If I was a breeder...looking for working lines

[BGpa]

Before, the only meaning of AI was artificial insemination but sadly they had to introduce "artificial intelligence" into everyday conversation in the last few years.

I'm waiting for someone to use AI to fuse all the variois doberman pedigree databases into one, easily used by the lay public.

Then incentivize accurate reporting on COD, etc.

That could actually help the public help the breed by informed customer choice.

And reward the breeders doing the best work on the magic that goes beyond "wire diagrams" and dna markers.

 

[Ravenbird]

Before, the only meaning of AI was artificial insemination but sadly they had to introduce "artificial intelligence" into everyday conversation in the last few years.

When AI started being seen in conversations everywhere, it took me a while to adjust my brain from instantly reading "artificial insemination". Like, a LONG while. My brain just instantly translated it to making foals or puppies.

 

[Ravenbird]

Then incentivize accurate reporting on COD, etc.

That could actually help the public help the breed by informed customer choice.

And reward the breeders doing the best work on the magic that goes beyond "wire diagrams" and dna markers.

From what I observe, very few breeders really care. They are breeding either for purpose and prove it through working abilities or breeding for looks and prove it through show, or breed to make money by breeding something "special" - color, size, cuteness, popularity, doodles, etc. etc.
So I don't know how you'd incentivize reporting COD if it helped steer customers away from their lines? It's mostly those breeders that are not reporting because it's bad for their business.
And what kind of reward (and by what means?) would be given to breeders doing the best work of over & beyond the call? They already have breeder of the year or some such for most breeds and their various oversight clubs, but almost always it's for performance and winning with offspring, not health.

Whether breeding for a working dog or a show dog or a companion dog, Doberman breeders have to start looking at longevity in the pedigree and they won't until the buyers demand it.

Since the internet made pedigree information so easy for me to research, just like you, I found as many different sources to look at and thought IF ONLY there was more information on these dogs! If it was required! If breeders would just take the time to put in COD, or hell, just the year of death in many cases... But after thinking of this for a bit, so many really don't care, by the looks of Dobequest pedigree - many breeding dogs with incomplete health reports listed!) and some puppy mills actually make efforts to hide information.Many buyers don't have any idea that they even need to be asking questions, much less insisting on information.

So anyway, good ideas, but I have no clue how to get more people involved.

 

[Ravenbird]

True. Now I have to find a bitch I really like and convince a breeder to do an AI breeding if I foot the bill.

It may very well be about the only way to get a puppy from these old lines! Do let us know if you bring this into reality!

I don't have time to work on it right now, but it would be fun to follow the pedigrees of his sons to see if any progeny are around and at stud. He produced Swift Run dogs and Swift Run is where Masaya got started with her kennel line. Not sure if Swift Run still produces but Masaya does.

 

[BGpa]

From what I observe, very few breeders really care. They are breeding either for purpose and prove it through working abilities or breeding for looks and prove it through show, or breed to make money by breeding something "special" - color, size, cuteness, popularity, doodles, etc. etc.
So I don't know how you'd incentivize reporting COD if it helped steer customers away from their lines? It's mostly those breeders that are not reporting because it's bad for their business.
And what kind of reward (and by what means?) would be given to breeders doing the best work of over & beyond the call? They already have breeder of the year or some such for most breeds and their various oversight clubs, but almost always it's for performance and winning with offspring, not health.

Whether breeding for a working dog or a show dog or a companion dog, Doberman breeders have to start looking at longevity in the pedigree and they won't until the buyers demand it.

Since the internet made pedigree information so easy for me to research, just like you, I found as many different sources to look at and thought IF ONLY there was more information on these dogs! If it was required! If breeders would just take the time to put in COD, or hell, just the year of death in many cases... But after thinking of this for a bit, so many really don't care, by the looks of Dobequest pedigree - many breeding dogs with incomplete health reports listed!) and some puppy mills actually make efforts to hide information.Many buyers don't have any idea that they even need to be asking questions, much less insisting on information.

So anyway, good ideas, but I have no clue how to get more people involved.

Agreed. I'm just kicking this idea around, and keep going back to free market consumer choice.

"The market will always fill an unmet need, and where one does not exist, a product/service provider should create the need, and fill it".

So for example, what is the unmet need, and how to create it?

I keep thinking consumer education on how to buy, and best tools to make it easy.

Its clear the dichotomy between show and working lines exists in many once "total functional dog" breeds, and your concerns are echoed in other forums I've read, and periodically over the years in the doberman breed...and some of same in Europe.

