Dobequest & DPCA

[Ravenbird]

With the recent discussion of breeders trying to do their best to help the health of the Doberman breed by being transparent with the information they have and reporting the continuous health testing of breeding pairs, and using Dobequest as a research tool...

What would happen if it were made mandatory to update all tests yearly on breeding stock. What about a box for COI? Copper storage? What about required COD verification? Is this asking too much of breeders? A DNA test is done anyway and includes all these things in the package, so what trouble is it to add it to the info on Dobequest? Actually I'm pretty sure the DPCA would not go for mandatory, but what if health conscious breeders themselves started adding more info to up the ante on other breeders? Maybe John Q Public would see more published health tests and ask another breeder "say, I'm seeing Copper Storage listed now, what is your dog testing on this?" or "I'm looking for more diversity, can you get a predicted COI on your expected litter?"

I've always said that the health of this breed is in the hands of the buyer, not the breeder. If we, as buyers, insist on this kind of information then maybe it could become the new level of reputable breeders. Honesty and transparency are the requirements. I DO understand that with every test in good order there is still no guarantee of a long-lived puppy. I DO understand that every living dog is going to have genetic markers for various things and we cannot throw away a good dog because of that. But you can be conscious of picking the mate for that dog. Choose not to double up on sameness. The more information we have the more we can put together a longer life for the Doberman breed.

 

[Two Dobes]

I love all your ideas!

 

[JanS]

What about required COD verification? Is this asking too much of breeders? A DNA test is done anyway and includes all these things in the package, so what trouble is it to add it to the info on Dobequest? Actually I'm pretty sure the DPCA would not go for mandatory, but what if health conscious breeders themselves started adding more info to up the ante on other breeders?

I agree that it should be verifiable when they enter the info since it's too easy to put whatever sounds good down.

what if health conscious breeders themselves started adding more info to up the ante on other breeders?

I think you can add the links to verify it and it's only an asset when they do.
This is our dogs sire and she does have the links to Embark and OFA certification so it can be done.

Dobequest:Dog Profile Page

 

[BGpa]

With the recent discussion of breeders trying to do their best to help the health of the Doberman breed by being transparent with the information they have and reporting the continuous health testing of breeding pairs, and using Dobequest as a research tool...

What would happen if it were made mandatory to update all tests yearly on breeding stock. What about a box for COI? Copper storage? What about required COD verification? Is this asking too much of breeders? A DNA test is done anyway and includes all these things in the package, so what trouble is it to add it to the info on Dobequest? Actually I'm pretty sure the DPCA would not go for mandatory, but what if health conscious breeders themselves started adding more info to up the ante on other breeders? Maybe John Q Public would see more published health tests and ask another breeder "say, I'm seeing Copper Storage listed now, what is your dog testing on this?" or "I'm looking for more diversity, can you get a predicted COI on your expected litter?"

I've always said that the health of this breed is in the hands of the buyer, not the breeder. If we, as buyers, insist on this kind of information then maybe it could become the new level of reputable breeders. Honesty and transparency are the requirements. I DO understand that with every test in good order there is still no guarantee of a long-lived puppy. I DO understand that every living dog is going to have genetic markers for various things and we cannot throw away a good dog because of that. But you can be conscious of picking the mate for that dog. Choose not to double up on sameness. The more information we have the more we can put together a longer life for the Doberman breed.

"I've always said that the health of this breed is in the hands of the buyer, not the breeder. If we, as buyers, insist on this kind of information then maybe it could become the new level of reputable breeders."

I remember from a previous life and marketing classes for MBA..."the market will fill an unmet need, or you can create it" in the mind in the consumer...

I'm deferring to the breeders here and ling timd owners who are dpca club members...

If DPCA really walked the walk then Dobiequest would already have it, or be funded...why not? What better pedigree tools exist? Its a jumble of closed systems that are ripe to be combined by AI if some whiz dara set kid isnt on it already...

And all the virtue signaling on "ethical-peservation-blah blah blah" then those things you suggest @Ravenbird would be obviously supported and mandated.

