DCM and the future of the breed

[Dasz88]

Hi all,

I had a friend just have to out her dobie down for heart failure-- it came on so sudden. He is only 8 years old. She did everything right, bought from a very reputable breeder, and as far as i know, he was just a ticking time bomb. This is a bit of a rant, but it makes me sick that the DPCA and other guardians of this awesome breed can't get their heads out of their butts and save the breed. Dobermans used to live 12-14 (or even 15) years regularly. Now we have to celebrate when one lives until 10? And that's just normal? It really upsets me.

It takes 2+ years of full time training to train a dog to be field ready for SAR work. That doesn't count the basic obedience and puppy stuff. So, gilly will, at best, be deployment ready by 3. And maybe only have a 5 year career, at this rate, when dobermans in the past could have worked 8 years or more from that age (senior dogs slow down too much for most intense SAR work).

I learned about the dalmatian outcross project (The Dalmatian/Pointer Backcross Project: Overcoming 20th Century Attitude about Crossbreeding - TUFTSBG2011 - VIN) which introduced one pointer into a dalmatian line to solve a similar serious genetic issue. They received akc recognition in 2011. Why not do this in the doberman breed? It's not even a particularly old breed of dog, we know many of the component breeds that went into producing it so, ostensibly, it wouldn't be too hard to pick something else and add it to the mix. (As a side note, are there any responsible programs that have done this? I found someone online but they're adding cane corsos and random things to dobermans- if I get another dog, I'm not looking for a designer mutt. But a doberman with a bit of beauceron, German pinscher, etc., in its history thsr could reduce the risk of dcm and extend a dog's working life (and overall lifespan).

 

[JanS]

It is sad indeed but the Doberman is not the only breed suffering some of these horrible disorders. It's different with different breeds and none of them are immune, regardless of the breeding and health testing.
There are a bunch of Doberman studies trying to figure it all out and if BYBer's would just stop breeding unhealthy dogs, it would also help. We lost our 2 prior Dobermans to heart issues (one DCM and one not) in the last couple years, but they were both almost 11 years old.

 

[Rits]

Why not do this in the doberman breed?

Someone just asked this in one of the doberman groups and unfortunately it is not as simple as the dalmatian outcross project as it isn't just one simple gene that causes DCM. There are 90 some known markers for humans and we still don't have a cure or 100% understand that! With our dobermans we know of only two... It is known a lot of the seven sires had heart issues... so the breed started already on a bad foot. Nearly impossible to rid the breed of DCM without getting rid of the breed period.

The other issue with DCM is it doesn't typically show until well after breeding age. Then they could develop it but still live to be 11-13 and something else take them? So it's not very clearcut on the best way to remove DCM from the breeding pool. It is in every line. I just read an example where someone spayed their bitch because the parent had DCM. Her bitch never developed DCM and lived to be 14...

Currently the best preventative is being proactive by testing the heart through yearly echo and holter at 2 years old. Once they reach senior years, every 6 months. Catching it early can give them many years to live.

 

[JanS]

There are 90 some known markers for humans and we still don't have a cure or 100% understand that!

Yup I developed heart disease and a very noted cardiac specialist said it totally came from my Dad having it. Thankfully there was treatment for me but it wasn't around when my Dad passed away at an early age.

Vetmedin and Cardalis are some great meds for dogs with heart issues and as stated, early detection is really helpful.

 

[Ravenbird]

Why not do this in the doberman breed?

I'm the kind of science nerd that would do this if I was in my 30's. I love genetics and the idea. It takes years and years, several breeds that compliment the type and are not prone to genetic DCM. Then testing/training said litters, choosing the types and personalities that best match the Dobe, then breeding those back to Dobermans of different lines so there is zero inbreeding to the Dobe-x and doing this for several generations until you have a very good Doberman standard litter which would then have to be re-introduced to AKC for registry. Biggest blocks are AKC allowing the books to open and all the political BS that would follow, then allowing the handful of X's back into the Doberman books & gene pool. It's complicated for sure, but the Dalmations proved it could be done. I'm with you on this. DPCA has lost all my respect in this past year with a number of things, so I think the younger people here will get to witness this magnificent breed die out.

I DON'T believe in making up a new designer breed, I'm standing in favor of a very strict program of introducing several different breeds into several different lines of dobermans and taking the best F1 (first generation outcross) puppies and breed them directly back to Dobermans until the complete type returns. Only then would they be admitted into AKC as a Doberman. To me it's the only answer. It took multiple breeds to create the Doberman and it will take multiple breeds to save it.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Well stated, all!

Yeah, I poured a ton of training and time and work into my first Dobe (did it all myself, so it cost virtually no money) and we accomplished some things but he died at 8 1/2.

My 2nd and 3rd Dobes died in their 8th year as well.

