Future Of American Bred Dobermans

[Dobs4ever]

My only problem is when someone bashes me or my dog because of what I like

True - there is really nothing to be accomplished by that - It does more damage than all the AR whacos out there.

 

[Dobie Wan Knobie]

There are all different kinds of hunting dogs around here: coon dogs, squirrel dogs, dogs for running deer...and the list goes on depending on what YOU want as an owner. So it looks to me like there are several different types of Dobermans, with differing types of owners wanting them. Is one type more "right" than another? Maybe my first Dobe was a pet, the next one I wanted conformation, and then decided to get a working Doberman with a Euro bloodline the next time. Well good for me then if that is what I want, and more power to you in what you want. We should be celebrating all the styles of Doberman, and educating ourselves so we can advance the breed in whatever direction we desire, without having to deal with a barrage of insults from some other owner that doesn't like our style of Doberman. That is just crazy to have such an exclusive owner/breeder attitude. How can that be good for the breed?

I personally like all the Doberman styles I see, but like the old dog food ad song when I was a kid said.......My dog is better than your dog, my dog is better than yours. My dog is better because he eats __________, my dog is better than yours!

Peace to all Doberman owners everywhere!!!

 

[TX_dobe]

I do have to do a disclaimer that most people on this topic seem to be working breeder supports and we have been just as hard on the conformation people as they have been on us(or more). We say they have crap temperaments and they say we have crap conformation. What I believe most of us who support the working breeders are supporting keeping the breed able to do the job it was original created for. It would be like getting a sports car that has no power and handles like crap but looks cool.

 

[Rits]

I agree with the points made. This isn't Doberman exclusive either. There are loads of breeds that have a definite split in show vs original design/work - Labs for instance have this:

English Lab

American Lab

I don't necessarily follow the breeder circuit with that breed, but I'm sure the conversations are similar. I think as long as we are okay with understanding that there will always be that difference between our breed, that it is okay to have that difference, and it's okay to have a preference... then everything should be...okay. I love the breed either way and glad that I have the right to choose which type I prefer.

 

[Dobs4ever]

So it looks to me like there are several different types of Dobermans,

Dobie Wan Knobie I am glad you made that post - I would like to try to explain if possible.

There are different "breeds" of hunting and sporting dogs just as there are different breeds of working dogs there is a difference in however a difference between breeds and different types within that breed. Part of the standard that protects any breed describes "breed type" which usually refers to what makes a dog recognized as a specific breed. Our dobermans are very versatile but that does not change "breed type".

The doberman can do many different jobs but that does not mean that it changes temperament.

Within a closed gene pool you can manipulate genes to breed for any number of specific traits but all remain within the specific breed. I agree people should be able to enjoy doing whatever they choose with the own personal pet but breeders have a far great responsibility to maintain ALL breed characteristics as described in their standard. In a working breed temperament trumps all.

So the argument is not really about conformation vs working but should a working dog work???? Sadly too many breeders do not understand this. I would think all would agree that conformation should be evaluated and working ability should be tested. It is just as wrong for conformation folks to frown on working dogs as it is wrong for working folks to frown on conformation and too many seem to miss that the two should live in harmony. What gets new folks in trouble is they get a working breed and don't understand temperament or how to fulfill the "dogs" needs which are not human needs.

I do not think we argue that the conformation dogs have less than the desired temperament - pretty much everyone agrees on that. The arugment is more that they don't bother to test temperament to help try to improve it. Just go back and read the post.
The working dog side does have the ZTP which does require a conformation evaluation along with temperament.

But to put down working dogs in a working dog breed shows a serious lack of understanding of this breed. I hope that makes sense. JMHO

 

[DocReverto]

Ok, I'm not going through posting quotes. Most of this bantering is just that, banter.

Yes, I have titled my dog that you guys would have deemed my breeder a BYB on both of my dogs, Silence and Vex. They are my "ugly working dogs" as that has been stated with "malinois like drive" that no one apparently likes. However, I am quite happy my dog doesn't prance around and stand pretty for an old man or woman to tell me how my dogs LOOK. Personally, conformation is just ridiculous for me. The only place it has for me is in the Breed Survey (both UDC and ZTP) as it looks at WORKING conformation.

CRD, why couldn't the current dogs I have now not be sold to a police department or some other high-demand service??

Dogs of my breeding are NOT sold to pet homes. My mentor and I do not believe in it and know these dogs are not to be in JQ Public's hands. I feel I am preserving working heritage and guarding heritage as well as making a stable in-house dog. Perhaps I'll let the pet breeders breed the Goldens in Dobe bodies.