In any closed system, you only need look at the people and the money, to examine whats in it for them.

I hope I am not coming across as finger pointing or bitter...i dont have a dog in this fight, so dont care...just pointing out this conversation has been going on for 20 years...see OPEN LETTER post here and at the other webforum...

It aint breed health, I am sad to say.
As one long time poster and breeder has pointed out (here or the other webforum)...

The customer wanted a scary looking and elegant show pony that was cuddly on the couch...so that's what we have.

Want to change that? Create a need in the mind of the consumer...sorry to say its working for all the hypertrope ghetto dogs competing for biggest baddest dog with girl's in spandex on yoytube and tiktok...

I think the chances in recovering the breed in working lines is long gone. See Mals jumping in trees etc, movies etc.

Things change and the rate of change is accelerating exponentially.

See the history of UDC springing up when DPCA didnt get it, and AKCs too late rotation to include working philosophy...

Its probably too late for this breed, and anyone paying attention to consumer habits especially on social media will agree. Dogs are fashion accesories now.

Best book on marketing and how the actual dig market works is The Dog Merchants by Kim Kavan. That was before COVID btw.

Read "Bowling Alone" for hobbyists and the future.

The good news is growing interest outside the stale captive market of AKC and closed stud books is booming. All kinds of fun dog sport is springing up and you dont have to pay AKC to play...

I dont like the idea of out of control designer dogs but it is what it is...the market has spoken, and see rescues that are fronts for brokers and transporters buying the 40% of auction markets for big operators in MO, and elsewhere...that are rescues requesting designer dogs to otder...

The ethical preservation breeders of all purebred dogs simply cannot keep up with buyer demand...

I'm following what the smart young people are doing at the nexus of science and behavior...

Google search Dr Sophie Liu...
Embark, etc
Dukes collab at Canine U for most wise most healthy SD breeding...what Netlix "The Mind of a Dog" or read Dr Hare's book...

This is just me spitballing here, and not black pilling just total out of the box, based on my tiny soda straw noob look at dog world so far, so feel free to comment of course. I have zero credibility in actual experience in breeding, showing, working...just a reader is all.

Whats the two laws of physics in nature again?
Embrace the entropy...

 

[Ravenbird]

All kinds of fun dog sport is springing up and you dont have to pay AKC to play...

Most competitive dog sports are AKC trials, at least in my area, and you do have to have an AKC number for your dog. Yes, you can get a number for a cross breed, shelter dog, mutt, or a purebred with no papers with the one stipulation that it must be spayed or neutered. With proven studies that this should be put off until at least 2 years kind of puts a damper on it for purpose bred cross breeds.

The customer wanted a scary looking and elegant show pony that was cuddly on the couch...so that's what we have.

That's what I meant when I said the buyers have ALL the power to change things. It's the customers who created a demand for Dane-headed 120 pound Dobermans. I'm just saying if you want a lower COI, don't pay $5k for a puppy who has a common ancestor 5 times in 4 generations.

Its probably too late for this breed, and anyone paying attention to consumer habits especially on social media will agree. Dogs are fashion accesories now.

Not just this breed, but ALL breeds. The working dog breeds almost all have two distinct lines now, show and working. UDC having the idea of the total Doberman is a good idea, but so far the "mixes" are not what serious show people want nor what serious working-dog people want.

If DPCA really walked the walk then Dobiequest would already have it, or be funded...why not? What better pedigree tools exist?

The pedigree.ru site is the best layout for pedigree info. And you don't have to "belong" to enter your info from what I understand. The fact that Dobequest can't accept info from anyone except a member is insane. If the dog is AKC then there shouldn't be any discrepancies that the dog exists. Like you said databases will take over once the system recognizes a name or number. They can have locks in place so that nobody can change any dogs info. OR better yet, AKC should be the ruling factor on database. I should start a separate thread on the Jockey Club and how the Thoroughbred registry works. It would blow your mind.