But I may be misreading what buyers want.
And to your point: things are the way they are for a reason...the evolution of needs/wants that are different from that which you prefer.

 

[Ravenbird]

But I may be misreading what buyers want.
And to your point: things are the way they are for a reason...the evolution of needs/wants that are different from that which you prefer.

My assumptions have been way off, until I looked at the big-big picture, which took me a long time. Years.

I thought most everybody would be in favor of breeding first for healthy dogs and 2nd for whatever they personally wanted. But after years of observation, most people just want what they want, and whatever comes with it is just a little baggage that they can deal with, cross that bridge if it's in their path so to speak. Since I know so very few personally but so very many in observation I could be wrong about some, but actions speak louder than words. I observe that some will breed what their market wants, or that in their opinion will boost their chances of success in whatever field they are in. I get it. That's business. Where I failed in my assumptions is that they would choose this type of breeding (success and sales) over searching for a breeding match that would produce a healthier litter with less chances (via pedigree lack of disease/longevity) but may not have as much concentration of show/work traits, so a crapshoot on your litter becoming instant stars. And again, I get it, I can't blame them. They are invested. But what I also didn't get is that very few of us on the buyers end know much of anything and just buy whatever is out there.

So there is no buyer demand except "I want to show, so I want a dog bred from CH's." or "I want an IGP/sport dog, so I want to buy from a sport dog breeder with those kinds of titles". So that's where they go and what they buy. Beginners with big dreams or pros that have been around the block. Then there are two more types of breeders, most just say BYB, but I separate them into Mills and BYB. Mills produce litter after litter after litter and make money hand over fist. They produce and sell more puppies than anyone, and almost all of them are to John Q Public who has no idea about health problems in the breed. They have 5 - 20 bitches and half a dozen breeding dogs. They live and whelp in kennels. Then what I call BYB are pet owners who breed a litter or two a year at the most, usually don't know much, don't have a clue about testing but they have a nice dog and their neighbor has a nice dog so they have a litter and get on Good Dog website and get $500 per puppy and they are tickled to death at how easy that was. On this forum we bunch the mills with the BYB word, but honestly they are two different deals and Mills are the most dangerous of all to the Dobermans health. So if the buyer "demand" is looked at, it might amount to 10% show, 5% working, 5% active companion sports, and the rest are just looking for a companion Doberman. I'm GUESSING at these numbers, literally making them up, but I think most dogs go to pet homes. Why would they even imagine they need to ask the breeder as many questions as the breeder asks them? I simply think puppy buyers are not of the mindset to read, study and work hard to find the perfect puppy.

I'm with you on all the things I wish would happen, that we could review pedigrees, that breeders would post all the info on their breeding dogs, and stay up to date with their progeny, be available and open to talk to about things that have not gone to their liking in their own dogs. Honesty & transparency. LOL, I'm asking too much, I know. I use to think that we buyers could change the way breeders looked at their own programs, but now I think those of us with a high expectation of breeders will be sorting through them for quite some time. Basically they are just like us: They want what they want and at this point they don't have to change their ways to suit buyer demands.

 

[Nordika]

It's all so complicated. There are sire and dam with longevity 13-14 years that have offspring die young of DCM and also sire and dam that died young from DCM that produced offspring with longevity. Very difficult to make longevity a selection criteria. Also, there have been many structural things that have/are still being bred away from, ugly heads with snippy muzzles, flat fronts, straight shoulders, short forearms, etc. So some that appear nice on paper/pedigrees, until you see pictures and see half the dogs in the pedigree and many offspring were hit with the ugly stick it has been difficult to find dogs that combine form and function with healthy lines/and or longevity. Dobequest:Dog Profile Page
I liked this dog, BFL-2 (meaning parents and grandparents are longevity certified) and yet thanks to their health testing and disclosure - he's vWD affected. What do you do? Create a litter of carriers? I think I would do that.
I'm glad I'm not a breeder. I can imagine that it is extremely difficult to make breeding decisions, especially for those that have spent decades trying to maintain their lines.

 

[BGpa]

It's all so complicated. There are sire and dam with longevity 13-14 years that have offspring die young of DCM and also sire and dam that died young from DCM that produced offspring with longevity. Very difficult to make longevity a selection criteria. Also, there have been many structural things that have/are still being bred away from, ugly heads with snippy muzzles, flat fronts, straight shoulders, short forearms, etc. So some that appear nice on paper/pedigrees, until you see pictures and see half the dogs in the pedigree and many offspring were hit with the ugly stick it has been difficult to find dogs that combine form and function with healthy lines/and or longevity. Dobequest:Dog Profile Page
I liked this dog, BFL-2 (meaning parents and grandparents are longevity certified) and yet thanks to their health testing and disclosure - he's vWD affected. What do you do? Create a litter of carriers? I think I would do that.
I'm glad I'm not a breeder. I can imagine that it is extremely difficult to make breeding decisions, especially for those that have spent decades trying to maintain their lines.

