Doberman Cross Breeding Project

[Ravenbird]

You can breed and call them Dobes, under AKC rules, you just can not show them in DPCA shows...is that correct y'all?

Are you referring to a white Doberman or a Z factor Doberman? Because there are many WZ Dobes that are Black, Red, Fawn or Blue - just as we are talking about the out crosses, just because the have a gene doesn't mean the "look like" the have the gene!

And I'm not sure if you meant "DPCA shows" only (such as the DPCA Nationals) or if you meant AKC shows. I have no idea if DPCA has control over an AKC all-breed event, but I doubt it. So quick google handed me AI answer:

 

[Ravenbird]

If you want to do some performance sports in AKC you can get a different type of registration so their points still count.

So according to the above info, the WZ registration is just fine.

It was implemented (per @BGpa's link) by DPCA to assist breeders who wanted to avoid that gene in their breeding program.

 

[Ravenbird]

If that's what is actually happening, then I'm in favor of it. I guess I just don't understand how one could "outcross" to remove DCM and then "Back breed" to get a "pure enough doberman." And how would one define, "pure enough?" I would think that there would be some permanent loss of genetic sequencing, after the outcrossing. And, would that back breeding introduce new risks of DCM? Nonetheless, as stated earlier, if it looks, walks, barks and behaves like a dobie, I'm good with it

It's hard to grasp at first, but once you understand how genetics works - plus some math - it gets a little easier. And fascinating how quickly it can be done, if one was in a hurry. Add genetic testing, temperament testing and choosing the most Doberman-like traits I can't imagine any downside to "rebuilding" the Doberman. Taking the F4 generation and letting the Purebreds have access to them for breeding and another couple of generations you absolutely could not tell. I've seen adopted dogs from a shelter that I'd swear were 100% Dobermans and the owner said they were Embarked a mix - the two that I knew, one was 50% and the other was close to 70% Dobe.

Anyway, here's an overview of how fast you get to 93.75% genetically Doberman from a 50/50 cross. I used the Gordon Setter to ask my question:




Hope this helps!

 

[DD4MSpock]

Are you referring to a white Doberman or a Z factor Doberman? Because there are many WZ Dobes that are Black, Red, Fawn or Blue - just as we are talking about the out crosses, just because the have a gene doesn't mean the "look like" the have the gene!

And I'm not sure if you meant "DPCA shows" only (such as the DPCA Nationals) or if you meant AKC shows. I have no idea if DPCA has control over an AKC all-breed event, but I doubt it. So quick google handed me AI answer:

View attachment 161881

Maybe this is part of my problem. I'm not interested in the "dog showing" world (and all the bureaucracy and competition that goes with it), although I acknowledge it is a strong one and full of passionate people. I just want my dobie as a family pet and do all the "Family pet" things with them.. maybe a little training but plenty of exercise and trick activity, Frisbee playing, etc. I want to develop that personal dog/owner relationship. Even if it turns out my dobie is a perfect "show match," I would not enter them.

I dunno why I'm so opposed to "showing." It must be a Pavlovian response to the Jon-Benet Ramsey/Honey Boo Boo tragedies or something. I honestly believe those kids were "incentivized" into it... it wasn't totally "voluntarily." I watched the B-Roll of their performances. The body language was a pure JDFR. I'm not going to live vicariously through my dog, at his/her expense, like those parents seem to have with their kids. And, not to speak ill of the dead, but Patsy Ramsey came from that culture in WVA. Makes me ponder some further thoughts in re; what happened to Jon-Benet, but I'll keep those to myself.

 

[JanS]

So according to the above info, the WZ registration is just fine.

I do believe that is true and a lot of Doberman people aren't happy about it.

I just remember at a couple AKC events that people who were there with a mixed breed for a fun performance sport were told they could get some sort of registration for points to count but I'll be darned if I can remember what it's called now.

 

[BGpa]

@JanS I looked into this awhile back:
The AKC has this for purebred but not registered dogs:

Purebred Alternative Listing (PAL)

www.akc.org

And this for cross breeds:

What Is AKC Canine Partners™?

Find out how to get started with AKC's Canine Partners Program, which is open to mixed breed dogs. Click the link for details on enrollment.

www.akc.org

 

[JanS]

And this for cross breeds:

Thank you, that's what it was. I know one of the events I was at had Fetch Dog and the Farm Dog Certification.

 

[BGpa]

So the thing about the FKC Dobe Cross Breed Project thats interesting is they have tools to measure genetic diversity as well as the recorded pedigree, to identify parentage and recorded problems to attempt to select away from inherited diseases.

This speeds things up, if I am understanding @Ravenbird - we dont have to wait for the pups to mature and be born and live awhile awaiting outcomes, for four generations. That "purely by phenotype" process would be 8+ years, at earliest correct?

I recall Greunig complaining about breeding in the black greyhound "Stella" for coat color because it took three generations to understand what you got in addition- he called "stupidity" of the Greyhound, that had to be bred out later.