I hope I am not coming across as finger pointing or bitter...i dont have a dog in this fight, so dont care...just pointing out this conversation has been going on for 20 years

I'm to the point where I feel like not finger pointing is costing the Doberman its life. I'm not pointing at any individuals, I'm pointing at the DPCA for no longer being about the dogs well being, for not standing up and INSISTING on raising the bar for healthier dogs and lower COIs, for building a more exclusive club to weed out the "plain folks" and not admitting (much less addressing) that the breed is dying in more ways than one.

 

[GennyB]

Until there is a more dependable system for researching pedigrees there is a simple thing you can do. Search dobequest by kennel name. If that kennel has dogs with no COD listed that's a red flag for me.
Breeders have excuse after excuse why they don't have time. Well I call BS! That is part of the job. A breeder has a responsibility to inform a potential buyer plain and simple! They should also be able to produce proof if asked.
I know no one wants to hear it, but breeders don't want to admit to losing a dog to DCM because it can destroy a breeding program. But for me it's a bit hokie if a breeder has been in the business for decades and claims they haven't.

 

[BGpa]

Until there is a more dependable system for researching pedigrees there is a simple thing you can do. Search dobequest by kennel name. If that kennel has dogs with no COD listed that's a red flag for me.
Breeders have excuse after excuse why they don't have time. Well I call BS! That is part of the job. A breeder has a responsibility to inform a potential buyer plain and simple! They should also be able to produce proof if asked.
I know no one wants to hear it, but breeders don't want to admit to losing a dog to DCM because it can destroy a breeding program. But for me it's a bit hokie if a breeder has been in the business for decades and claims they haven't.

Thanks, @GennyB thats a very practical tip, and I agree its a worthy filter. Lets call it the "informed ethical buyer standard" to brand it...

Step 1: elminate any breeder without COD listed, every dog.

That may sound brutally efficient but it goes to yours and @Ravenbird point- we are the market, and if we define the need, then bona fide sellers will step up, and owners need an incentive to report too...what should be the incentive?

Whats next?
I accept some dogs will die of DCM, its ludicrous to think otherwise. Its also true that per that frontier study that some dogs dont get it, or die of something else in meantime.

So what IS a valid filter? Forget DNA markers...
2. Echo and holter clear both sides, how many years, how many generations back?

What other go/no-go filters in health are realistic and findable in dobiequest?

3. Cross check for accuracy.
How easy is dobiequest to read, and how complete- should one be double checking vs other databases? Working-dog, pedigree-dog.ru? Other?

Is there a good paper based or better open source app one can use to merge pedigrees and fill in missing data, after contacting breeders, and how to compare on some weighted value?

4. "Breeder advanced mgmt for diversity"
Asking again- any breeders here use Betterbred for Expected Breeding Value that uses UCDavis VGL Canine Diversity test?

Is that a useful overlay or final sort on the dobiequest sorted lists?

5. Anything else? Copper Disease? DNA marker? Liver tests and values annually?

6. Thyroid is a problem but only above avg when spayed, correct?

7. Other: OFA already does hips, elbows, vWD, Cardio advanced, eyes, DINGS...

What else?

Intellectually this shouldnt be hard to create a simple table or spreadsheet to rack and stack by ones own priority, to assign a "heath and diversity" score to a litter and then rank breeders for number of litters applied over time.

Is there a database person here fooling with AI to make it easy? Know anyone?

Hmmm.

After this- then I'd be looking for temperament, drive, early learning training, CBARQ etc?
Measured in each dog in line line by third party assessment:WAE/ATT/BH/ZTP
Proofed by title, CGC, obedience, working, ROM as a bare Minimum

And then for looks- you need to "finish" to get ROM, right?

But one could easily pivot that table with tools to match preference, or downgrade some.

Is all that TOO HARD? At what point is the median- 50% of all DPCA dogs, as the high quality cut?

When does it hit "unicorn" in US showdogs, for example?

 

[remy]

And then for looks- you need to "finish" to get ROM, right?

But one could easily pivot that table with tools to match preference, or downgrade some.

Yes, in order for a Doberman to earn the Register of Merit they need an AKC conformation championship, a qualifying working title, and to have passed the Working Aptitude Evaluation.

