Form vs Function in the working dog

[Ravenbird]

Another from my favorite horseman, talking about horses but applies to the working breeds of dogs as well, and why so many changes in conformation absolutely diminish the working traits if these dogs are not proven in the field of their original purpose.

"To Prove It, Do It"





The man behind this page is Denny Emerson, one of the top 50 most influential horsemen of the 20th century. Since I spent way more of my years training and conditioning athletic horses, it's amazing how parallel the dog work & show world is to the horse work & show world.

Denny Emerson - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[DobieDesire]

Horses I would have LOVED to have had, and conditioned and ridden in Endurance: Too many horses/dogs, not enough time.

https://breeds.okstate.edu/horses/marwari-horses

And this one: https://breeds.okstate.edu/horses/akhal-teke-horses

Saw an Akhal-Teke/arab at an Endurance Ride decades ago, it was a GORGEOUS palomino, and his coat did shine like gold.

 

[Nordika]

Breed Standard is taking a back seat to the judging a conformation show - it has become an opinion. Like what I see as a pigeon chest others say is "well defined". What I see as "gay tail" is now somehow accepted/ignored quite often as evidence in the specials ring (class of dogs who already have won their championship title). What some are calling a "good square muzzle" I'm seeing the standard of a dry mouth totally ignored. What I read in the standard, is obviously not what the judges are reading.

The DPCA standard was last changed (regarding colors) in 1982. But the grand champions of 1982 and 2022 are quite different, despite the exact same standard. So as far as I'm concerned, these dogs (any breed) are chosen by what current fads are, stretching the standard as far as the eye and word of mouth and popularity of a look can take it.

Evolution of the Standard | DPCA

dpca.org

The Doberman standards call for a wide/broad chest with well developed forechest. A "pigeon chest" may not be easily seen from a side profile. A "pigeon chest" is characterized by a NARROW CHEST with a protruding, pointed sternum (the breastbone (manubrium) comes to a distinct point or keel-like protrusion instead of curving smoothly) rather than the desired broad, well developed/defined forechest. A "pigeon chest" dog often lacks an actual forechest and typically has straight shoulders.

A dry mouth does not describe the shape of the muzzle, the muzzle/head should form a blunt wedge. A dry mouth is just well fitting lips, i.e. they are not pendulous, hanging low, forming pockets, causing drool, etc. The head though is not heavily weighted in judging a dog, all things considered, the biggest problem in American lines is sufficient underjaw. A Doberman is considered to lack sufficient underjaw if the chin is not evident when viewed from the front, resulting in a "snipey" or pointy muzzle appearance rather than the standard blunt wedge shape. A weak or shallow underjaw is frequently correlated with smaller teeth and a weaker bite. A dog with a proper underjaw may appear to have a more square muzzle.

Hope this helps.

 

[Nordika]

And evidently one of few who specializes in working dogs but doesn't seem to mind taking the time to put together a breeding for active pet homes and using Better Bred for promised diversity. Her harder higher drive breedings always state "serious working homes only" or something like that. I've seen several of her litters like this that state active sport or pet homes, not mentioning bite sports at all.

Back to the Form to Function subject I did find a stack photo and he presents like most of her dogs, more like the "old" style, probably too "plain" or "light" for some. I don't see any fault big enough to bother me, says Mar. 2022 so he's about 3 I think. I'm sure he'd "look better" if they baited him to get off the slight posting in front, flatten his back and arch his neck a little. Some things you can't fix, these stack things would take someone more knowledgeable than me to say, but I know I see my dog with a little arch in her back sometimes, but then she will flatten out with a nice slope just looking at a squirrel.

View attachment 161171

Not sure what you mean by 'old style' but a dog can stack poorly if it's tired. I wouldn't say the dog is necessarily plain, but his carriage here lacks nobility. He's long in the body, more like a bitch, and the withers should be more pronounced in both height and width, especially in males. Overall not a bad looking dog. Kudos to those trying to have form follow function and still have a dog worthy of entering a show ring.