I think it will come down to DPCA actually walking the walk.

1. Require full lifetime disclosure of COD in Dobequest as a continuing condition of membership, of all puppies in litters.
DPCA has made a good start with Longevity Project, LC and BFL but its invalid if its voluntary.
2. Subsidize the cost of testing on Betterbred, VGL, Embark and pay the cost to list on OFA, CHIC in addition to current requirements.
3. Open the DobeQuest database to all
4. Make it MUCH easier to become a member, or associate without voting rights.

Let the free market decide.
I'm inspired by the FKC and German Kennel Club to run the outcross to fix DCM project.

 

[Ravenbird]

I liked this dog, BFL-2 (meaning parents and grandparents are longevity certified) and yet thanks to their health testing and disclosure - he's vWD affected. What do you do? Create a litter of carriers? I think I would do that.

Yes, Clear female would be the only way to not create an affected. There is nothing at all wrong with carriers, except if you have a carrier bitch you are limited to only clear males, cutting your breeding options way down, unless you want to gamble on creating an affected puppy. Obviously it didn't hurt this dog who lived to be 14 while affected, but some are not so lucky. Ask me how I know. As a buyer I would pass on a litter that didn't have at least one clear parent.

I do agree on everything you say about DCM, it's all a crapshoot unless/until they have a real test. It IS statistically a better chance at living more years with a pedigree of long-lived dogs no matter what the causes of death, so that's my gauge now of what I'd look for in a future puppy. Almost everything is heritable, with science & studies behind it, in humans and I expect dogs are no different. So whatever a dog dies of after 10, I don't worry so much about. But dogs that die of disease under 9 years I look at their family - sires, dams, siblings, and offspring - and if the same thing is repeating in those records then I would reconsider that line. There will never be anything perfect, and I totally agree that breeders are up against a wall with this breed, especially the ones really trying hard to establish health and longevity while reaching or preserving show standards and workability. I can't see it getting any easier.

 

[JanS]

if you have a carrier bitch you are limited to only clear males, cutting your breeding options way down, unless you want to gamble on creating an affected puppy. Obviously it didn't hurt this dog who lived to be 14 while affected, but some are not so lucky.

I discussed this with our breeder and she said that even if a pup is affected, the chances of them being clinically affected is pretty low, but of course it is a chance you're taking.

It's been posted before, here is a handy chart on breeding stats when taking vWD into consideration.

 

[Ravenbird]

I think it will come down to DPCA actually walking the walk.

1. Require full lifetime disclosure of COD in Dobequest as a continuing condition of membership, of all puppies in litters.
DPCA has made a good start with Longevity Project, LC and BFL but its invalid if its voluntary.
2. Subsidize the cost of testing on Betterbred, VGL, Embark and pay the cost to list on OFA, CHIC in addition to current requirements.
3. Open the DobeQuest database to all
4. Make it MUCH easier to become a member, or associate without voting rights.

Let the free market decide.
I'm inspired by the FKC and German Kennel Club to run the outcross to fix DCM project.

I think you are exactly right. I think the suggested 4 changes are spot on. I hate things being required, but it's probably the only way to make it happen. Right now I would say it would never pass the board of the DPCA to even be written up as a suggestion. In fact, I'd say each 1 - 4 wouldn't fly even as a stand-alone suggestion. I could be wrong, I don't belong to the club, but I think the pearl-clutching would be real.

I had to laugh when the outcross program was presented on several different Doberman based pages on FB the outcry could be heard through a brick building. Not one understood what an outcross/breeed-back even meant. They thought the idea was to create new breeds of these 50/50 outcrosses. CLUE.LESS. And I guess no desire to read the article, do some research, ask questions instead of screaming "NOooooo!!!" Any way, I pretty much feel like most of the breeding world is happy to go along with the current state of affairs, and never mind that the chances of your dog living to 10 are less than 50/50.

 

[Ravenbird]

I discussed this with our breeder and she said that even if a pup is affected, they chances of them being clinically affected is pretty low, but of course it is a chance you're taking.

Yes, I do understand that. But my take on it is that the Doberman has so many other chances for ailments now, why add one more? All a breeder has to do is say, "this boy is not for me as my girl is a carrier" - and move on to find a clear boy.

