Future Of American Bred Dobermans

[Dobs4ever]

Probably no better than a weak nerved conformation dog that runs from it shadow if a threat arise. But I don't know any breeder than breeds for mediocre so why would anyone assume that??? Where will the Doberman be if we breed for mediocre temperament???

Since when did conformation folks breed for true temperament???? They would have to test it to know that.

 

[Matt Vandart]

I agree with the points made. This isn't Doberman exclusive either. There are loads of breeds that have a definite split in show vs original design/work - Labs for instance have this:

English Lab

American Lab

I don't necessarily follow the breeder circuit with that breed, but I'm sure the conversations are similar. I think as long as we are okay with understanding that there will always be that difference between our breed, that it is okay to have that difference, and it's okay to have a preference... then everything should be...okay. I love the breed either way and glad that I have the right to choose which type I prefer.

I don't understand the point here ^^ we have working labs here also and they are like the second picture, in fact I think you will find most of the american working labs are from here, not hundred percent on that as fact though.

 

[Matt Vandart]

Ok, I'm not going through posting quotes. Most of this bantering is just that, banter.

Yes, I have titled my dog that you guys would have deemed my breeder a BYB on both of my dogs, Silence and Vex. They are my "ugly working dogs" as that has been stated with "malinois like drive" that no one apparently likes. However, I am quite happy my dog doesn't prance around and stand pretty for an old man or woman to tell me how my dogs LOOK. Personally, conformation is just ridiculous for me. The only place it has for me is in the Breed Survey (both UDC and ZTP) as it looks at WORKING conformation.

CRD, why couldn't the current dogs I have now not be sold to a police department or some other high-demand service??

Dogs of my breeding are NOT sold to pet homes. My mentor and I do not believe in it and know these dogs are not to be in JQ Public's hands. I feel I am preserving working heritage and guarding heritage as well as making a stable in-house dog. Perhaps I'll let the pet breeders breed the Goldens in Dobe bodies.

I do not share my opinion much on here about these subjects as I feel strongly on my opinions. I am not here to make waves, but CRD I believe you are headed into the wrong direction for our breed. If you want pretty pets, get into a different breed, please. This is not a personal attack on you, per say, but you are the loudest voice for sure on the subject, jamming your opinions down others' throats. I believe in a working dog only. Ugly and high-drive are for me.

My dogs may not make it in the beauty ring, but they are not bred for Show, they are bred to Go and they do just that. They are healthy as well.

I'm sorry if I come off abrasive, but I've had enough of "Showing and temperament tests are GOOD ENOUGH". No, it's not. Why are other breeds surpassing us in EVERY venue? Ask yourself that.

My 2 cents and I will not repost on this topic.

~Jen

It's 2 cents worth a million dorrah

 

[Rits]

I don't understand the point here ^^ we have working labs here also and they are like the second picture, in fact I think you will find most of the american working labs are from here, not hundred percent on that as fact though.

The point is about the breed type. Just like with Dobermans you'll find working and show type in labs...

 

[Rits]

Personally, I don't understand why there is even a debate. We should be striving for a breed that excels all around, conformation and workability. There is no reason we can't have both. I don't believe we are so far down the two individual branches to give up on that goal now. There are some great breeders out there who are already breeding great all around Dobermans, but unfortunately not many. I don't understand how you (collective you, not just Matt) can say breed for temperament and not workability since the whole purpose for the existence of the breed in the first place is its working ability. It has already been established that you can't go the other way either as a dog's ability to do the work properly and for many years is dictated by their conformation. We cannot allow the breed to go down the path of breeding for the pet buyer. I realize that we're missing out on a part of the market by not doing so but if it means having the breed turned into just another Lab or GSD I won't ever support that. And by that I mean both the dumbed down temperament of the pet Lab and the awful conformation of the average pet GSD. Pet-only puppies are made in almost every litter as it is, either not conformationally perfect and/or not tough enough for work, so why should we be making an effort to produce more of what will already be present?