 

[BGpa]

Very interesting convo here by knowledgeable and frank owners, with respect for others. Thats sadly rare enough in social media it deserves a nod.

I'm just a noob but when I think "function" I think from the customer perspective (and I sort of go down the breed types used by Mr Doberman and later developers)- "what does the dog do for you", what is its job?

"Man protector", home and estate guardian, watcher/early warning, go out and tear up a wolf going after the sheep, good nose to catch and fierceness to kill rats in the barn? Paddle out and retrieve a duck shot out of the sky? Point out the grouse in the bush? Run doen and tree a coon, cougar, catch a wild hog? Search lost alive and rescue? Cadaver dog? Therapy dog? Service dog?

No judgement in any of those, (and some dont apply much )

but noting the size, shape, and working capability within the breed is fine tuned to task.

So its ok by me that the product is not uniform, because as smart and multi-functional almost "swiss army knife" capable the breed is...one dog cant do it all. And just like in some real herding dogs competitions, and FCI dutchies, and some hunting sports...they dont care about looks...its only "can that dog hunt".

I like that. Thats just my preference- the dog has a job to do as part of the family. And no disrespect to others with different preferences...but as request to someone looking for a fashion accessory- could you move on pick something else please.
Something fluffy and brainless, if its all about your ego? Whatever the latest influencer thing is- long haired frenchies? Merle xolos?

I do wish we'd see more reward for the extra work to proof in both sides, by the breed club in holding up the standard, and more health to justify the ROI by owner/handler/trainer to do that job over a long healthy life span.

I'm immensely grateful to breeders who try and do title on both sides. Thats quite an achievement, that honors the dedication to simply approach that multi-function capability.

 

[Nordika]

Very interesting convo here by knowledgeable and frank owners, with respect for others. Thats sadly rare enough in social media it deserves a nod.

I'm just a noob but when I think "function" I think from the customer perspective (and I sort of go down the breed types used by Mr Doberman and later developers)- "what does the dog do for you", what is its job?

"Man protector", home and estate guardian, watcher/early warning, go out and tear up a wolf going after the sheep, good nose to catch and fierceness to rats in the barn? Paddle out and retrieve a duck shot out of the sky? Point out the grouse in the bush? Run doen and tree a coon, cougar, catch a wild hog? Search lost alive and rescue? Cadaver dog? Therapy dog? Service dog?

No judgement in any of those, (and some dont apply much )

but noting the size, shape, and working capability within the breed is fine tuned to task.

So its ok by me that the product is not uniform, because as smart and multi-functional almost "swiss army knife" capable the breed is...one dog cant do it all.

I do wish we'd see more reward for the extra work to proof in both sides, by the breed club in holding up the standard, and more health to justify the ROI by owner/handler/trainer to do that job over a long healthy life span.

I'm immensely grateful to breeders who try and do title on both sides. Thats quite an achievement, that honors the dedication to simply approach that multi-function capability.

You might find this an interesting read:

Frank Grover on Breeding – ADPEF

adpef.org

 

[BGpa]

You might find this an interesting read:

Frank Grover on Breeding – ADPEF

adpef.org

Thank you! Bookmarked to read and digest and follow a couple of threads for context...

About ADPEF – ADPEF

adpef.org

A couple quotes stand out:
"The DPCA that I have experienced in many ways for fifty years or more has created activities for those who own Dobermans and been very innovative in making these activities interesting to see. Seldom have they been well administered because those who volunteer usually seek less for the breed’s values in the activities than for their own interests. Of all the activities of our National Club, the Futurity is for the breed’s future."
And:
"
However, the largest concern we are apt to have to face comes from the health research that all of us feel is so important. If we knit into our code of ethics acceptance of DNA tests as final, we may well destroy the breed in five to ten years.

We are dealing with a breed that came from mongrels…street dogs… and we must assume that any genetic disorder in the mongrels of central Europe in the 1890’s is in the DNA of our Doberman Pinschers. Any may emerge in tests if the assumption of the immutability of DNA stands up under more scrutiny."