I do not share my opinion much on here about these subjects as I feel strongly on my opinions. I am not here to make waves, but CRD I believe you are headed into the wrong direction for our breed. If you want pretty pets, get into a different breed, please. This is not a personal attack on you, per say, but you are the loudest voice for sure on the subject, jamming your opinions down others' throats. I believe in a working dog only. Ugly and high-drive are for me.

My dogs may not make it in the beauty ring, but they are not bred for Show, they are bred to Go and they do just that. They are healthy as well.

I'm sorry if I come off abrasive, but I've had enough of "Showing and temperament tests are GOOD ENOUGH". No, it's not. Why are other breeds surpassing us in EVERY venue? Ask yourself that.

My 2 cents and I will not repost on this topic.

~Jen

I know you don't like internet debates like this, so I will just stick to clarification and answering
your questions.


Your current dogs could absolutely be used in a police/military setting, as they have that mal type drive not often seen in this breed.

An ugly working dog is not a balanced approach and will equally destroy the breed as just breeding for conformation only.
Which is much more then just looks. There are more breeders that breed for strictly conformation and temperament then working breeders. They absolutely sustain the breed here in NA. Without that aspect you would bottleneck the breed to extinction.

I'm glad your puppies don't go to pet homes. It would he inappropriate to do so.

Unfortunately there are not enough working homes to sustain this breed. There will never be enough working only homes to sustain the breed, and it's frustrating to think that the only people who can own this breed can't be pet owners.

I invite anyone who thinks conformation (AKC) is just a beauty pageant to come show with me.


I know there are a lot of working folks posting on this thread, so I get it. But we are all allowed an opinion, and we differ. Simple as that.

In my honest opinion switching this breed to working only would have catastrophic results, and there is a reason we don't do that now.

It's totally fine to have a small group of working breeders supplying that demand, but today's NA Doberman buyers typically don't want the drive seen in dogs like what you breed, but that's fine because you breed for specific puppy buyers and it works well for you. Without some form of conformation your dogs would barely be able to move.
We can thank the conformation breeders for keeping the standard, the image, and the functionality alive in our breed.

 

[DocReverto]

I understand pride, but to be so quick to insult a dog from another kennel and to just trash other dogs is just simply insane.

Unfortunately this is the big divide, and a touchy subject.

When one says your dog has poor conformation it is not an attack it is positive feedback for the breeder of said dog.

Just like if you were to say my dogs have poor workability (which they absolutely do) I would take it as personal feedback and act accordingly to where I want my program to go (not workability).

It's really difficult to accurately judge a dog with no bias, and not insult a puppy buyer. Which is why most of the time breeders use terms like (cute, hyper)

Not many people can take feedback without being insulted and thinking of it as a dedicated personal attack.

When I say so many working breeders have dogs that look like Rottweilers that is an absolute indicator that something needs to be done in your program to better your conformation.

I know I won't make a lot of friends saying it, but here goes.
I see so many working breeders breed solely for drive to the point where some of my rescues have had more functional body types then the working dogs I saw at nationals.
In a military situation these dogs wouldn't last a day.

It's all feedback that something is seriously wrong at that end of the breed.

 

[Dobs4ever]

I see so many working breeders breed solely for drive to the point where some of my rescues have had more functional body types then the working dogs I saw at nationals.
In a military situation these dogs wouldn't last a day.

If the above statement were true then you would see NO older working dogs still going strong?? I have seen several still working at 10 years of age. I have to ask in the pursuit of honesty why on your web site you say you support UDC and the total doberman yet you come here and trash it, the working dog program and working breeders- Seems deceitful to promote something you clearly don't believe in.

It would be interesting to see how many working breeders you see who breed solely for drive at AKC shows!!! You came in very late the last night of UDC Natls in Denver and spent very little time watching the working dogs. You were not there to see conformation, TT, WAC or obedience.

While you may see yourself as the end all authority on Dobermans I just don't think you are there yet. It is obvious by the way you flip flop that you are still evolving. It is one thing to carry on a discussion and another to talk about something you know so little about as you condemn everyone for anything just because you don't like it. It is true to say you did not enjoy working sports but that does not make it wrong for others nor does it make their dogs wrong. The Doberman is in the working class last time I checked.

 

[DocReverto]

If the above statement were true then you would see NO older working dogs still going strong?? I have seen several still working at 10 years of age. I have to ask in the pursuit of honesty why on your web site you say you support UDC and the total doberman yet you come here and trash it, the working dog program and working breeders- Seems deceitful to promote something you clearly don't believe in.