There isn't any one perfect test out there right now. Schutzhund/IPO is great but ultimately it was made to test the GSD. I don't know enough about PP sports to speak to that. Honestly, while the Doberman was created to be a personal protection dog I consider one to have good temperament and working ability if they can compete at high levels in just about any sport. Even agility requires a certain amount of fearlessness and strong obedience. If we want to test our Dobermans properly, though we're going to have to come up with our own test. UDC's temperament tests as a requirement for some of the conformation competitions is a step in the right direction.

Beautifully said in all of the above, I feel an echo in here on a previous post of mine in this thread. We should strive for both work-ability with the conformation to back it up.

 

[DocReverto]

Probably no better than a weak nerved conformation dog that runs from it shadow if a threat arise. But I don't know any breeder than breeds for mediocre so why would anyone assume that??? Where will the Doberman be if we breed for mediocre temperament???

Since when did conformation folks breed for true temperament???? They would have to test it to know that.

So the point of shifting what we should breed for is what then? If it will be no better then what it is now.

No ones breeds for mediocrity. Its an unfortunate result that derives from chasing after an impossible mission. When you try to focus on everything, prior items your program excelled in go downhill. We see it with working breeders that switch to conformation. They lose workability. Conformation to working and they lose structure. Results keep showing us that.

Only 7 dogs in the history of our breed have ever achieved the perfect balanced dog, and that is excluding temperment and health.


Temperment and drive are unfortunately two different things.

I saw plenty of working dobes with crap temperment (afraid of their own shadow) at nationals, seminars, club events. Dogs that are pushed (when they shouldnt be) by manifesting that reaction. But we classify it as good drive and temperament. So unfortunatly a lot of these so called total doberman programs already incorporate a mediocre temperament.

Marinegeekswife im not insuating that conformation breeders are the only reputable ones. I should be more clear. Why are they considered reputable by working folks and the DPCA if they are not following the true recommendation of the breed?

The DPCA distanced themselves because that is not the future of the breed. While the UDC advertises supporting the total dog it is a club more aimed for working only breeders.

People want a healthy dog with a solid temperment. Some people want a working dog, we can maintain that small niche for those folks.

I support everything the DPCA stands for, and there is nothing in there ablut schutzhund despite our breede history.

I fully intend to breed for conformation, temperment, health, and longevity. I wish more people did on both sides, but then agaon thats just my personal belief. If we lived somewhere where i could honestly tell myself the working side of it could maintain our if everyone seotched, and that the true breed club was in support, i would absolutely breed for that. This isnt europe. We have a totally different dog with totally different issues/requirements.


"Sorry for the spelling, on a non autocorrect phone)

 

[Dobs4ever]

One thing that hasn't been mention in the discussion is structure and underjaw. The American doberman is loosing both. As conformation seeks to produce an ever more elegant sleek dog bone and underjaw are lost. You see more dogs with poor rib spring therefore lacking stamina which would allow a dog to stay in the fight longer. If you consider health I would think stamina would play a role. It is far different running around a back yard and being in an intense fight with an opponent.

The snipey heads come from the lack of underjaw and stop. So in 20 years will we have sacrificed both structure, bone and temperament??? Why should only a small # of working breeders care about correct temperament??? Conformation is the part you see - temperament should be what you see in character of the dog. It is not correct to lump hyper over the top dogs with schutzhund dogs as I have seen several hyper out of control conformation dogs which equated to no brain to work with. Regardless of where ones personal likes lie - we must put those aside as we strive to breed the correct dog - true to conformation - true to temperament and true to workability.

I do not understand what shifting we are doing if one is trying to breed correctly.

 

[Rits]

Is there another location for where the DPCA happens to not mention protection and fearlessness when describing the doberman breed? I'm not a member obviously so my only source is their website, and I constantly see "protector" "natural protector" "guardian" "fearless" being used over and over again to describe the doberman on their site.

