How to correct a nippy bitey puppy and establish a pack heiarchy in your home.

[Drogon]

Thanks for posting this. I have a similar situation and would like to hear people's advice and opinions. My 5 month old male dobe wants to dominate (be pack leader, alpha-dog, etc) to every dog at the dog park. Some of the older dogs basically just ignore him and then he doesn't bother them. Any dog that shows any sign of wanting to run/play my dog will go after them. It's not an aggressive bite but it is a full mouth 'bite' to other dog's neck. If you've ever seen 2 wolf cubs play, he basically does the same. He doesn't care what size or sex the other dog is. Sometimes once he gets a hold, I have to pry his jaws apart. Today he was trying dominate a 150lb 2yr male Rottweiler. Luckily we separated them before my dobe irritated the Rott too much.
To complicate the matter, I plan on working my pup in either Schutzhund or Ring Sport. Both require biting, so I'm at a loss on how to handle him at the dog park. It's great exercise for him. I'd really like to continue taking him there. Part of Ring Sport involves the dog wearing a muzzle, so I'm considering getting him a muzzle now.
Thanks for your time

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Thanks for posting this. I have a similar situation and would like to hear people's advice and opinions. My 5 month old male dobe wants to dominate (be pack leader, alpha-dog, etc) to every dog at the dog park. Some of the older dogs basically just ignore him and then he doesn't bother them. Any dog that shows any sign of wanting to run/play my dog will go after them. It's not an aggressive bite but it is a full mouth 'bite' to other dog's neck. If you've ever seen 2 wolf cubs play, he basically does the same. He doesn't care what size or sex the other dog is. Sometimes once he gets a hold, I have to pry his jaws apart. Today he was trying dominate a 150lb 2yr male Rottweiler. Luckily we separated them before my dobe irritated the Rott too much.
To complicate the matter, I plan on working my pup in either Schutzhund or Ring Sport. Both require biting, so I'm at a loss on how to handle him at the dog park. It's great exercise for him. I'd really like to continue taking him there. Part of Ring Sport involves the dog wearing a muzzle, so I'm considering getting him a muzzle now.
Thanks for your time

I wonder first of all: Is he really trying to dominate? Or maybe he just likes to play rough like that? Does he do other things that indicate he is a dominant little 5 month old? Posturing over other dogs' necks, mounting other dogs, and other body language?

It's a good question you ask. If you might want to get him involved in sports that involve bitework, you do want to be careful how you deal with biting behavior. With the two Schutzhund / IPO - line Dobes I've had so far, the breeder had suggested I do not correct them for biting as puppies, or even that I react by saying "ouch" or anything when they bite. This is biting people. I don't know if the same applies to biting dogs.

I do think though that it should be okay for you to train your boy to respond to your command to stop what they're doing.

Further, if you are able to gain some control over his biting through training that would be good. I'm thinking working with him with tug toys and teaching him a command for bite and a command for release. Will this translate to any control over his biting dogs' necks? I don't know. But if you have that control over his bite/no bite of tugs and such, I doubt your calling him off other dogs would do much harm to your training aspirations.

 

[Doberman Gang]

Dobermans play rough and can be very mouthy, I doubt at 5 months your dog is showing anything more than play biting. That being said, dog parks are a bad idea. It only takes one bad experience to ruin a good dog. If you are thinking of doing a bite sport I would suggest taking your dog to training and skip the dog parks all together. The training will be more beneficial and also wear your dog out mentally and physically. The earlier you start in a bite sport the better, if you wait till they are older there is going to be more bad habits that will need to be retrained.


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[salisa826]

My dog is 8 months old and will mouth other dogs while playing but only if the other dog mouths too. But he doesn't pull at their skin. If your dog is mouthing and pulling then that needs to be corrected. We were going to a dog beach over the winter but stopped at about 6 months of age. We skip them all together now.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I come from a standpoint of not having the money to take my Dobe to training, especially since you'll most likely find that your nearest Schutzhund-type club meets at least 20 miles away from your home.

That's why I was talking about working on his bite/release skills yourself.

I agree that dog parks are a risk. It's funny: I used to be a dog park regular in Minneosta and subscribed to the theory that the dogs will work things out on their own and the vast majority of fights are not serious and will not cause any damage. My Dobe got in numerous scraps and never hurt another dog and was only hurt himself once, and that was my fault for grabbing his collar.

Now, for some reason I'm more leary. Maybe I'm more cautious about everything in life as I get older? But I just really don't want to incur any vet bills be they for my Dobe or any other dog.

That said, I have started taking my 10 month old Oji to the nearby dog park. On my first visit with the dog we were fostering, she got slashed up by a small male Husky. On my second visit with Oji as a little pup I kept him in the small dog area and was worried by some of the people and dogs I saw show up to the park.