One thing I've considered is that this breed (as with many large/medium breeds) takes a long time to mature. So, if I have to wait until my male Dobe is about 4 years old until he is fully mature and filled out, then that's about 1/2 his life to wait!

The outcrossing thing is a difficult topic. Yes of course, the breed was made up of several breeds but it is pure since, what, considerably over 100 years ago now? Outcrossing would make it not pure anymore, and we purebred lovers could no longer trace their pedigrees back and be so proud of them. On the other hand, I have been feeling in recent years that the breed may be in pretty bad shape and may need help or it's on its way out.

But, 8 years is 8 years. That's nothing to sneeze at.

 

[Rits]

Many of the breeds that would be appropriate to mix with are also prone to DCM. We would need to understand DCM first before trying to bring in fresh and the sad truth is we don't. We have two markers and that obviously means nothing right now.

 

[Ravenbird]

Many of the breeds that would be appropriate to mix with are also prone to DCM. We would need to understand DCM first before trying to bring in fresh and the sad truth is we don't. We have two markers and that obviously means nothing right now.

I totally agree that more markers would be useful, but the sad truth is, the Doberman by far has more hereditary DCM than any other breed. From Cornell University: Breeds predisposed to DCM include the Doberman Pinscher, the Great Dane, the Boxer, and the Cocker Spaniel. Dietary carnitine deficiency may play a role in some cases of Boxer DCM, and taurine responsive DCM has been identified in Cocker Spaniels. Those 3 breeds would not be in my personal choice to cross over anyway.

Outcrossing would make it not pure anymore, and we purebred lovers could no longer trace their pedigrees back and be so proud of them.

I don't think a handful of dogs introduced back into the gene pool would affect the breed at all if done properly. The dogs allowed back into the AKC would have Doberman standard and the one or two non-Dobes in its pedigree would be 3,4, or 5 generations back. And AKC could note it in the reg. number like the Z factor. Those who consider it sacrilege wouldn't have to breed to them. Those who wanted to add some new blood to their lines would have a choice. Since they'd be 80% + Doberman I don't know why you still couldn't trace their pedigrees back as far as you can today, including the pedigree line of the dog used to outcross. Genetics crossed with purpose are incredibly easy to get back to "square one", and as we've observed here, Dobe-mixes almost always weigh heavily on the Doberman side.

The average purebred dog has a inbred coefficient of about 20%. The Doberman ranges 30 - 45% on average. This is the equivalent of breeding sisters/brothers/mothers/fathers. My dog is 41% and has only one set of same dogs in her 4th generation. It doesn't look like that on paper, but because 10 - 20 generations back they DO all have many of the same ancestors. I laugh sometimes about the antics of our dogs here on the forum are like clones: how they all have the same mannerisms, habits, voices, movements, expressions etc. etc. but this kind of coefficient is also what produces inherited disease of any kind.

It's a pipe dream. I won't be doing any outcrossing and what few people are, there is no support for, so they will just be breeding Dobe-X's with no papers and thus no benefit to the breed itself. I have no answers.

 

[Kaiser2016]

and as we've observed here, Dobe-mixes almost always weigh heavily on the Doberman side.

There are some breeds out there that could be good candidates for mixing. The Ridgeback, as @jazzies mum can attest, seems to blend seamlessly with Dobermans. The Thai Ridgeback even has erect ears, so that's a bonus! The Beauceron is another. But ya, the will to do it has to be there.

I laugh sometimes about the antics of our dogs here on the forum are like clones: how they all have the same mannerisms, habits, voices, movements, expressions etc. etc. but this kind of coefficient

Clones is exactly right. Can see a Doberman from anywhere in the world and all of them act so similarly.

 

[JanS]

The Beauceron is another.

The Beauceron is actually one of the breeds the Doberman was derived from. Phoebe's best buddy was a Beauceron and it always worried me that she would be having a silent heat and we'd get that mix. It obviously never happened but it wouldn't have been the end of the world like some other mixes.

 

[Kaiser2016]

The Beauceron is actually one of the breeds the Doberman was derived from. Phoebe's best buddy was a Beauceron and it always worried me that she would be having a silent heat and we'd get that mix. It obviously never happened but it wouldn't have been the end of the world like some other mixes.

I remember how much she loved Selleck He was a handsome looking dog and they were so cute together.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Those who consider it sacrilege wouldn't have to breed to them.

That is what I was referring to when I wrote about the breed no longer being pure.

Yeah, a COI of 30 - 45 % is pretty high. When I was into looking at Boerboels, I'd steer away from a COI of 30+. It's very interesting: Oji's breeder, while a very good breeder, had an oops when her sons were left in charge of the dogs, and Oji's sister and brother bred. She subsequently DNA tested the pups and I remember her saying that the pups were genetically further apart than a lot of dogs that it is seen as acceptable to breed together. Something like that. So, I clearly don't have even a cursory mastery of genetics. I guess recessive genes play a big role.