Is all that TOO HARD? At what point is the median- 50% of all DPCA dogs, as the high quality cut?

It’s definitely not impossible, but there aren’t many litters where both the sire and the dam are ROMs. Although that would be my dream pairing too lol.

According to the numbers here, there have been 1,266 Doberman who’ve earned their ROMs between 1977 and 2025. 60 were earned in 2025, 26 in 2024, 46 in 2023, etc…

 

[remy]

What about a box for COI? Copper storage?

I’m not sure what exactly they are adding, but I saw this on the Dobequest homepage recently. I know there is now an area to directly link the dog’s OFA profile, perhaps they could do that for Embark and other things like BetterBred as well.It’s not health related, but something else I wish people would do more is list ALL offspring, regardless if they are show or pet quality. It would be nice if every dog had a photo uploaded. Even if it was just an 8 week old stack (then updated in the future for show prospects).

Ideally the breeder or owner would update the profile to reflect titles earned, any health conditions, year of death, etc… Again, regardless if the dog was a pet, show prospect, performance prospect, etc…

I think that would be a great way to get the full picture of a pedigree, not just the cherry picked version.

 

[Ravenbird]

Step 1: elminate any breeder without COD listed, every dog

I wouldn't use the word eliminate - there are valid reasons for some exceptions. And every dog they bred? or every dog they produced? You have to draw a line on where the responsibility ends. Dogs change hands, like a retired breeder goes to a pet home, then aren't contacted when the dog dies, etc etc. But yes, breeders should be vigilant to list COD on their breeding stock and their offspring that they kept. Also, we go back to my other complaint: If you don't belong to DPCA you can't list your info! Breeders ARE busy, now they have to list everything on every puppy they sell, whether for a pet or show or breeding prospect?

2. Echo and holter clear both sides, how many years, how many generations back?

This is known information to every responsible breeder to have within a year of mating, but I see all the time on Dobequest lack of updates, even though they may have reported it on a recent breeding (legitimately, not falsifying) - so again, it takes 10 minutes to go to your dogs Dobequest page and update the heart health, but many do not even when they have the info! How many generations back? Well, these were tests that have not always been widely available and only recently widely demanded as a pre-breeding health test.

"Breeder advanced mgmt for diversity"
Asking again- any breeders here use Betterbred for Expected Breeding Value that uses UCDavis VGL Canine Diversity test?

Most show breeders are not looking hard at diversity because they are breeding for an exact "look" and when they find it they want to cling to that line, not diversify. They work for years to get a certain look, they are not going to cross over to a dog that doesn't align with what they are looking for in the show ring. Can say the same for working dogs too - they get the IGP3 champion they always dreamed of they aren't going to diversify and breed to a show champion. Good dogs will result, but probably not excel at either venue. Breeders want to excel at what they do.

this shouldnt be hard to create a simple table or spreadsheet to rack and stack by ones own priority, to assign a "heath and diversity" score to a litter and then rank breeders for number of litters applied over time.

Is there a database person here fooling with AI to make it easy?

No AI is needed. Thoroughbred horses have near-complete records (breedings, foals, race records - not health) since the 1800's. Collecting facts is the problem, not reporting it.

After this- then I'd be looking for temperament, drive, early learning training, CBARQ etc?
Measured in each dog in line line by third party assessment:WAE/ATT/BH/ZTP
Proofed by title, CGC, obedience, working, ROM as a bare Minimum

And then for looks- you need to "finish" to get ROM, right?

Now you're getting into Unicorn territory

I have looked and looked and looked at recent AKC GCH pedigrees and if Dobequest is accurate with titles, in a 4 generation pedigree their might be 3 or 4 dogs with ANY titles after their name. There are certain kennels that produce active dogs that have CH show dogs but most do not. The one WAE I went to in person the dogs that did not pass were almost all due to gun shyness and boogie man shyness. These dogs would have done fine at an all breed temperament test such as the AKC TT. It was the Doberman boldness that was lacking. That *can* be developed to a certain extent with training, but more desirable to be instinctive.

You will have to concentrate on what is most important to you and the next puppy in your life. Set out to look for that and don't compromise.

