In order for you to truly regain that working heritage of the Doberman you need to change the puppy buyer, and then change the dog.
They both are required together, and doing only one kills the breed.
Lets use DCF as a beautiful example as to what I am saying. Lets say hypothetically this breed never lost its working heritage. This board is comprised of maybe 2-4% schutzhund advocates. The rest go to pets, conformation, obedience, tracking, dock diving, etc. 96-98% of the members on this forum would be gone.
Thats just one board.
Here is another example. The DPCA (which has distanced themselves from the working side of it, and is our true parent club) has over 2000 members spread out through every state in this great country. The UDC (working club "total" doberman) has what 300?
Now apply that to our breed. There is no more simple way for me to say this other then people dont want or need our breed for this purpose anymore, but everyone wants a dog with a strong temperament, conformation (we want our dobes to look like dobes), and health with longevity.
Now here is the good news. There will most likely always be that 1-4% of people that want a "working lines" puppy. Enough to sustain programs that sacrifice certain things about dobermans to maintain an all around dog. Because no matter how you cut the cookie there is not a single working breeder in the US that consistently breeds puppies that are competitive in AKC conformation, IABCA or UKC do not count (although tons of fun). On the other hand there isnt a single conformation breeder that consistently breeds puppies that are competitive in IPO sports.
This is true. Mals have a level of intensity not seen in Dobermans, and in my honest opinion that crazy drive is what I see in some working dobes. Which drives me nuts because it is so incorrect for our dogs.
But to be fair the reason Mals are so successful in this is due to the high demand they have. They are dogs of war, police dogs, tracking dogs, even hunting dogs. They have a huge demand in everything protection. Dobermans dont, and we lost the demand long before we lost the workability. This may pour salt in the wounds for some, but again if I am being really honest there are dog breeds much better suited for protection work, and that is the number one reason we lost out to them.
I believe we lost the want before we lost the ability so to speak.
Dobermans were last used as war dogs in WW2 correct? Then perhaps police k9s through the 70's all while we maintained the workability of this breed.
Then late 70's early 80's they were phased out. GSD's came in to play, and were discovered to be an easier dog for the task. Dobermans were more difficult to train, and were seen as "one handler dogs". GSD's excelled where dobes failed. Through the late 70's early 80's that workability slowly started to decline. Although ironically enough the 80's era conformation Dobermans are my favorite. They were some of the most high quality dogs I have seen. I wish on a conformation level we could breed dogs back to that time period. Raven has a 20 year old pedigree, I intend to build off of that.
I obviously wasnt around during this time ( hell i was born in 89) but this is all from different conformation breeders I have spoken to on the history of our breed. I have a collection of doberman digests, doberman quarterlys, all sorts of publications all dating back to 81 I believe. I was very fortunate to have that passed down to me by my breeder. Its very interesting seeing the progression of our breed from then to now.
I am getting confused - first you say working dobermans are crazy like Mals and now you say Mals have a level of intensity not seen in Dobermans then that crazy drive is what one see in some working dogs. That is a lot of contradictory terms. Drive is never incorrect in dogs if they are a working breed - only nervy dogs is incorrect. Can you please tell me where you got the info that we lost the demand long before we lost workability?? Honestly the Doberman is the ONLY breed bred specifically to work with man ALL other breeds were bred to herd or protect estates or herds of animals. It is true that their that their ability to switch from handler to handler did not suit our breed. And honestly with the loss of respect for the conformation dog if we follow your reasoning they won't be worth much soon either -
Up until 1989 DPCA still supported the working sport and if you look through old DD you will see the working sport pictures right next to the conformation pictures. BSL is what AKC thought they could hide from. So how has that worked??? Not too well if you ask me. Most of the problems come from people who do not understand correct temperament so they trash it. The doberman is in the working class for a reason. They are the most all around breed alive. Work, train or show -
So you don't believe in the Euro dobermans at all???
It is far easier to cap a drive and use it for training than to try to train a deadbeat dog that just lays on the couch with little to no drive.
See my previous posts above. I explain my standpoint, but to recap just in case this isnt enough.
Dobermans are no longer true protection dogs. They haven't been for decades. I see working breeders in the US breeding extreme drive with junk temperament, and classifying it as a great temperament. Its not true. Mals excel in what they are designed to do, and they destroy the Doberman at it. Same with GSD's. Our breed is totally different, and substituting temperament for drive has catastrophic results. Like it or not temperament and drive are two totally separate things. When paired they can make an excellent IPO dog, and you can get IPO titles with just drive. IMHO on the working side of the US they have lost the temperament just as much as the conformation side. They have just substituted it for excessive drives (hard to live with dogs)
You know why conformation lacks in so many breeders on the working side in the "US"? That portion is so incredibly bottlenecked that outcrossing to a dog with nice conformation but low drive would kill their chances at getting an IPO title. So they are left with importing dogs from another country, or breeding within that bottlenecked section of our great country.
I have no issue with IPO sports. They are fun, look fun, and are another great activity with your dog. I just dont see that as the future of our breed.
I didnt know the DPCA distanced themselves from working sports in 89, but that fits my timeline pretty well. We should ask ourselves why they did that? There is a pretty good reason.
I never said I dont believe in Euro dogs. What they do over there works pretty damn well, and should be a good indicator of how we should adjust things. With that being said they have the market for true PP dogs. We dont, and we wont for quite some time if ever. I only said I dont prefer there oversized builds. I say oversized, but oversized meaning "NA" dobermans being my personal choice of normal. Im sure they consider our dogs undersized. Its a matter of style, I just dont prefer it but I can still admire the beauty in the dogs.
Hypothetically speaking here what would the game plan be? Lets say every US breeder converts to a working Doberman breeder. Fast forward 15 years, where a substantial portion of the gene pool is now filled with these dogs.
Do we have enough puppy buyers to sustain the breed? Big fat no.
How does the conformation of the dogs stack up? Pretty terrible. We have already seen where conformation goes in the US when breeding for that mythical total doberman. Which is how these venues like the IABCA make such a killing. So to be EXTREMELY fair lets say the conformation stay mediocre. You still dont have enough people that want a puppy like that. You destroy the breed.
There is no possible situation in where Dobermans do not suffer, other then keeping a few small working breeders to supply, and start focusing on solid temperaments (with mediocre drives) solid health, and solid conformation. Which is what the DPCA understands, and which is what I understand. I fully support our parent clubs decision to walk away from this before it kills our breed.
lol,, Point being ive told that joke before and next thing you know some idiot is running their trap saying i lie about my dogs having titles over that joke.. Bla i really cant be bothered by those types.. Sadly though there are for more of them then im comfortable being around so things like shows and events just dont tickle my funny bone..
