. It was a real lightbulb moment for us.”

I did post something on this on my wife's FB.
 
I give these two a raw carrot when I am cooking once in awhile. Also when I cut up vegetables for our dinner, they get brocolli stems, (from the crown, not big stem)
And I chop up fresh green beans real small and add to food. When Falcon was teething, I would rinse a carrot in water, then freeze, and let him naw on that. And ours can hear you crack a banana peel from a sound sleep in the other room! They love their morning nana....I have never had gut problems with any of them, and I have lost dobes to DCM...but I still think it was genetic at the time. Again; I just don't know what to think about it all....the 'science' continues to change.
 

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