Since then I've come around to thinking folks here in Cincinnati are probably as responsible as folks were in Minnesota. You get some people who "get it." You get some people who don't. You see some folks who bring their dogs there that aren't well socialized and/or are overly dominant/aggressive. On my last visit there was a bulky dog a bit taller than mine that looked to be a Ridgeback mix, though the owner said the shelter told her it's a Doberman / Boxer. That dog was fairly dominant and took on Oji as a little project, chasing him and growling and biting at this back end when he would catch up (that dog was surprisingly fast for its bulk). He also mounted Oji once just after a Pug mix tried to mount Oji. But sure enough the dogs all worked things out on their own. The owner of the Ridgeback mix was actually a reasonable, nice lady.

I know many of you are cringing right now. I think it may be a bit too alarmist to say that one bad incident will ruin a dog though. Maybe if it is an especially bad incident and you have an overly sensitive or soft dog. That said, I personally know how to break up a fight and am physically young and capable enough to move quickly and do it. So any serious fight I break up. It's certainly not without risk though!
[DOUBLEPOST=1432565517][/DOUBLEPOST]I will add this basic tenet: If you try to break up a dog fight, do not put your hands near the facial end of the dogs. Don't try to grab collars.

 

[salisa826]

Honestly I would love to take Denali to the dog park. He loves to play with other dogs. But I guess I'm too worried that something might happen or he would get blamed for something. I have a friend that has a GSP puppy and they love to play with each other. He tries to mount her only when she stops playing with him (but I would correct before he did) and she knows exactly when he would try and her movements stop him. (She just gets up and plays). I hope that makes sense. And I always supervise.

We do come across dogs on our hikes. Most stop to say a quick hello (few seconds) and he's ok with that

 

[Drogon]

My pup is mouthing and pulling and standing over any dog he's tall enough to stand over. No mounting yet. He will sit on top of dogs that he's trying to stand over and they put up resistance.

"That dog was fairly dominant and took on Oji as a little project, chasing him and growling and biting at this back end when he would catch up.."
That sounds much like my pup. He prefers to play fight dominate the dogs that are his size or smaller but when no dogs of that size are around he'll do the same to whatever dog is around.
Sometimes 'it all works itself out' depending on how the other dog reacts. Sometimes other dog's don't go into submission position (roll over and expose stomach) they cower or try to get away. Those are the times that really concern me. He'll pull on their scruffs and/or ears and pull them to the ground. He still has puppy teeth so when he does that it often results in a squeal from the other dog, which of course disturbs the dog's owner.
Sometimes even once a dog shows what appears to me as full submission, my pup will still bite at it's legs and rear. As if to say 'get up and play fight me'.
He's tried to jump up and bite the back of the neck of an older male Great Dane. The Dane let out a bark that the entire park heard and my pup got the message. While that is great for my dog's behavior at the dog park, I don't know if its a good thing for his Schutzhund training. Yet another Dane - female and a bit younger - will jump around and somewhat play with him when he tries to bite her on the back of the neck. So far the only dog at that park that seems like he would hurt my dog if my dog irritated him too much is the 150lb 2yr old Rottweiler

I have 2 trainers - one for basic obedience and the other for Schutzhund (yes they are both about 30 minutes away). My Schutzhund trainer has started my pup off with tracking, so we don't have any bite work. I have my own bite sleeve and play/work with him just in the yard. He will release the sleeve or a ball or pretty much anything on command - except for another dog. My obedience trainer 'specializes' in Dobes. He owns a ring sport titled Dobe and has owned other Schutzhund 3 Dobes. I'll see them both again on Tuesday and will ask their opinions as well. I have a feeling he's going to tell me not to go to the dog park. I had asked him a week or so ago in general about taking him to the dog park and he said something to the effect 'I don't mind that, he's just a puppy". At the time my pup wasn't exhibiting as much of this behavior. I'm not sure if it is coincidental or if the training has given him more self confidence - enough to think he can dominate. I'd certainly rather have the training and self-confidence over the dog park if I have to make that choice.

 

[Doberman Gang]

My pup is mouthing and pulling and standing over any dog he's tall enough to stand over. No mounting yet. He will sit on top of dogs that he's trying to stand over and they put up resistance.

