Humble Pie served up.

Good on you for not quitting - by 7 minutes I'd be outta there
Believe me, my thoughts were right there.

I don't think it's in the rule book, but I read somewhere that in any IGP event, you don't excuse yourself, you keep working no matter how bad it's going. If you're going to be excused let the judge tell you. He did allow for the fact that I did keep the dog in directions, I never got out of the center line, she did an excellent job at the first article find and I did all the proper things (and the dog did all the proper things) in relation to that, so he gave me all he could. If I had quit it would have been less. Soooo, hard as it was, I stuck to the program.

I'm pretty over it now, but boy it was a shocker for several days.
 
Good thoughts!

I don't know nearly enough on how to read "no wind". I would have thought that the odor would just pool around the article. It was AZ, cool morning, air warming fast as the sun rose, so maybe with no wind, cold air sinks & heat rises... the ground was pea gravel so very cold, the sun had not started warming it yet - it was about 9 a.m. Maybe if the odor was holding to the ground and she was air scenting with a high nose she was missing it all except when she flew by and made her own breeze? Then she may have caught a whiff but have no way to follow it to source? @Dasz88 you have by now really studied the elements of weather and air/scent flow. Does this make any sense?

@LifeofRubie was asking about training like I trialed - well just typing that description of the conditions I realized I rarely trained articles before it started warming up for the day. I may try a cold morning before a breeze comes up to see if that makes a difference. The other dog that did so well did not air scent at all, he swept the ground with his nose like tracking while trotting around.
Yes!! It makes a lot of sense! Cold air will make things dense and moisture makes things sink (and it doesn't need to be very moist, just relatively moist compared to the environment. So in arizona, it is dry but pea gravel will hold in the moisture from the night before. Do you know, for our sar team, it is actually common knowledge that morning is the WORST time of day for a search? That's when you most often see fumigating (or total stagnant) air... either of which are notoriously difficult for a dog to find. I'm not surprised a tracking style dog would have a much easier time than an air scent style dog!

Small anecdote: i was on an actual search and recovery mission a few weeks ago where we were looking for a whole body. This is not in my sector, but the woman had crawled into a hunting blind and died. An air scent dog was searching out there around 830 am. Minimal wind. Sun was coming down but ground was cold (really similar to your situation). The dog COULDNT FIND the person, even doing a pass right by the blind (and the blind had a broken window). And I know this dog has a good nose, I've seen it many times before. But the scent just wasn't escaping.

I bet the tracking dog had it easier with his nose to the ground and going in perpendicular lines, he'd pick up at least something down low. But it probably didn't even make it up to ashas nose. Did you notice any behavior or just no recognition at all?
 
Yes!! It makes a lot of sense! Cold air will make things dense and moisture makes things sink (and it doesn't need to be very moist, just relatively moist compared to the environment. So in arizona, it is dry but pea gravel will hold in the moisture from the night before. Do you know, for our sar team, it is actually common knowledge that morning is the WORST time of day for a search? That's when you most often see fumigating (or total stagnant) air... either of which are notoriously difficult for a dog to find. I'm not surprised a tracking style dog would have a much easier time than an air scent style dog!

Small anecdote: i was on an actual search and recovery mission a few weeks ago where we were looking for a whole body. This is not in my sector, but the woman had crawled into a hunting blind and died. An air scent dog was searching out there around 830 am. Minimal wind. Sun was coming down but ground was cold (really similar to your situation). The dog COULDNT FIND the person, even doing a pass right by the blind (and the blind had a broken window). And I know this dog has a good nose, I've seen it many times before. But the scent just wasn't escaping.

I bet the tracking dog had it easier with his nose to the ground and going in perpendicular lines, he'd pick up at least something down low. But it probably didn't even make it up to ashas nose. Did you notice any behavior or just no recognition at all?
Also what size was the other dog vs Asha? Even a few inches matter!
 
Yes!! It makes a lot of sense! Cold air will make things dense and moisture makes things sink (and it doesn't need to be very moist, just relatively moist compared to the environment. So in arizona, it is dry but pea gravel will hold in the moisture from the night before. Do you know, for our sar team, it is actually common knowledge that morning is the WORST time of day for a search? That's when you most often see fumigating (or total stagnant) air... either of which are notoriously difficult for a dog to find. I'm not surprised a tracking style dog would have a much easier time than an air scent style dog!