 

[Dobs4ever]

They just had a huge debate over that very thing. A banner was produced and they changed the word - guardian to companion and the many of us went nuts. The decision was reversed but the brochure had already gone out. Whether we talk fearless, guardian, natural protector that is working drive at its best (what the dog was bred to be) and drives are what creates temperament. If one wants to change these things then one must change the temperament to match - That is why in a working breed temperament trumps conformation every time. So the believe the doberman should be a protector and personal guardian.

I think Rits what you might be asking is does the DPCA recognize the doberman as a schutzhund dog - so why isn't there a description of it - I think it is because the Schutzhund program was designed to test the temperament of the GSD - they were the first to be trained this way so they became the standard for that particular working sport. The doberman was bred for personal protection against man but because of their great versatility and desire to please us they step up to the plate. A test does not have to be perfect for us to learn from it.

As a dog goes through the WAE each station adds more pressure on the dog so the temperament can be evaluated throughout the process. The unfriendly stranger the friendly stranger, the rattling can, the gun shot, the umbrella, the tarp, the x pen and then the aggressor. At each station the dog must approach the object and at the dog fire the dog must recover quickly and move forward. I have learn far more about temperament as I watch a dog go through. Immediately following the aggressor the dog must meet the judge and show he settles right back down so that I a large part of what is confusing when someone says they dogs are wild and out of control. Then when you move it onto the field you really learn about the intricate make up of a dog. Things you will never see in any other situation unless you are actually attacked for real. It is how the dog responds in that situation that shows the ultimate temperament and the ultimate test - does the dog have the courage to forget personal safety and follow through with the direct attack. The dog must be capable of being called off or to oust. This is the highest level of obedience. How is that misunderstood to be out of control and how great and how thrilling it is to work side by side with your canine partner? It is the ultimate bond and the ultimate trust as you work together as a team.

DG and I have been working with Helio on his call out and this past weekend I have to say he blew us all away. I am just sorry that DG did not get it on film. It surprised us all and even the helper stepped out of the bind and said WHOA ...look at that. Now I can stop Helio halfway to the helper and call him off the helper. Thanks DG!!!!

 

[DocReverto]

Surprisingly I have to say i agree with you full heartedly with a few things in yotr post D4E.

American doberman heads flat out suck.

Ive always been a fan of south american dobes for their heads, and their substance. Although they definetly have their issues. Im lucky that i have a dog and a bitch with excellent heads with great underjaw.

Ill even greatly agree that bone is substantially lacking in todays NA dobermans. All things that need impovement.

 

[Silent Dobe]

I know you don't like internet debates like this, so I will just stick to clarification and answering
your questions.


Your current dogs could absolutely be used in a police/military setting, as they have that mal type drive not often seen in this breed.

An ugly working dog is not a balanced approach and will equally destroy the breed as just breeding for conformation only.
Which is much more then just looks. There are more breeders that breed for strictly conformation and temperament then working breeders. They absolutely sustain the breed here in NA. Without that aspect you would bottleneck the breed to extinction.

I'm glad your puppies don't go to pet homes. It would he inappropriate to do so.

Unfortunately there are not enough working homes to sustain this breed. There will never be enough working only homes to sustain the breed, and it's frustrating to think that the only people who can own this breed can't be pet owners.

I invite anyone who thinks conformation (AKC) is just a beauty pageant to come show with me.


I know there are a lot of working folks posting on this thread, so I get it. But we are all allowed an opinion, and we differ. Simple as that.

In my honest opinion switching this breed to working only would have catastrophic results, and there is a reason we don't do that now.

It's totally fine to have a small group of working breeders supplying that demand, but today's NA Doberman buyers typically don't want the drive seen in dogs like what you breed, but that's fine because you breed for specific puppy buyers and it works well for you. Without some form of conformation your dogs would barely be able to move.
We can thank the conformation breeders for keeping the standard, the image, and the functionality alive in our breed.