I'm assuming there has been some hypothetical and computer modeled combinations based on "teh science" but until we see some of that published by the FKC or dobe breed club or the folks in charge of the project, its interesting speculation.

I wonder which university scientists might be involved? U Helsinki? Any others doing behavioral research thats quantified in dobes?

Thats the secret sauce,
the "nurture" part to go with "nature" part in genetics...

I was thinking about @Nordika question on U Virgina research on speckle analysis...
I was trying to get some idea who are the key scientists in dobe or wider dog genetic reseach, and @Ravenbird I was fooling around with the Grok AI as a search tool.

Scientists have to compete for grants, funding and of course once thats underway have to carefully guard resukts until publication.

But if you look at university puff pieces and announcements of new people hired, or projects proposed you can make guesses.

I'm just guessing there are people close to those on FKC and their Nordic Club collaboration with other breed clubs, and university folk involved...

So thats the nose work for ya, anyone who is interested who has more experience and understanding of genetics, than I.

 

[BGpa]

Hope this helps!

Yes, much better!

 

[BGpa]

@DD4MSpock I get you, and I'm where you are- healthy pet...

Breeders and competition by pedigreed dogs, in particular in conformation is how we got here- including the data...and I take DPCA's position statements on breeding for longevity and health at face value, as well as AKC "Bred for H.E.A.R.T".

Showing is not my bag either, but I give huge props to those who do it as ethical preservation breeders. And even more to the competitors in sports on working side, to build upon the original breed functions.

I'm grateful to learn more.
But I'm gonna be looking at one more big dog before I gotta downsize...

And choosing "the best dobe" if that breed meets my needs will be informed by all of this.
So many thanks to anyone who jumps into the conversation. Its hopefully useful to others in future who find this place as they search with AI...so there is some reward in that too.

 

[BGpa]

And back at ya, @Ddski5 as OP, as I forgot to add you as having questions on the process, "follow the money, follow the people"

But if you look at university puff pieces and announcements of new people hired, or projects proposed you can make guesses.

I'm just guessing there are people close to those on FKC and their Nordic Club collaboration with other breed clubs, and university folk involved...

So thats the nose work for ya, anyone who is interested

Here is an example on copper storage disease:
Morris Animal Foundation is the grantor-
And when I found the copper storage gene in Bonnies Embark, I went "down the rabbit-hole" on teh innertoobs to find Dr Hille Fiten, who was very gracious in updating me on a couple of questions by email.

Newly funded study on chronic hepatitis in Doberman Pinschers | dvm360

Funded by Morris Animal Foundation and conducted by veterinary research team at Utrecht University

www.dvm360.com

 

[Rits]

with a mixed breed

All American in the Canine Partners program for mixed breeds. PAL is for unregistered purebreds!

 

[Ravenbird]

@JanS I looked into this awhile back:
The AKC has this for purebred but not registered dogs:

But the point is, WZ dogs are already registered, as Dobermans, which they are. They are simply assigned a Z on their number to let breeders know that they are carrying an undesirable gene. This is especially helpful when they aren't expressing that gene, you can't tell by looking at them.
An example of a PAL number, a friend of mine got a GSD from a BYB, GSD X GSD parents, on site. The breeder, nor she, ever registered the dog. Then she wanted to do some obedience with him, and registered him with a PAL number. ALL dogs registered with PAL in AKC must be neutered or spayed. Anyway, she did have to submit photos that the dog looks just like a GSD (he did) amongst other things. She went on to get a CD, Trick Dog to the 3rd or 4th level and joined USCA and got his BH. All with a PAL number.

I do believe that is true and a lot of Doberman people aren't happy about it.

I'm finding some of the Doberman people are half the problem. If someone falls for a BYB puppy (albino or otherwise poorly bred, but with AKC registration), and they they want to do sports or even try a local show, they WILL find out that they have a lot to learn. They will see what other Dobes look like in the ring and that their dog won't pass. If they are honest with their thoughts, they will try to do better with their next purchased puppy, if they want to show. If they are encouraged by the other competitors and DPCA rules instead of vilified for buying BYB, they will learn, know better & do better next time. If honestly and nicely told, "but you've got a pretty nice dog, you could easily do Obedience or Rally or Barn Hunt etc etc" then they get hooked on that and still will find Dobermans as being a a great dog to own. And they will stay with the breed because they were encouraged.

.........

I see a few people of high status in the breeding circles being extremely critical of first timers who just didn't know better. Or long-timers who don't show GCH quality dogs, but enter anyway. The more I follow, the more of this I see, while they bemoan that the entries are down.

There are also more people like @BGpa and @DD4MSpock who simply want a good companion than people who want a purpose bred show or sport dog. Pet dog owners far outnumber the show and sport buyer population! Don't diss them, they won't forget personal insults about a dog they love. I see the purists not wanting this cross bred program (which they absolutely do not have to enter into if they don't want to) while asking upwards of $5000 for puppies that John Q Public can't afford for a pet. I don't have answers or even pretend to. But between the discouraging health of the breed, the high prices of puppies and the warnings of constant vet bills, the infighting of clubs... the least we can do is support an out cross program that is purposefully trying to lower the incidence of DCM.