As one old horse vet said "if you only have one horse and it dies, that's losing your whole herd". So even though not many affected dogs show symptoms or die of vWD, but if it did, and it was your dog, it's devastating. It's the absolute easiest disease to 100% prevent by a simple test, why should anyone risk it?

 

[Ravenbird]

And here's a share that I'm putting here because I want to be clear that I know that there are many many breeders that I think are doing all they can and then some. It takes a ton of effort to do things right and things still fall apart. Please know that when I seem endlessly critical that I'm very aware that there are some gems out there and for them I'm grateful.

So with Ms. Starrys words, I'll leave this reminder to myself:

Elaine Starry​

8͏h͏ ·

The Blood, Sweat, and Tears of a True Breeder
It’s never just about puppies.
Anyone from the outside sees a litter of beautiful puppies and thinks — how lucky. How easy. How wonderful it must be to be surrounded by puppies all day.
They don't see what came before.
Blood
A true breeder bleeds for their breed.
They bleed money — and anyone who has ever done it right knows you never, ever make money doing it right. The health testing. OFA hips and elbows, cardiac, heart, eyes. The stud fee to the right dog three states away, not the convenient one down the road. The emergency C-section at 2 a.m. on a Sunday that costs $4,000 and still doesn't guarantee everyone makes it.
They bleed from the heart. They keep the dog that will never be bred because she didn't pass her health clearances, but she's family now. They place the perfect show puppy in a pet home because that pet home is where he will be happiest. They say goodbye to the old foundation bitch at 13, who built their whole program, and bury a piece of their soul with her.
And sometimes, they literally bleed. Whelping boxes, toenails, teeth, long nights on the floor.
Sweat
There is no day off. There is no vacation without a detailed, 3-page care sheet and 10 check-in calls.
It's the sweat of stacking a squirmy 6-month-old puppy for the hundredth time so he learns to stand right. The sweat of grooming, training, socializing, driving 8 hours to a show to not win, and driving 8 hours home.
It's working a full-time job, and then coming home to your second, unpaid full-time job because you love a breed enough to try to preserve it.
A true breeder is up every two hours with a weak puppy, tube feeding, willing that tiny life to live. They are on their knees scrubbing a whelping box at 3 a.m. They are researching pedigrees until their eyes cross — not for what will sell, but for what will complement, what will improve, what will last.
Tears
Oh, the tears.
Tears of joy when that ultrasound shows heartbeats. When a puppy you bred wins his first point. When you get a photo from a family five years later and that dog is still sleeping on their kid's bed every night.
And tears that crush you.
The puppy that doesn't make it no matter how hard you tried. The beloved bitch you lose on the table. The perfect breeding that didn't take. The person you trusted with one of your babies who lets you down. The Facebook comment from someone who has never bred a litter in their life telling you that you're part of the problem, while you're the one staying up all night trying to fix it.
A true breeder cries in private so their kids and their dogs don't worry. Then they wipe their face and go check on the litter again.
A true breeder is not a puppy factory. A puppy factory never cries. A puppy factory never loses money. A puppy factory never keeps a dog that doesn't make them money.
A true breeder is a preservationist. A historian. A nurse, a janitor, a trainer, a geneticist, a counselor to puppy buyers at 11 p.m. when the puppy has diarrhea.
If you are lucky enough to get a puppy from a true breeder — wait for it. Respect the process. The questionnaire, the interview, the contract that says the dog comes back to them no matter what, no matter when, for its whole life.
Because that contract isn't about control. It's about love.
That puppy you hold in your arms? That puppy cost someone blood, sweat, and tears long before it ever reached yours.

 

[Rits]

and move on to find a clear boy

If we did this, bred only to clears, this would bottleneck our breed even more, sadly. vWD vs longevity vs DCM vs diversity. Have to weigh the risks. Rarely we see clinically affected vWD in this breed. Carrier to carrier and even affected to carriers sometimes has to be done to try and save our breed.

To put it into perspective:



And of those 3.12%, just because they are worth of being bred, doesn't mean they are the right dog for your girl - maybe they are related, temperament doesn't suit yours, pedigree is littered with early death, dog is a deadbeat/no drive, both pairings have straighter fronts, etc. etc.

I'm not saying a breeder shouldn't do everything to try to breed to a clear. But sometimes, the clear dogs out there don't fit all the other criteria we have to take into consideration when finding a stud dog. I wish it were so easy to find a stud. I'm still looking for one for Trendy after searching for a year now and every time I get excited that he's the perfect one, there is one reason he's not. Ultimately, I will have to choose what I'm willing to give up in order to move forward.