Perhaps there is a lack of DOBERMAN working homes because the slots are taken for more superior breeds of dogs. I aim to change the working world's perspective of what a real Dobermann is. They CAN work as well as the other breeds. However breeders trying to do it all will almost always fall short. I don't throw functional conformation out the window but I do not like the show build of either Am or Euro for reasons that are obvious. My breeder and I focused more on conformation this generation from both litters. Vex is better sprung in the ribs, same rear end as Si but a better tail set, head is still snipey and neck is still long.

Boris, a half brother, is built between Euro and Am. Elegant but heavier in bone and shorter and more powerful in features. But we work on faults that we see as a detriment to workability. Drive means nothing if they are a glass cannon. While I agree we cannot bottleneck the breed sometimes we need to step out of the box, try a breeding that otherwise doesn't look The most pristine (keeping health, pedigree to a point, and the betterment for temp and build in mind of course) and see what can happen. Silence came from an unorthodox (by the breed book) breeding and he's superb for a working dog and did receive an SG at UDC nationals 2012.

 

[FredC]

Here the plain and simple truth about the total doberman... It really cant exist no more so then the total human.. Every litter is going to have individual pups with individual strengths and weaknesses.. No litter is immune to this phenomena.. Therefore a breeder is presented with a challenge of matching his dogs with its prospective owners based on experience, wants and needs.. This is somewhat an answer to Rits question earlier to. I would be more prone to buy into the total litter but the total pup, pff c'mon we all strive for it why on earth wouldnt we? Its rare for any breeder to achieve more then once in a lifetime a total pup/dog.. Especially with any regularity.. Again another case of people expecting the virtually impossible from their breeders.. I don't test my puppies per say but i do spend up to 12 weeks watching, studying, taking mental notes and judging a variety of things to provide the best puppy to the best family.. For Example when i chose Albert for Jan it was based on her needs and requests in a puppy.. I knew he was gonna be featured on this forum as frequent as any other dog here so i really really had a different boy in mind based on his awesome conformation but in the end i had to do what was right by the puppy and his family and she got Albert a laid back snuggle bug.. they were not all that way Some were more conformationally sound and others were more adventurous.. Ya just have to send the right ones to the right people, so that they may get the most out of their new prospects based on their needs.

I really do laugh at the idea of the total Doberman.. Please we cant even agree what that would be, let alone try to make that happen from every puppy from every litter is a joke and ridiculously unrealistic..

 

[Dobs4ever]

Here the plain and simple truth about the total doberman... It really cant exist no more so then the total human..

That is exactly why say we there is no perfect dog so to insinuate that one venue or dog is superior to all others is laughable. Some use that as an excuse to do their own thing and some use it as a standard to strive for. But the "total Doberman" concept as UDC worked to accomplish was a dog that was strong in working temperament and sound in conformation and mental stability. No one has created the perfect conformation dog either. It seems we all agree that they are loosing both bone and substance and that temperament needs improvement . So they can't be perfect if there is a problem. They can't be superior on either side if they fall short on any level. The magic of breeding is you take what you have and strive to improve it. I believe strongly that we have things to learn form ALL dobermans - Euro - American whatever else we want to use. I love both dogs and believe we should be working to take the best for all and really strive to breed better dogs. Extremes in any breed is wrong. Fads come and go but real breeders will keep their eye on the prize and will not deviate far from their goal - the perfect dog.

 

[FredC]

the perfect dog.

I have three right now and they are as different as night and day..

I agree wholeheartedly that every breeder should breed for the absolute best most well rounded dog possible but you cant just shove a dud back where it came from and pretend we didnt produce something with less then favorable results.. Weve all seen them.. You know that ugly duckling with a big time name behind it, Or the dog you swear is just, off/not right that is a littermate of a famous well respected stud it happens to all of us regularly..

Every Euro Dobermann enthusiast on the planet knew who Gino Gomez del Citone was but half of us were/are convinced he was a disease to the Dobermann world. Im just saying to achieve a total Doberman that we will all agree is a total doberman is never going to happen..