This again speaks to my observation this "form follows function" debate has been a conversation in other breeds, as well in dobes but especially that repeats ...about every ten years or so...

What would Frank Grover say today, I wonder?

 

[Ravenbird]

You might find this an interesting read:

I read many things on that website years ago, I'll have to re-read this one to refresh my memory - thanks for bringing it up.

Not sure what you mean by 'old style'

The look of champions over the years. Like the other working breed comparisons from my original opening post, it seems as if many show lines are trending heavier and thicker and more compact. Their working lines don't seem to change that much. And yet the written standard is the same.
Which reminds me of a funny quip about the doberman standard requiring the dog to be square:





My point being that there are many many correct versions of the written standard, because what we visualize when reading the words can be vastly different. Not that one is "more correct" than another. Which takes me back to form & function, I really don't care if a dog has a better front or more jaw if he can prove his athleticism in IGP3 over the years and stay sound and strong. My worry is that the show dogs changing shape over the years but never working at their original job is that they are not proofing that these changes are for the better. Yes, Dobermans were "weedy" in the 70's and 80's so they added bone and substance and worked to get away from the snipey snouts. But the interesting thing is, that the working dogs, really dedicated working dogs of any breed, don't seem to waver much. Sure, changes will happen over 100 years, but the working lines in general stay more consistently like the original dog that was made to do its job.

 

[Nordika]

My point being that there are many many correct versions of the written standard, because what we visualize when reading the words can be vastly different. Not that one is "more correct" than another

I do disagree with this assessment. The Doberman standards are very detailed and exact. The angles called for, the specification of length/depth of chest/ length of foreleg, of length of bones, head, neck, the square being height equal to length. Not much is left to interpretation. It's very clear to those that know canine anatomy and structure. All these things do have an impact on the dogs ability to work. It's not a beauty pageant, it's about correct form, and when the standard calls for a square body, everything must be correct for that structure to work correctly as the natural canine structure is slightly longer than tall.

 

[Nordika]

IDC.AIAD.SIEGER Ferrofarah Gomez di Campovalano DOB 2002
SCHH1,ZTP V1A

 

[Nordika]

The AIAD for those that don't know:
The AIAD-Ch (Campione Sociale di Bellezza AIAD) has the following specific criteria, all of which must be met:

1. Working/Training Test The dog must have passed at least the Brevetto ENCI (minimum working test) or IGP1, completed in an AIAD-organized trial.

2. Selection Test: The dog must have passed the ZTP (Zuchttauglichkeitsprüfung) or the DST (Dobermann Selection Test — mandatory from January 1, 2024), also completed in an AIAD-organized test.

3. Cardiac Screening: The dog must have a positive official Echocardiographic examination and 24-hour ECG-Holter, performed by a veterinarian participating in the "Progetto Cuore di Dobermann" (Dobermann Heart Project). These cardiac checks must be done within 6 months prior to the championship event.

4. Courage Test: (Prova di Coraggio) Before being judged on conformation, the dog must pass a temperament test consisting of a surprise attack and a launched attack (Schutzhund-style defense exercises).

5. Judging: The number of male and female champions is not fixed — it is decided annually by the judges on the final ring, based on the quality of the dogs presented in the Championship Class. This is a deliberate policy to promote genetic diversity by naming multiple champions from different bloodlines each year.

6. Registration Requirement: Dogs registered in the Italian Stud Book (ROI) must have passed all the above tests in Italy and organized by the AIAD.

The title is awarded at the annual Campionato Sociale di Allevamento (Social Breeding Championship), held in conjunction with the Campionato Sociale di Bellezza.

 

[Ravenbird]

Changes are inevitable. Here's 100 years worth from the DPCA.

History of the Doberman 1897-2005 | DPCA

dpca.org

 

[Ravenbird]

I love a dog with a purpose. If conformation is simply about looks, that's fine too. I understand the standard can be achieved with different "styles" of Dobermans and I'm OK with that. What I have seen is where the standard IS exaggerated and abused and still get picked by judges which in turn encourages breeders to achieve more of that look. Examples in my first post of this discussion, with photos of the changes in several breeds. Basically I posted this to say I'd hate to see our Doberman get this far away from where they started. I see dogs in IGP that others call ugly and I know they wouldn't hold a candle in AKC shows. I see dogs with GCH titles that couldn't begin to hold their ground on an IGP field. Hard to get all the possums up one tree.