 

[BGpa]

Thanks @JanS

Re: "a lot of people not happy about it" on WZ

One thing I find interesting about dog breeding is the evolution of breed group norms in various human groups.

Sometimes just reading back in archives or older documents on websites like DPCA is useful to understand current "dogma" pun intended of one group vs others. And how that came to be...

https://cdn.akc.org/DobermanPinscher-club-flier.pdf

It might be that as @Ravenbird points out that if "more healthy" lines can be developed by the FKC project, it will be possible to fold them in with a designation that keeps pureblood show contestants happy,
but also way for careful shoppers who value longevity over ribbons to choose among those designated dogs, and compete in other areas.
A win win that brings more new blood into the breed.

One thing I notice, to @Ravenbird point: DPCA member breeders represent only 5% of the total source of dobermans on the market (an interesting statistic all by itself and OBTW anyone have a link to the dource?)

And again, the free market WILL fill a need if supply cannot meet the consumer demand.

In Kim Klavan's book "The Dog Merchant" she quotes Mike Abrams CEO of Helen Woodward as saying only 40% of total demand is fulfilled by purebred breeders.

And that book was written before COVID.
Remember how everyone decided "well since I'm stuck at home I might as well get a dog"...

I remember talking with people at digparks after and you know ya get talking about your dog, what kind, where from etc.

I live in socal and 90% of dogs were from "tj rescues"...after awhile I thought, "man there must be no dogs left on the street" until the light bulb came on after reading that book.

Kavan went to the midwest state where most commercial breeders sell dogs to out of state brokers and puppy buyers. One admitted "40% of their orders come from rescues".

And anyone can see the previous and continuing success of designer dogs as proof, or
In working dogs where they dont breed for looks but smarts in shepherd breeds...the evolution in breeds in MWD built to purpose.
in dobes the supply from unregulated countries as more proof of demand for atypical dogs that dont conform to standards like AKC or FCI.

I'm not taking sides, just observing reality.

Humans have been breeding animals to purpose for thousands of years. Only in a relative sand speck of time within that timeline have we hoomans determined standards in horses, then dogs, to be developed to "scientifically" improve upon the past and how our various tribes of man evolve to develop our dogs in future.

So its just fascinating to me on a couple levels to observe the group dynamic as we evolve it further.

 

[Fladobe]

If a doberman was formed from other ''known'' breeds why cannot these breeds be discovered from DNA testing?

 

[BGpa]

If a doberman was formed from other ''known'' breeds why cannot these breeds be discovered from DNA testing?

Good question for Embark and Wisdom, UC Davis and Betterbred. There are a couple similar labs in Europe that do genetic testing- forget the names but if you go to the websites there may be discussion on the process.

As I recall talking to people about Embark in dog parks over the last three years it seems to me like they keep adding new labels "mexican street dog" iirc as one,

and
From reading everything on the Embark app and website
I'm inferring/Assuming as they get more data and specific breed confirmation they can refine the product.
Thats just me spitballing so anyone please correct that as needed.

 

[BGpa]

@Ravenbird I hear your passion and frustration with the sort of "not invented here" mindset in some circles.

Here is another example of how passionate dog breed enthusiasts are looking for a way out, by science:

Breeder Bios — the Flatcoat Conservation Project

www.flatcoatconservation.org

Jess Sedivy Gunderson and Xan Latta: The Flat Coat Conservation Project

Before stepping in as interim host, Jess Sedivy Gunderson joins Sarah Stremming (Cog-Dog Radio) alongside Xan Latta to share the story behind the Flatcoat Conservation Project. From the cancer crisis in Flat-Coated Retrievers to the promise of genetic rescue, this episode explores what happens...

www.podbean.com

Part of the various topics touched upon here:

Thread '"Functional Dog Breeding"'

Today at 12:06 PM

Is sort of a big catch all topic, feel free to add thoughts ideas, links.

My association of the term is for "bred to function (inc with good health" as in "total doberman" that can do it all - healthy structural conformation built to task needs in person and home guardian, family companion, sports etc.

This is a very interesting podcast that brings in very Smart experts in all that goes along with that in all breeds, with a couple items of great interest in dobes.

Have fun!

The Functional Breeding Podcast | The Functional Dog Collaborative

The Functional Breeding Podcast is about how to breed dogs for function and for health, behavioral and physical. It is brought to you by the Functional Dog Collaborative, a non-profit organization founded to support the ethical breeding of healthy, behavio...

functionalbreeding.podbean.com

• BGpa
• Replies: 0
• Forum: Doberman Talk and Discussions

 

[DD4MSpock]

If a doberman was formed from other ''known'' breeds why cannot these breeds be discovered from DNA testing?

It's sad that Karl Friedrich did not leave any significant records as to his breeding formula. Otherwise, we might be able to do that.

 

[JanS]

Our trainer said that Beaucerons were part of the original makeup of a Doberman way back when. It makes me wonder if one were to breed a Doberman to a Beauceron what the genetic testing would say.