 

[Rits]

Phew, I had a big long winded reply but I feel like I'm repeating myself and I don't want to come across as "ranting". My thoughts have been hashed out enough. I've listened to both sides, agreeing with some but for the other parts, I'm okay with agreeing to disagree. I'd like to keep good relationships no matter our opinions. I've really enjoyed this discussion! #mostinterestingtopic2014

I do want to point out that, believe it or not, the total doberman is actually already happening...The more as years go on, the more I come across breeders that are producing dogs capable of doing a bit of everything in some way. Like Jess said, this really and honestly wouldn't be all that hard to accomplish as far as time goes. I just don't think it's as unrealistic as you think it is. One thing I do think needs repeated cause I think it's been missed a number of times it's been said... total does not equal perfect.

By the way, that natural protection instinct? One of the major qualities that makes a Doberman...a Doberman? That will disappear completely if a large majority of breeders continue ignoring the working side of the doberman...My only wish is that breeders on a whole don't put too many of their eggs in one easter basket and the doberman remains a versatile and naturally protective breed.

 

[Dobs4ever]

I agree wholeheartedly that every breeder should breed for the absolute best most well rounded dog possible but you cant just shove a dud back where it came from and pretend we didnt produce something with less then favorable results.. Weve all seen them.. You know that ugly duckling with a big time name behind it, Or the dog you swear is just, off/not right that is a littermate of a famous well respected stud it happens to all of us regularly..

Not sure what you are really saying here. I hear people elude to things like this but I have never seen it backed up with a specific. Anyone can do a breeding that just does not go like planned but I do not actually know of or heard of anyone who pretends they didn't produce something less than favorable. One thing you learn in breeding is anything goes.

But I have always heard that if you breed long enough you will produce a little of everything both good and bad. That is why it is dangerous for everyone when people who have never bred trash everyone with no real life experience. Genetics can come right up and slap anyone in the face.

Each breeder has their own unique idea on how to breed the best dog and must have the freedom to pursue that vision. What is right for one breeder is not necessarily right for another. If you are going to breed for sure, not all will turn out as you want - but a dud???
To me that would mean a puppy that had no drive, no trainability and terrible conformation - roached, cow hocks, low neck set, snipey head - I mean everything is wrong with that puppy. I have not seen it yet nor among my breeder friends and contacts.

Some litters you see a wider range of differences in puppy than others especially if you do out crossing. Within the gene pool there is a wide range of genes hiding back there and that is why every once in a while you get a puppy and say where did that come from but just not sure about a dud.

Can you explain what you mean by a dud??

Then health and longevity - that is easy to say because there is only one way to prove it and that is the age the dog dies and what they die of. We have dogs that died young that produced offspring that lived well past 10 - we have dogs that lived well past 10 who produce dogs that died young. I laugh every time I read that, especially when someone has not passed 10 year in breeding with something to prove what they accomplished and much of it is honestly by sheer accident. Things can go incredibly good or they can go incredibly bad.

IF we had a crystal ball and could see into the future and know a great dog was going to die at say 5 would/should we breed that dog???? If we had an uglier dog that we could see would live to 15 would we breed that dog??? ALL dogs appear healthy when young so it is easy to believe that under the hood is good. Honestly we dont' know - it is minimum 10 years before anyone in breeding establishes any record of their own.

 

[Matt Vandart]

This is not me trying to stir up shizzle here but one thing really confuses me, alot.
Dobermans have been kicking about in existence for hundred years plus, why are we striving to improve? surely they should be the best they can be by now? Look at breeds of similar age, they are done and dusted and being maintained rather than 'improved'.
My personal take on this is they have already peaked were degenerated and now they are being mended again although in a diferent direction.