What I'm saying, I'll say it like they did in Arkansas: You can't get all your possums up one tree.

 

[Ravenbird]

According to the numbers here, there have been 1,266 Doberman who’ve earned their ROMs between 1977 and 2025. 60 were earned in 2025, 26 in 2024, 46 in 2023, etc…

Thanks for this report. It shows that it's not common, but it IS attainable if you work at it! I think the AKC CH is probably the most difficult.

Meaning that there are many talented dogs out there that are perfectly good as healthy, sound athletes but don't fit the demands of upper show world. Nor is it favorable to win when you are an owner handler. Watching just a few of you from DCF show dozens of times for years and not get the coveted CH tells me that it is near impossible for a sport dog without popular GCH line breeding to attain this. I'll have to go to the link but I'm guessing most are show dogs who get a sport title or WAC to complete their ROM, not so much multi-titled sport dogs who enter the show world.

I’m not sure what exactly they are adding, but I saw this on the Dobequest homepage recently. I know there is now an area to directly link the dog’s OFA profile, perhaps they could do that for Embark and other things like BetterBred as well.

That's a start for sure! I think that must be what @JanS was referring to?

Every little bit helps - especially those breeders who jump on it and let it be known that this is the direction that buyers are looking for.

 

[Ravenbird]

It’s not health related, but something else I wish people would do more is list ALL offspring, regardless if they are show or pet quality. It would be nice if every dog had a photo uploaded. Even if it was just an 8 week old stack (then updated in the future for show prospects).

Ideally the breeder or owner would update the profile to reflect titles earned, any health conditions, year of death, etc… Again, regardless if the dog was a pet, show prospect, performance prospect, etc…

I think that would be a great way to get the full picture of a pedigree, not just the cherry picked version.

It will take me a while to put stuff together for a thread, but this is exactly what I'm referring to with TB racehorses - it is done by the club, not the owners and has been since the breed was developed. It's not impossible to start late, but the record keeping went in the toilet when AKC quit doing breed reports. Do they still keep breed records and just not report them? Do they turn them over to the breed club? Why are they no longer publishing the reports of all breeds?

 

[BGpa]

Thanks GennyB.

I'm working on a simple checklist for what to prioritize, as one buyer for example...

Rather than go way OT on this thread I'll start another, to kick around as a template for anyone starting a search...I'll need to save as an wasy to open file in say table format, in word or a spreadsheet. But before I do, has anyone already done so and has something saved here or to share?

Some text to see my thinking:

How to Use This Table
• Step 1: Search Dobequest by kennel name—if COD is missing across dogs, stop there (as suggested in the thread).
• Step 2: Cross-check health/diversity data on OFA, Embark, pedigree.ru, or BetterBred for accuracy and depth.
• Step 3: Assign priorities (e.g., weight COD/cardiac highest for health; COI for longevity/diversity; temperament for character).
• Step 4: Build a personal spreadsheet to score litters/breeders (e.g., points for clears across generations, low COI, verified titles) and rank them over time.
This aligns with the thread’s emphasis: buyers drive change by demanding verifiable info, raising the bar for “reputable” breeders. No system guarantees perfect health (e.g., DCM can still occur), but more data + conscious mate selection improves odds for longer-lived, healthier Dobermans. If you’re researching a specific breeder or litter, start with these filters!

 

[JanS]

I'll need to save as an wasy to open file in say table format, in word or a spreadsheet.

I'm not sure if you mean this but you can insert a table using the option I have highlighted here.

 

[Ravenbird]

Instead of a new thread on horses, I'm going to put just a few samples here, because this thread IS about databases to do research on our breed and how it "could" be done. @remy specifically said how helpful it would be to see all offspring entered. Once again, it gets to a certain point where the registry can only do so much, then the owners have to submit information to be complete.