 

[JanS]

What I have seen is where the standard IS exaggerated and abused and still get picked by judges which in turn encourages breeders to achieve more of that look.

And that is what drives me insane with the breed and some other breeds as well. GSDs are a good example and many of those dogs are unable to do what they were bred for and the temperaments are getting terrible.

 

[BGpa]

5. Judging: The number of male and female champions is not fixed — it is decided annually by the judges on the final ring, based on the quality of the dogs presented in the Championship Class. This is a deliberate policy to promote genetic diversity by naming multiple champions from different bloodlines each year.

This would help with the "Majors" issue that @Rits and @Ravenbird recently discussed, correct?

BTW there were a couple posts here by an Italian breeder @dobschroeder who notes a new breed club is being formed in Germany to address a problem with corruption in judging, iirc.

So the breeders "doing it right for the benefit of the breed" are not standing down...in a variety of places....

 

[Nordika]

I love a dog with a purpose. If conformation is simply about looks, that's fine too. I understand the standard can be achieved with different "styles" of Dobermans and I'm OK with that. What I have seen is where the standard IS exaggerated and abused and still get picked by judges which in turn encourages breeders to achieve more of that look. Examples in my first post of this discussion, with photos of the changes in several breeds. Basically I posted this to say I'd hate to see our Doberman get this far away from where they started. I see dogs in IGP that others call ugly and I know they wouldn't hold a candle in AKC shows. I see dogs with GCH titles that couldn't begin to hold their ground on an IGP field. Hard to get all the possums up one tree.

I guess we're not speaking the same language. Dobermanns were not created for IGP, it's a protection sport, but it's just a sport, it's a game. Personal protection of the home and master is a very different thing, and the most important thing the average Joe wants is to know that his companion will instinctively do that job, while at the same time being compatible with family life. Npt everyone wants or needs a high drive dog, that drive is required to perform in IGP. Not very many people in the states are involved in dog sports, whatever the venue, participation has massively declined across the board. Europeans are far more active in dog sports, and the IDC is where you look for Dobermanns that have it all. So if American working Doberman breeders cannot put their dog in an AKC show, my question would be, why not? Europeans don't have a problem producing dogs that excel in IGP and conformation. The AKC Doberman standard is not that different from the FCI standard, and there is nothing in our standard that would inhibit working ability, i.e. function, their ability to protect/guard. The DPCA has at least offered WAC and WAE as a means for breeders to test their breeding dogs courage/temperament if their focus is just conformation. The AKC offers many different types and titles, OB, Tracking, Agility, etc. Buyers have a selection of breeders to choose from. I don't see any massive changes in the Doberman breed, 40 years separated, I can tell these two are the same breed, both bred to AKC standard. Just maybe it's not the show breeders that are the problem, maybe it's the sport breeders that don't care what their dogs look like, but in that case, they are the problem.

 

[Nordika]

And regarding some of the pictures in your initial post, the Rottweiler: that hideous "type" was created in Serbia. Some of those dogs have crept into bloodlines in Eastern European countries. It's not the breed. An example of American Rott

The Boxer, if I were a betting man, I'd say it was also a "type" created in Serbia. Anyway, American Boxer

That hypertype overdone heavy sagging skin Doberman...well that was created in Serbia. My word of caution would be to avoid any dog with Serbian bloodline unless it's quite old. This does seem like something that is going on in the last 20 or so years. But these aberrations are not indicative of the normal gradual changes that occur over time. The GSD is just sad, i wish I could travel back in time with a warning about the slippery slope they were heading down.