Small anecdote: i was on an actual search and recovery mission a few weeks ago where we were looking for a whole body. This is not in my sector, but the woman had crawled into a hunting blind and died. An air scent dog was searching out there around 830 am. Minimal wind. Sun was coming down but ground was cold (really similar to your situation). The dog COULDNT FIND the person, even doing a pass right by the blind (and the blind had a broken window). And I know this dog has a good nose, I've seen it many times before. But the scent just wasn't escaping.

I bet the tracking dog had it easier with his nose to the ground and going in perpendicular lines, he'd pick up at least something down low. But it probably didn't even make it up to ashas nose.
Very informative!!! Stuff I vaguely "knew" from reading about conditions but didn't think about until way later. And when you know these conditions are hard for your type of dog, not sure how to help them. Well, in SW trials you are allowed to wander and encourage the dog to cover the area, but in this trial being restricted to an imaginary center line, it was really hard to help. Especially since Asha doesn't take directional commands too seriously. LOL
Did you notice any behavior or just no recognition at all?
There were several areas of interest, I don't know if you read through this whole thread or watched the video, but she did a false alert exactly where the article was for the dog before. She's never done a false alert in Article Search practice (plenty of times in AKC Scent Work on essential oils though). I knew her down at that spot "wasn't quite right". When she finds an article you can see her change of behavior, zero in on it, then down. With the false alert, she didn't seem to be zeroing in on any object, just said "about here" and downed. She was getting frustrated by this time by me insisting to keep searching and her insisting that there's nothing to find.

Also what size was the other dog vs Asha? Even a few inches matter!
Big GSD, very well trained IGP & tracking. 90% of his search his nose was about 5 inches above the ground. Swept it like a broom. TOTALLY different scenting style. Looking at the conditions, he was the perfect dog. The other dog entered was a GSD too, but slim, small build and did about 50/50 air scenting and low to ground scenting. That dog found the first article in about 2 minutes then, like Asha, took to more and more covering ground too quickly with head high, but they did eventually find the 2nd one.

Thanks for your input - very helpful to me!!!
 
That seems odd? If a dog is truly distressed, you can't ask to leave? Or am I misunderstanding?
Oh yes, of course you can. I could have. As I said, I couldn't find it in the rule book, so it might just be "what people say". Other trials in IGP do not have a time limit, so when you finish the routine, you're done. This one there was a 10 minute limit and I felt obligated to stay in it for the duration. It never occurred to me that Asha would take more than 3 or 4 minutes max to find both articles, much less not find them both. Never say never!

OK, I searched around on on an IGP forum there is this answer about it (Granted, this is a persons quote, not the rulebook. And a side note regarding "yelling dogs name or no" the only permitted word is "out", so this DQ would be b/c handler mistake. If they yelled "out" they are limited to 3 times and if the dog doesn't comply then it's still DQ but technically on the dog, not the person):

DQ- the dog or handler broke the rules. Dog doesn't out, handler yells the dogs name or yells no.
Term - the dog may not have engaged the helper or maybe won't start the track and the judge calls it.

If you pull before the trial and before handing in your score book - no requirement.
If you pull during a trial - there must be a verified reason and usually requires vet documentation of an injury. So ya just can't quit because you don't like how things are going.


I'm glad you asked this because it's good for me to be reminded of details and know the facts. I've got a short video to watch on DQ vs TERM and I'll update if it's different from this quote I copied.
 
that is weird... if anything ever went sideways in agility or barn hunt, you can leave the 'ring.' Perhaps there may also be more 'safety' concerns in those types of disciplines? Interesting...
 
If a dog is truly distressed, you can't ask to leave? Or am I misunderstanding?
OK, this is from the USCA rulebook on Terminating:

Pulling a dog for injury / sickness – a dog may be pulled from continuing to compete in a trial due to an injury or sickness. The handler may make the request to pull the dog from further competition to the trial secretary or the judge. The judge has the final decision and may request a veterinarian excuse to validate the injury or sickness. The certificate must be presented to the judge within four (4) days after the trial. The judge has the right to ask the handler to present the dog for evaluation by the judge regardless of if a veterinarian excuse is provided. If the request is granted and/or the veterinarian certification is presented the entry into the scorebook will be “Terminated due to injury / illness” if no certification is presented or the judge does not agree to the handlers request an entry into the scorebook will be“Insufficient due to termination” and may also be considered unsportsmanlike behavior.

This is probably what I was remembering when I said it was looked down on.
 

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