 

[DobieDesire]

And here's a share that I'm putting here because I want to be clear that I know that there are many many breeders that I think are doing all they can and then some. It takes a ton of effort to do things right and things still fall apart. Please know that when I seem endlessly critical that I'm very aware that there are some gems out there and for them I'm grateful.

So with Ms. Starrys words, I'll leave this reminder to myself:

Elaine Starry​

8͏h͏ ·

The Blood, Sweat, and Tears of a True Breeder
It’s never just about puppies.
Anyone from the outside sees a litter of beautiful puppies and thinks — how lucky. How easy. How wonderful it must be to be surrounded by puppies all day.
They don't see what came before.
Blood
A true breeder bleeds for their breed.
They bleed money — and anyone who has ever done it right knows you never, ever make money doing it right. The health testing. OFA hips and elbows, cardiac, heart, eyes. The stud fee to the right dog three states away, not the convenient one down the road. The emergency C-section at 2 a.m. on a Sunday that costs $4,000 and still doesn't guarantee everyone makes it.
They bleed from the heart. They keep the dog that will never be bred because she didn't pass her health clearances, but she's family now. They place the perfect show puppy in a pet home because that pet home is where he will be happiest. They say goodbye to the old foundation bitch at 13, who built their whole program, and bury a piece of their soul with her.
And sometimes, they literally bleed. Whelping boxes, toenails, teeth, long nights on the floor.
Sweat
There is no day off. There is no vacation without a detailed, 3-page care sheet and 10 check-in calls.
It's the sweat of stacking a squirmy 6-month-old puppy for the hundredth time so he learns to stand right. The sweat of grooming, training, socializing, driving 8 hours to a show to not win, and driving 8 hours home.
It's working a full-time job, and then coming home to your second, unpaid full-time job because you love a breed enough to try to preserve it.
A true breeder is up every two hours with a weak puppy, tube feeding, willing that tiny life to live. They are on their knees scrubbing a whelping box at 3 a.m. They are researching pedigrees until their eyes cross — not for what will sell, but for what will complement, what will improve, what will last.
Tears
Oh, the tears.
Tears of joy when that ultrasound shows heartbeats. When a puppy you bred wins his first point. When you get a photo from a family five years later and that dog is still sleeping on their kid's bed every night.
And tears that crush you.
The puppy that doesn't make it no matter how hard you tried. The beloved bitch you lose on the table. The perfect breeding that didn't take. The person you trusted with one of your babies who lets you down. The Facebook comment from someone who has never bred a litter in their life telling you that you're part of the problem, while you're the one staying up all night trying to fix it.
A true breeder cries in private so their kids and their dogs don't worry. Then they wipe their face and go check on the litter again.
A true breeder is not a puppy factory. A puppy factory never cries. A puppy factory never loses money. A puppy factory never keeps a dog that doesn't make them money.
A true breeder is a preservationist. A historian. A nurse, a janitor, a trainer, a geneticist, a counselor to puppy buyers at 11 p.m. when the puppy has diarrhea.
If you are lucky enough to get a puppy from a true breeder — wait for it. Respect the process. The questionnaire, the interview, the contract that says the dog comes back to them no matter what, no matter when, for its whole life.
Because that contract isn't about control. It's about love.
That puppy you hold in your arms? That puppy cost someone blood, sweat, and tears long before it ever reached yours.

Would you mind if I copy and paste this on a couple of Craigslists Pets?? I love it.

 

[BGpa]

Would you mind if I copy and paste this on a couple of Craigslists Pets?? I love it.

Same. This ought to go to a couple other dobe places online. Including FakeBook (which I dont use but see is more prevalent than public webforums, sadly and thus like the rest of Meta more thoroughly filled with scammers and Sh1tposters)

BTW the other dobe forum is part of a larger Canadian public company owned network thats now crossposting to 8 other dog forums so it could do good in other breed forums and general dog forums that are also xenforo supported.

PS again the greatest of respect and thanks to those ethical preservation breeders who operate this way.
@Rits and others you onow who you are. I see a lot of good work being done in other breeds too. Ms Starry os a rottie breeder but see also GSDs, labs, goldens- the popular breeds from original working line dogs that share the frustration you have shared @Ravenbird

If its any consolation you are not alone and my dog nerd belief is the needle IS swinging...

You cant fix stoopid, so there will always be buyers of merle dobes "DNA proof DCM" clear...

The solution is education and passing the word is what we can do...