Another "type" in the Doberman is developing in SA, this is especially troubling since there has always been a back and forth between American and South American dogs. These dogs have extreme angle of neck to withers at about 90° and extreme arching of the neck, often accompanied by another fault of the forequarters too far forward so that the forelegs are under the neck as opposed to where they should be under the withers to support the weight of the core. These dogs have a resemblance to a dressage horse under bridle, with nose down. I think that's the intention, to make them look like a horse. They think this is elegance, but in reality it is very bad structurally and unsound for a canine. This is being brought in to American lines and American shows. If there's a dog that catches your eye over all the other dogs in the ring, it's likely to be a fault and extreme. Judges should know this, but they are just people too, easily distracted by flashy faults.

 

[BGpa]

Thanks @Nordika
Very interesting. Glad to know the origin on the extreme lines out of Serbia. Matches the cautions read elsewhere, and in re: hypertrope fashion in ghetto dogs lately.

The SA lines fashion for "head down to chest" look fashion reminds me of the old chain cavesson or peanut rollers used on horses for dressage/quarter horses.

From what little I have read on dobe show fashion, I dont like it.

Some very good intermixing has come from SA lines and FCI influence. Also popular sire Lex Luthor...iirc.

We can do better.

PS: anyone recall the series "The Old Man" on FX, and I think still on Netflux? Sort of boring in the last seasons but to the point:
the stars of the early shows in season one was a pair of really impressive and well trained rotts with full tail. Magnificent animals.

PODCASTS. Working: Animal Trainer Sarah Clifford on The Old Man’s Star Rottweilers

July 17, 202247 minThis week, host June Thomas talks to Sarah Clifford, an animal trainer who worked on the new FX series The Old Man, starring Jeff Bridges and some very talented rottweilers. In the interview, Sarah explains why rottweilers–instead of pit bulls or malinois–were chosen to be...

www.animalsavvy.net

Transcript - How the Rottweilers on FX’s The Old Man Were Trained to Perform for the Camera

Transcript of How the Rottweilers on FX’s The Old Man Were Trained to Perform for the Camera

slate.com

 

[Rits]

Just maybe it's not the show breeders that are the problem, maybe it's the sport breeders that don't care what their dogs look like, but in that case, they are the problem.

Thank you for saying this.

I know so many focus on show breeders and thinking its all for fashion. Its not though. The standard for every breed is written in detail for a reason. It is what makes our breeds, our breed! I never understood all the hate or criticism for show breeders while putting zero pressure on working breeders, to practically putting working breeders up on a pedestal while they completely ignore the standard! Working breeders like that are just as guilty for this divide between show and work. Did you know the standard also covers the bite and how many teeth they must have? That seems important for a working dog that a working breeder maybe wants to pay attention to? At least some working breeders are taking part in UDC so there is effort. Effort in wanting to learn, effort in wanting to do better in producing dogs bred to the standard not only in working ability but also structure. The standard also doesn't just touch on structure, but temperament too.

These to me are all important features in a working breed bred to literally live alongside and protect man. Because while you may not care for one, or two things, then the list continues to grow of what you are willing to let slide while focusing on one aspect of the doberman to the point we have something that structurally looks vastly different than the other besides having the same paint job. A person may not care now, but once you educate yourself on the standard, these differences absolutely will scream out to you.

On the flip side, I see more and more breeders, especially of my generation (millennial) wanting those ROMs, wanting to do more with their dobermans to prove they are truly a confident, fearless, obedient, and versatile breed. The tides are shifting.

 

[Ravenbird]

When I open these conversations up I am not saying ALL or EVERY. I simply state what I'm seeing. I'm seeing that the more a dog is bred for show, the less likely it is to be a top athlete of any sport. Again, refer to the photos on page 1. I'm referring to all working breeds. And I'm not saying ALL or EVERY dog.

If you have a structurally perfect Doberman titled as a GCH, but that has little drive, no boldness in the face of adversity, and literally bolts and runs away at gunfire, then yes, it literally IS a beauty contest and the dog will make a fine house pet and stud dog for the next generation of show dogs. Our own human beauty contests were on looks alone and we never saw those beauties on Jeopardy. The Olympic athletes were never judged on anything except their athletic abilities and pretty didn't make them any points on their routine.