It would be interesting to see how many working breeders you see who breed solely for drive at AKC shows!!! You came in very late the last night of UDC Natls in Denver and spent very little time watching the working dogs. You were not there to see conformation, TT, WAC or obedience.

While you may see yourself as the end all authority on Dobermans I just don't think you are there yet. It is obvious by the way you flip flop that you are still evolving. It is one thing to carry on a discussion and another to talk about something you know so little about as you condemn everyone for anything just because you don't like it. It is true to say you did not enjoy working sports but that does not make it wrong for others nor does it make their dogs wrong. The Doberman is in the working class last time I checked.

Let me attempt to answer your questions first.

As far as my website goes. My definition of the total Doberman is quite different then yours.
No where in theDPCA standard does it call for an overly drivey dog. Temperament and conformation makes the total Doberman that so many people try to breed for.
That's my total Doberman, and according to the parent club of our breed, they say the same.

I also support the UDC, why I think the UDC fails in many categories they are still trying, unfortunately too many bad apples ruin their progress. I'll continue to support them for quite some time, but as it stands the DPCA is the club we need to follow. They have continued the breeds success, so what they do clearly works.

I have already said I support having a small niche of working breeders to contain the demand for a PP dog. That's how the UDC ties in.

By the way did you like the website? It's relatively new. Call it deceitful if you wish, but I have yet to make statements that do not correlate with eachother. The website is the same. I never change my opinion or wording to promote something that's not true.

I have never said I was the end all authority anywhere. Not here, the UDC, anywhere. There is no doubting I have a long way to go, but then again until the breed is perfect everyone has a long way to go. Including you D4E.
Can you go off the statements I presented and not your opinion of me as a human being?

It is obvious by the way you flip flop that you are still evolving. It is one thing to carry on a discussion and another to talk about something you know so little about as you condemn everyone for anything just because you don't like it.

If find these comments incredibly rude and I do take offense.
Lets focus on the dogs. That's what matters.
You have met me all of 5-6 times. So for you to formulate such an advanced viewpoint of my personally is quite disappointing.
Just like I said to you in emails. Let's take the personal disdain away from this forum, and focus on having a clean debate.

Thanks

 

[FredC]

I let this go on hoping you two would work it out of your systems but its becoming increasingly more evident that you two are only digging in.. I like and respect you both for different reasons but your putting me in a position that i'm not comfortable being in so you guys really need to figure something out.. This thread has gotten so personal that i'm not even comfortable posting to it because i don't want either of you to think i'm picking sides, and i cant be the only one..

 

[DocReverto]

I completely agree. Perhaps deleting the comments from her and I would be beneficial.

 

[Rits]

Open question to anyone: If the Doberman is a working breed, how do YOU or would YOU test that, the ability to work? What exactly is "working" to you? How would you personally go about testing stamina, agility, versatility, trainability, and even ability to naturally protect etc? If you don't test for any one of those things, why?

I'm sure I will get a variety of answers but even better because I'd like to hear it.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Both clubs have a form of temperament testing. The DPCA designed the WAE - The DV has several test throughout the working career in which the dog is tested. The first is the BH which includes a traffic portion. From there as the dog goes up the ladder there is an evaluation of temperament to be sure the dog is stable - It is one of the things the judges looks for when the competitor checks in with their dog. The ZTP has long been considered the "fit for breeding" test in the DV and UDC designed a program similar the BSA. The ZTP requires vwd and hip evaluation - the BSA requires Vwd, hip evaluation, cardio echo, cerf and thyroid in an effort to also promote good health. DPCA has nothing tied to health or temperament.

To achieve a UDC championship a dog must receive 3 CC and excellent conformation ratings as step one. Step two is they must pass an age appropriate TT at each level - puppy - youth and adult - then they must have a working title - BH, CD etc so a UDC ch is a 3 step process.

When most people speak of "working" it is referring to protection work which is why the UDC's mission statement is about protecting and preserving the working heritage of the Doberman. Their slogan is the Total Doberman meaning the dog can still work as originally bred to do.

This special breeding of a combination of genes from 4 of the different classes of dog breed is what has made the Doberman so different in may training aspects when compared to a GSD for example. The doberman approaches problems very differently so must be trained differently.