Using the Jockey Club - the official registrar for the Thoroughbred here are just a few screenshots of what they record and is publicly accessible:

When you breed a mare to a stallion, both parties send in a report at the end of the year otherwise the resulting foal is not eligible to be registered. The next year there is a report from the mare owner called a Live Foal report. If the mare did not take, and no foal or a dead foal resulted then that is recorded. This breeding stats report also gives you an idea of the success rate of the stallion - horses are notoriously low in successful percentages from breeding to live foal. You also could easily see who the "popular sires" are by numbers of mares bred.





This is the NA Registered Foal Crop by year. Simply enough the numbers of live foals born that year. From 40,000 to 17,000 since 1990 tells you how the industry has collapsed in terms of popularity due to many reasons. If you looked at these numbers wouldn't you think twice about investing in a breeding operation? The people who live, breathe and are passionate will continue on, but it is not easy. How interesting it would be to see the dog breeds AKC numbers by year?






This is a Report of Mares Bred - the reports submitted by the stallion owners. What would you find helpful in a year end report like this for dogs? On Dobequest we might see 30 offspring listed for a sire, but in reality he might have produced 100 puppies. Are they pets, performance dogs, all neutered & spayed? What if you liked the dog but it was across the country and you wanted to know if he had a son in your state? This is also a way to use lines that are similar to a "popular sire" by using a son that is very similar but wasn't shown or campaigned - and it adds some diversity.




I do realize that this is somewhat Apples and Oranges - horses have 0 or 1 offspring from a mating the next year, dogs have 0 - 15(!) a couple of months later. But it IS as easy as reporting the stats to the registry AND to the breed club for permanent statistics. I'm not a breeder so I don't know for sure, but I'm *pretty sure* AKC has no idea if a dog is mated with 5 bitches a year or 15. They only know when a bitch owner reports puppies? Open to corrections, I don't have time this morning to go look.

This is only the Jockey Clubs registry - most anything you click on has more links to go deeper.

Then there is the stallion registry from the Bloodhorse. Here's a sample of information available if you want to look at stats on a stallion for your mare: Every one of those icons in red open up a whole new stat page. The information to someone in the business is "normal". This is what I spent 20 years observing as a trainer, not a breeder. I was dumbfounded that information about dogs was pretty much non existent. Granted, nobody seemed interested in it, so why put it out? In addition to performance though, it could be health and longevity, COIs and CODs. Companion dogs should not detract from performance since we acknowledge that most Dobermans are just that, and it also is an important piece of information about our breed.






The whole book: Search Results - Stallion Register Online


Enjoy this brief insight on how stats are simply a collection of information. Anything left out of the data skews the whole picture.

 

[Ravenbird]

One other thing about both parties submitting a breeding report is that accountability matters. I think in dogs it's making fake papers that that the puppies are from a breeding that didn't happen? That's why the stallion owner has to submit what mares were bred. It has to match up with the mare report saying who the mare was bred to. I don't know how common it is for shady breeders to sell puppies with fake papers, I'm assuming only in big kennels that are clearly in it for $$$.

 

[BGpa]

Great analogy.
See this presentation for akc registration year by year: (screenshot is of the youtube playlist here, see part one of Genetics by Dr Bell in 2024 national conference.

Health & Genetics of the Doberman

Protecting the future of the Doberman Pinscher starts with knowledge. This playlist brings together expert presentations focused on Doberman health, genetics...

m.youtube.com

This is very good for those new to the breed to get an overview of what breeders need to know, and owners who want to be informed to buy the best

 

[JanS]

I think in dogs it's making fake papers that that the puppies are from a breeding that didn't happen?

I have heard of it happening and I hope those people get busted big time sooner or later. And then of course you have some boasting their pups are CKC (Continental Kennel Club) registered and we all know what a hoax that is. I could probably get two squirrels outside registered with them saying they're Chihuahuas or something. LOL

 

[Rits]

I'm *pretty sure* AKC has no idea if a dog is mated with 5 bitches a year or 15.

The stud owner has to also sign in addition to the bitch owner in order to register a litter.

 

[Ravenbird]

The stud owner has to also sign in addition to the bitch owner in order to register a litter.

Thank you for that - it does help to get input from people like you that have actually been there/done that.

But there is no record of breedings in either AKC or DPCA unless the bitch owner submits a litter registration?