"That dog was fairly dominant and took on Oji as a little project, chasing him and growling and biting at this back end when he would catch up.."
That sounds much like my pup. He prefers to play fight dominate the dogs that are his size or smaller but when no dogs of that size are around he'll do the same to whatever dog is around.
Sometimes 'it all works itself out' depending on how the other dog reacts. Sometimes other dog's don't go into submission position (roll over and expose stomach) they cower or try to get away. Those are the times that really concern me. He'll pull on their scruffs and/or ears and pull them to the ground. He still has puppy teeth so when he does that it often results in a squeal from the other dog, which of course disturbs the dog's owner.
Sometimes even once a dog shows what appears to me as full submission, my pup will still bite at it's legs and rear. As if to say 'get up and play fight me'.
He's tried to jump up and bite the back of the neck of an older male Great Dane. The Dane let out a bark that the entire park heard and my pup got the message. While that is great for my dog's behavior at the dog park, I don't know if its a good thing for his Schutzhund training. Yet another Dane - female and a bit younger - will jump around and somewhat play with him when he tries to bite her on the back of the neck. So far the only dog at that park that seems like he would hurt my dog if my dog irritated him too much is the 150lb 2yr old Rottweiler

I have 2 trainers - one for basic obedience and the other for Schutzhund (yes they are both about 30 minutes away). My Schutzhund trainer has started my pup off with tracking, so we don't have any bite work. I have my own bite sleeve and play/work with him just in the yard. He will release the sleeve or a ball or pretty much anything on command - except for another dog. My obedience trainer 'specializes' in Dobes. He owns a ring sport titled Dobe and has owned other Schutzhund 3 Dobes. I'll see them both again on Tuesday and will ask their opinions as well. I have a feeling he's going to tell me not to go to the dog park. I had asked him a week or so ago in general about taking him to the dog park and he said something to the effect 'I don't mind that, he's just a puppy". At the time my pup wasn't exhibiting as much of this behavior. I'm not sure if it is coincidental or if the training has given him more self confidence - enough to think he can dominate. I'd certainly rather have the training and self-confidence over the dog park if I have to make that choice.

Working your own dog with a ball or tug is a great way to build a good bond in obedience. That being said, using a bite sleeve to train bitework needs to be left to a helper. You can't teach your own dog this, it must be taught by someone else. You will end up with conflict issues with your dog. Where are you located? Who is your trainer? Just curious if I may know them.



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[Doberman Gang]

I come from a standpoint of not having the money to take my Dobe to training, especially since you'll most likely find that your nearest Schutzhund-type club meets at least 20 miles away from your home.

That's why I was talking about working on his bite/release skills yourself.

I agree that dog parks are a risk. It's funny: I used to be a dog park regular in Minneosta and subscribed to the theory that the dogs will work things out on their own and the vast majority of fights are not serious and will not cause any damage. My Dobe got in numerous scraps and never hurt another dog and was only hurt himself once, and that was my fault for grabbing his collar.

Now, for some reason I'm more leary. Maybe I'm more cautious about everything in life as I get older? But I just really don't want to incur any vet bills be they for my Dobe or any other dog.

That said, I have started taking my 10 month old Oji to the nearby dog park. On my first visit with the dog we were fostering, she got slashed up by a small male Husky. On my second visit with Oji as a little pup I kept him in the small dog area and was worried by some of the people and dogs I saw show up to the park.

Since then I've come around to thinking folks here in Cincinnati are probably as responsible as folks were in Minnesota. You get some people who "get it." You get some people who don't. You see some folks who bring their dogs there that aren't well socialized and/or are overly dominant/aggressive. On my last visit there was a bulky dog a bit taller than mine that looked to be a Ridgeback mix, though the owner said the shelter told her it's a Doberman / Boxer. That dog was fairly dominant and took on Oji as a little project, chasing him and growling and biting at this back end when he would catch up (that dog was surprisingly fast for its bulk). He also mounted Oji once just after a Pug mix tried to mount Oji. But sure enough the dogs all worked things out on their own. The owner of the Ridgeback mix was actually a reasonable, nice lady.

I know many of you are cringing right now. I think it may be a bit too alarmist to say that one bad incident will ruin a dog though. Maybe if it is an especially bad incident and you have an overly sensitive or soft dog. That said, I personally know how to break up a fight and am physically young and capable enough to move quickly and do it. So any serious fight I break up. It's certainly not without risk though!
[DOUBLEPOST=1432565517][/DOUBLEPOST]I will add this basic tenet: If you try to break up a dog fight, do not put your hands near the facial end of the dogs. Don't try to grab collars.

One bad incident ruining a dog is about a dog that is being trained for the sport not just someone's pet. If you spend thousands of dollars on a dog and plan on competing you don't want to risk killing a dogs drive or confidence.
Bite training can't be trained by the owner. This is a conflict of interest for the dog. You are teaching the dog obedience and to respect you and what you are asking of them, then turn around and ask them to attack you. This is why you need to use a helper to test the dog.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Working your own dog with a ball or tug is a great way to build a good bond in obedience. That being said, using a bite sleeve to train bitework needs to be left to a helper. You can't teach your own dog this, it must be taught by someone else. You will end up with conflict issues with your dog. Where are you located? Who is your trainer? Just curious if I may know them.