 

[Marinegeekswife]

Personally, I don't understand why there is even a debate. We should be striving for a breed that excels all around, conformation and workability. There is no reason we can't have both. I don't believe we are so far down the two individual branches to give up on that goal now. There are some great breeders out there who are already breeding great all around Dobermans, but unfortunately not many. I don't understand how you (collective you, not just Matt) can say breed for temperament and not workability since the whole purpose for the existence of the breed in the first place is its working ability. It has already been established that you can't go the other way either as a dog's ability to do the work properly and for many years is dictated by their conformation. We cannot allow the breed to go down the path of breeding for the pet buyer. I realize that we're missing out on a part of the market by not doing so but if it means having the breed turned into just another Lab or GSD I won't ever support that. And by that I mean both the dumbed down temperament of the pet Lab and the awful conformation of the average pet GSD. Pet-only puppies are made in almost every litter as it is, either not conformationally perfect and/or not tough enough for work, so why should we be making an effort to produce more of what will already be present?

Open question to anyone: If the Doberman is a working breed, how do YOU or would YOU test that, the ability to work? What exactly is "working" to you? How would you personally go about testing stamina, agility, versatility, trainability, and even ability to naturally protect etc? If you don't test for any one of those things, why?

There isn't any one perfect test out there right now. Schutzhund/IPO is great but ultimately it was made to test the GSD. I don't know enough about PP sports to speak to that. Honestly, while the Doberman was created to be a personal protection dog I consider one to have good temperament and working ability if they can compete at high levels in just about any sport. Even agility requires a certain amount of fearlessness and strong obedience. If we want to test our Dobermans properly, though we're going to have to come up with our own test. UDC's temperament tests as a requirement for some of the conformation competitions is a step in the right direction.

 

[Dobs4ever]

We cannot allow the breed to go down the path of breeding for the pet buyer

Truer words were never spoken. A pet market should not dictate how a breed should be or have any input into the standard, conformation or temperament - they do not understand why we have purebred dogs and it was not to fill their couch. That is just something that most dogs do naturally very well and we all love them for that.

I should have added that the Euro style of titling does not ever allow a dog to finish from the puppy class. A dog can earn one cc from the youth class towards the ch but the balance must be earned AFTER the dog has matured and the drives that depict temperament are there. Each level brings a more stressful situation to the dog and how the dog reacts, responds determines how it is rated for temperament.

Many feel PSA or Mondio Ring is more suited to the Doberman talents.

 

[DocReverto]

Real question for all of you .

Let's say right now, every breeder switches to have a working dog, with mediocre conformation, and mediocre workability.

Where do you expect the breed to be in let's say 20 years?

America is not Europe. For good and bad reasons.

 

[Marinegeekswife]

Truer words were never spoken. A pet market should not dictate how a breed should be or have any input into the standard, conformation or temperament - they do not understand why we have purebred dogs and it was not to fill their couch. That is just something that most dogs do naturally very well and we all love them for that.

The best example I can think of is the Dalmatian after the release of Disney's 101 Dalmatians. Look at what breeding to appease the demand and wants of the pet buying community did to that breed.

Real question for all of you .

Let's say right now, every breeder switches to have a working dog, with mediocre conformation, and mediocre workability.

Where do you expect the breed to be in let's say 20 years?

In 20 years you could breed carefully and have an amazingly well rounded breed with a good balance of conformation and working ability. Really. I'm not dreaming. It would take very careful breeding and many generations but you could do it. Being willing to sacrifice a tiny bit of working ability or conformation in one generation to strengthen something else and then try to breed back in that sacrificed trait in the next generation. But isn't that what a good progressive breeder does anyway?

 

[DocReverto]

More questions.

If that truly is the correct method to create a true Doberman why are conformation and temperament only breeders considered reputable?
Why do they outnumber working breeders?
Why does the DPCA standard not call for this type of dog anymore?

 

[DocReverto]

Don't get me wrong. Like I've said before there is absolutely a need for a small group of working breeders (like there is now) to focus on workability.

 

[Marinegeekswife]

More questions.

If that truly is the correct method to create a true Doberman why are conformation and temperament only breeders considered reputable?
Why do they outnumber working breeders?
Why does the DPCA standard not call for this type of dog anymore?

1) I don't know why you feel only show ring folks are considered reputable. That certainly isn't true.
2) Because working sports take a lot of time, money, and hard work. Showing does, too but it has the glamour factor to make it more appealing. Not everyone wants to get out in the mud, rain, snow, excessive heat to train a dog for years for one title. Those factors aren't as present in the show ring. A lot of venues are inside, in nice clothes, and in some places you can title a dog to CH in just a couple years. Do not misunderstand me, I am not talking down about the show ring, just stating facts.
3) Because the DPCA has caved to the general public. Many seem to have forgotten why the breed exists. It isn't just to look pretty, heel perfectly, and allow a stranger to handle them. You talk about temperament like it is separate from working ability. It shouldn't be.