Re: Heads:
Agree with D4E that the underjaw is generally lacking, not just in american dobes though. I know this is something that is being targeted and improved in the UK anyway. However I disagree with stops, I think the tendency is going toward to much stop here, but that is my own personal preference/opinion, I prefer the vintage doberman head with shorter muzzle, very little stop, good underjaw, big muscular forehead and actually looks like a blunt wedge from the top. I believe this provides a more efficient stronger head with stronger bite. You can see a similar head in some bull lurchers and their bite is phenomenal, I know alot of 'bite' comes from the dogs headspace i.e temprament and these hunting dogs are full of gameness so maybe it is just these dogs have more fight than dobes, who knows.
Anyway, long story short, many modern dobes don't have big enough cheek arches and hence lack the muscle to generate a really strong bite when compared to dogs such as rotties, BT, GSD and Malis, you can have all the underjaw and stop in the world, if there is not the muscle to activate it, you have a weak bite.
Before I get jumped on please note I said MANY not ALL.

Having said all that, lol, I have recently decoyed for a Euro dobe with a classic euro head and his bite hurt.

 

[GennyB]

When one says your dog has poor conformation it is not an attack it is positive feedback for the breeder of said dog.

Perhaps I did not make my point. No one can say my dog has poor conformation, nor can they say he won't/can't work. Yet they will say horrible things. That's just being plain old nasty IMO.
I am a huge supporter of people getting out there and doing whatever they want to with their dogs. No matter how small, the effort should be applauded. But when people sit around bashing, it is just wrong.
The Missouri DPCA club recently held an event at Purina. I did not enter Drake because I am not a huge supporter of AKC conformation. I just went and watched. OMG! Even though I have heard it before, I was shocked. When you stand back and listen, it is really some sort of sickness these people have.

In 20 years you could breed carefully and have an amazingly well rounded breed with a good balance of conformation and working ability. Really. I'm not dreaming.

No, you are not dreaming. You have proof. River has pretty good conformation and she is a worker bee. She is a really nice dog all around, something to build on for sure.

2) Because working sports take a lot of time, money, and hard work. Showing does, too but it has the glamour factor to make it more appealing. Not everyone wants to get out in the mud, rain, snow, excessive heat to train a dog for years for one title. Those factors aren't as present in the show ring. A lot of venues are inside, in nice clothes, and in some places you can title a dog to CH in just a couple years. Do not misunderstand me, I am not talking down about the show ring, just stating facts.

Not to mention that most don't understand the working dobe. There is a fear factor with out a doubt.

 

[Rits]

This is not me trying to stir up shizzle here but one thing really confuses me, alot.
Dobermans have been kicking about in existence for hundred years plus, why are we striving to improve? surely they should be the best they can be by now? Look at breeds of similar age, they are done and dusted and being maintained rather than 'improved'.
My personal take on this is they have already peaked were degenerated and now they are being mended again although in a diferent direction

Honestly... and I see it repeated across the board from many breeders and owners even if reluctantly admitted - Doberman health is nowhere near where it should be, but is getting better in a way. Doberman's ability to do what it was bred to do and is described as, is not the best it can be, we're in fact losing that trait. Those other breeds that are maintaining, can do that because their breed has those things. Those two qualities are huge and is certainly enough reason for Doberman fanciers to continue improving the breed.

 

[Dobs4ever]

I guess I just don't get why people who have such a poor opinion of Dobermans have one let alone want to breed one. I also don't understand why someone who admits they did not get their dogs from the best breeders blame the whole breed just because their dogs are not what they wanted.

If there are breeds you feel are so superior then please go get one and enjoy it instead of just bad mouthing the Doberman.
If you dont' think a working breed should work then get a poodle or a non-sporting breed. For a large breed dog their health is no worse than any other breed. The bigger the breed the shorter the life span. Some die young, some make it to middle age and some die old. That is life. In the many many years I have been involved in Dobermans I have not see the health problems some claim. For the most part they are healthy - over vaccination is a problem.

But I work very close with MU vet school and the doctors there tell me that they are seeing a drop in DCM in our breed because breeders care and are doing a better job.