Doberman Cross Breeding Project

[Ravenbird]

You can breed and call them Dobes, under AKC rules, you just can not show them in DPCA shows...is that correct y'all?

Are you referring to a white Doberman or a Z factor Doberman? Because there are many WZ Dobes that are Black, Red, Fawn or Blue - just as we are talking about the out crosses, just because the have a gene doesn't mean the "look like" the have the gene!

And I'm not sure if you meant "DPCA shows" only (such as the DPCA Nationals) or if you meant AKC shows. I have no idea if DPCA has control over an AKC all-breed event, but I doubt it. So quick google handed me AI answer:

 

[Ravenbird]

If you want to do some performance sports in AKC you can get a different type of registration so their points still count.

So according to the above info, the WZ registration is just fine.

It was implemented (per @BGpa's link) by DPCA to assist breeders who wanted to avoid that gene in their breeding program.

 

[Ravenbird]

If that's what is actually happening, then I'm in favor of it. I guess I just don't understand how one could "outcross" to remove DCM and then "Back breed" to get a "pure enough doberman." And how would one define, "pure enough?" I would think that there would be some permanent loss of genetic sequencing, after the outcrossing. And, would that back breeding introduce new risks of DCM? Nonetheless, as stated earlier, if it looks, walks, barks and behaves like a dobie, I'm good with it

It's hard to grasp at first, but once you understand how genetics works - plus some math - it gets a little easier. And fascinating how quickly it can be done, if one was in a hurry. Add genetic testing, temperament testing and choosing the most Doberman-like traits I can't imagine any downside to "rebuilding" the Doberman. Taking the F4 generation and letting the Purebreds have access to them for breeding and another couple of generations you absolutely could not tell. I've seen adopted dogs from a shelter that I'd swear were 100% Dobermans and the owner said they were Embarked a mix - the two that I knew, one was 50% and the other was close to 70% Dobe.

Anyway, here's an overview of how fast you get to 93.75% genetically Doberman from a 50/50 cross. I used the Gordon Setter to ask my question:




Hope this helps!

 

[DD4MSpock]

Are you referring to a white Doberman or a Z factor Doberman? Because there are many WZ Dobes that are Black, Red, Fawn or Blue - just as we are talking about the out crosses, just because the have a gene doesn't mean the "look like" the have the gene!

And I'm not sure if you meant "DPCA shows" only (such as the DPCA Nationals) or if you meant AKC shows. I have no idea if DPCA has control over an AKC all-breed event, but I doubt it. So quick google handed me AI answer:

View attachment 161881

Maybe this is part of my problem. I'm not interested in the "dog showing" world (and all the bureaucracy and competition that goes with it), although I acknowledge it is a strong one and full of passionate people. I just want my dobie as a family pet and do all the "Family pet" things with them.. maybe a little training but plenty of exercise and trick activity, Frisbee playing, etc. I want to develop that personal dog/owner relationship. Even if it turns out my dobie is a perfect "show match," I would not enter them.

I dunno why I'm so opposed to "showing." It must be a Pavlovian response to the Jon-Benet Ramsey/Honey Boo Boo tragedies or something. I honestly believe those kids were "incentivized" into it... it wasn't totally "voluntarily." I watched the B-Roll of their performances. The body language was a pure JDFR. I'm not going to live vicariously through my dog, at his/her expense, like those parents seem to have with their kids. And, not to speak ill of the dead, but Patsy Ramsey came from that culture in WVA. Makes me ponder some further thoughts in re; what happened to Jon-Benet, but I'll keep those to myself.

 

[JanS]

So according to the above info, the WZ registration is just fine.

I do believe that is true and a lot of Doberman people aren't happy about it.

I just remember at a couple AKC events that people who were there with a mixed breed for a fun performance sport were told they could get some sort of registration for points to count but I'll be darned if I can remember what it's called now.

 

[BGpa]

@JanS I looked into this awhile back:
The AKC has this for purebred but not registered dogs:

Purebred Alternative Listing (PAL)

www.akc.org

And this for cross breeds:

What Is AKC Canine Partners™?

Find out how to get started with AKC's Canine Partners Program, which is open to mixed breed dogs. Click the link for details on enrollment.

www.akc.org

 

[JanS]

And this for cross breeds:

Thank you, that's what it was. I know one of the events I was at had Fetch Dog and the Farm Dog Certification.

 

[BGpa]

So the thing about the FKC Dobe Cross Breed Project thats interesting is they have tools to measure genetic diversity as well as the recorded pedigree, to identify parentage and recorded problems to attempt to select away from inherited diseases.

This speeds things up, if I am understanding @Ravenbird - we dont have to wait for the pups to mature and be born and live awhile awaiting outcomes, for four generations. That "purely by phenotype" process would be 8+ years, at earliest correct?

I recall Greunig complaining about breeding in the black greyhound "Stella" for coat color because it took three generations to understand what you got in addition- he called "stupidity" of the Greyhound, that had to be bred out later.

I'm assuming there has been some hypothetical and computer modeled combinations based on "teh science" but until we see some of that published by the FKC or dobe breed club or the folks in charge of the project, its interesting speculation.

I wonder which university scientists might be involved? U Helsinki? Any others doing behavioral research thats quantified in dobes?

Thats the secret sauce,
the "nurture" part to go with "nature" part in genetics...

I was thinking about @Nordika question on U Virgina research on speckle analysis...
I was trying to get some idea who are the key scientists in dobe or wider dog genetic reseach, and @Ravenbird I was fooling around with the Grok AI as a search tool.

Scientists have to compete for grants, funding and of course once thats underway have to carefully guard resukts until publication.

But if you look at university puff pieces and announcements of new people hired, or projects proposed you can make guesses.

I'm just guessing there are people close to those on FKC and their Nordic Club collaboration with other breed clubs, and university folk involved...

So thats the nose work for ya, anyone who is interested who has more experience and understanding of genetics, than I.

 

[BGpa]

Hope this helps!

Yes, much better!

 

[BGpa]

@DD4MSpock I get you, and I'm where you are- healthy pet...

Breeders and competition by pedigreed dogs, in particular in conformation is how we got here- including the data...and I take DPCA's position statements on breeding for longevity and health at face value, as well as AKC "Bred for H.E.A.R.T".

Showing is not my bag either, but I give huge props to those who do it as ethical preservation breeders. And even more to the competitors in sports on working side, to build upon the original breed functions.

I'm grateful to learn more.
But I'm gonna be looking at one more big dog before I gotta downsize...

And choosing "the best dobe" if that breed meets my needs will be informed by all of this.
So many thanks to anyone who jumps into the conversation. Its hopefully useful to others in future who find this place as they search with AI...so there is some reward in that too.

 

[BGpa]

And back at ya, @Ddski5 as OP, as I forgot to add you as having questions on the process, "follow the money, follow the people"

But if you look at university puff pieces and announcements of new people hired, or projects proposed you can make guesses.

I'm just guessing there are people close to those on FKC and their Nordic Club collaboration with other breed clubs, and university folk involved...

So thats the nose work for ya, anyone who is interested

Here is an example on copper storage disease:
Morris Animal Foundation is the grantor-
And when I found the copper storage gene in Bonnies Embark, I went "down the rabbit-hole" on teh innertoobs to find Dr Hille Fiten, who was very gracious in updating me on a couple of questions by email.

Newly funded study on chronic hepatitis in Doberman Pinschers | dvm360

Funded by Morris Animal Foundation and conducted by veterinary research team at Utrecht University

www.dvm360.com