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I have always thought this – that it's not good to have your own dog bite your sleeved arm. I've read, and it makes the most sense to me, that the helper (the person your dog alerts on/guards against/bites) should be someone the dog does not know and will not pal around with in the future. I think this makes sense particularly if you are interested in actual protection work, not just the sports.

That said, the owner of the sire of my previous Doberman was into letting him bite her through a sleeve (and let me take a bite or two the day I picked up my pup). I have to say that to this day it bothers me a bit that her Malinois, though smaller, bit harder. At least on that occasion.
[DOUBLEPOST=1432651998,1432651584][/DOUBLEPOST]

One bad incident ruining a dog is about a dog that is being trained for the sport not just someone's pet. If you spend thousands of dollars on a dog and plan on competing you don't want to risk killing a dogs drive or confidence.
Bite training can't be trained by the owner. This is a conflict of interest for the dog. You are teaching the dog obedience and to respect you and what you are asking of them, then turn around and ask them to attack you. This is why you need to use a helper to test the dog.

I agree, taking to the dog park a Dobe you spent a lot of money on and have high hopes and aspirations for in competition is a significant risk.

As for working with your own dog on his or her bite, I am only talking about using a tug or other object that you're not wearing. Maybe it's still not ideal, but in my opinion, it's okay. Don't a lot of dog owners play tug with their dogs? I am just talking about that, only in the process, promoting them using a nice full-mouth bite and waiting for the bite until you give the command, or otherwise let them know it's okay to go for a bite. And of course releasing crisply upon command.

 

[Doberman Gang]

Playing tug is a great way to teach obedience, full bite, targeting ect... Using a tug or ball. This is a different drive than when doing bite work. It was best explained to me that when you are working your dog on a tug/ball your dogs drive will be at a 5-6 in protection they need to amp it up to 9-10. If you teach your own dog it's protection will on reach that 5-6 level. If that makes sense. They can't amp up in defense because they don't really perceive you as a real threat so that training needs to be done by someone else. That is why we are always looking for other qualified helpers to work with our dogs. A helper that hasn't had proper training can easily injure or even kill a dog by not performing proper technique in a catch. There is a lady who trains with us who has an IPO 2 dog that has vertebrae fracture and now the dog lives on pain medication and has times when she can't hardly hold up her head. This was due to a helper not being proper trained trying to make a catch he wasn't qualified to make. As helpers we are trained to take the force of the dog and risk our own injuries before injuring a dog.


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[Doberman Gang]

Here are some long catches from day 2 AWDF championships.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10204138740729716

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[MyBuddy]

Here are some long catches from day 2 AWDF championships.

Awesome!

I'm also impressed at the strength of these men to still be standing with an 80lb weight being thrown at them! lol Wow. I thinking of watching myself doing that!

 

[Drogon]

My Schutzhund trainer, Betty Sagan, told me not to take him to the dog park. As some of you have expressed, he is too valuable to risk. My obedience trainer, Luis Vasquez, said to let him play fight until it gets too rough or if any other dog begins to dominate him. He said it is a sign of a confident puppy and if other dogs dominate him it would detract from the confidence that is needed for working sports like Ring Sport and Schutzhund.
They each have different views and they both use different training techniques. My Schutzhund trainer told me not to use a choke or pinch and just use food to lure him into doing things. My obedience trainer uses a pinch and advised me to use one also.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

That wouldn't go over very well at the dog park – letting your dog play until another dog starts to act dominant over them, then your stepping in and breaking it up. So yeah, maybe the best thing would be to avoid the dog park.

Believe me, I don't want my Dobe to get dominated by any other dog, but If I take them to the dog park I have to let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Drogon]

I agree. Even though I don't really care about what other people think and go to the dog park to benefit my dog, I can't think of a way I could stop my dog and still leave him with a positive view of the dog park. I may show him and I plan to work him so I really shouldn't risk it. I'll just have to find something else he enjoys and can get exercise.

 

[Gretchen_Red]

I'm surprised to hear a IPO trainer think like that but dobies do tend to respond well with less corrections so it's not a bad idea. Just not sure how you would keep them from pulling or running after prey only using a treat. I have found that I use a mixture of what was taught to us depending on how Gretchen responds

 

[Doberman Gang]

I know Betty she is great, her suggestions of luring is to teach the dog basic positions. Your dog is still a puppy I assume. It is not fair to correct a dog for something it hasn't learned so pinch and e-collars are not used until the dog has learned the behavior.
So have you trained at Waine's? I know Betty goes to him for training sometimes. She came last year when we were at helper certification camp.


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[salisa826]

I don't use a pinch collar during classes. Only for walks and reinforcing heeling while walking. I use treats and praise to teach skills.

 

[Gretchen_Red]

I think I misunderstood. I would NEVER teach/train with a prong, I only use it for corrections once I'm sure they've done the behavior multiple times and understand what they are doing.