 

[Ravenbird]

I remember her saying that the pups were genetically further apart than a lot of dogs that it is seen as acceptable to breed together.

IF you bred 2 completely unrelated dogs and then from that resulting litter bred a sister/brother, those puppies would have a COI of 25%. It could not possibly be lower genetically speaking, as the male & female each contribute 50% to the resulting litter. When she said "seen as acceptable" - those oops puppies could have been in the 40's.

 

[Two Dobes]

Well, has anyone seen this? I don't know what to think....

The Project A non-doberman is bred to a doberman to produce the first generation ("F1") outcross litter An F1 dog is bred to a doberman to produce the second generation ("F2") and first backcross litter... www.dobermanpreservationproject.com

 

[Ravenbird]

Yeah, I think we discussed this a year or two ago. Not sure if it had it's now thread or if it was in one of @Oh Little Oji's off breed threads.

It WOULD be the way to do things if one had the time, the money, the homes for the ones that didn't make the grade, the ability to trial them in sports and most of all, have a PLAN with certain breeds. The mix mash of out crosses doesn't make sense to me, physically or mental drive. Old English Bulldog? What are they thinking? It's like breeding a Clydesdale to a Shetland pony - you'll get diversity but no predictability.

And the other thing I've always said about this is that AKC would never ever allow them back into the books, so they'd never get Doberman registration again even if you were at F10's and nobody could tell without looking at DNA.

You know me and genetics. I love the science, the way it works and how crosses of horses, dogs, cows, cats - all done with purpose & intention can be easily tweaked (for better or worse) by just studying the pedigrees and knowing what your intentions are.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Yeah, I think we discussed this a year or two ago. Not sure if it had it's now thread or if it was in one of @Oh Little Oji's off breed threads.

One of my off breed threads

 

[Kswoodssue]

I went down a cyber rabbit hole looking for numbers concerning DCM and the incidence of disease in Dobermans. Having worked as a nurse for 40 plus years and a few of those years in cardiac care, I wanted a better understanding. The numbers truly are alarming, with a reported 60% of all Dobermans dying of this disease or conditions related to this disease. In humans, every child of a parent diagnosed with DCM has a 50/50 chance of developing DCM. In dogs, these percentages are not fully known, but I doubt they are less. A German study I read talked a lot about the left ventricular failure and/or heart enlargement. While the threat to the longevity of the breed looks dire, everything I read was a clear indicator that early diagnosis and treatment may add years to your pets life and this is why.

The heart is a muscle. Like every muscle in the body, when it is worked consistently harder, it gets larger. Unlike other muscles in the body, it doesn’t get stronger. Instead it becomes floppy and inefficient. The heart might start producing more and irregular beats, but beats like the premature ventricular contractions often experienced in DCM are non conductive. To understand the seriousness of this, you must consider the function of the left ventricle, the left lower portion of the heart. That function is to pump oxygenated blood to all organs and parts of the body. These non conductive beats can come intermittently or in groupings. Left untreated, the non conductive beats may not stop on their own, oxygen doesn’t get to the kidneys, or the brain, etc and the dog, or human, dies. Early detection, before the heart enlarges, might give medications a chance to work and extend life. Many of the meds prescribed control the irregular beats, I.e. slow and regulate the heart. If the heart is controlled, it can hopefully continue to pump oxygen to the body, giving us more time with our pups.

So, your vet might disagree. I may have my numbers wrong, but if you are on the fence, maybe this simplified description will help. They have not eradicated it yet in humans. It is here to deal with for some time to come.

 

[JanS]

The heart is a muscle. Like every muscle in the body, when it is worked consistently harder, it gets larger. Unlike other muscles in the body, it doesn’t get stronger. Instead it becomes floppy and inefficient. The heart might start producing more and irregular beats, but beats like the premature ventricular contractions often experienced in DCM are non conductive. To understand the seriousness of this, you must consider the function of the left ventricle, the left lower portion of the heart.

Good info and I think that's why they aren't as big on cardio workouts in humans as they used to be. That doesn't mean you should turn into a couch potato and you should get the heart pumping every day but pushing it too hard isn't the greatest either. When I went to cardio rehab they did want you to get your heart rate above 100 but the time was limited too.

 

[Kswoodssue]

Good info and I think that's why they aren't as big on cardio workouts in humans as they used to be. That doesn't mean you should turn into a couch potato and you should get the heart pumping every day but pushing it too hard isn't the greatest either. When I went to cardio rehab they did want you to get your heart rate above 100 but the time was limited too.

Other things like high blood pressure and obesity can make the heart work harder, or just the fact that the heart might be weaker than desired. Living things need oxygen and the body tries.

 

[Ravenbird]

Unlike other muscles in the body, it doesn’t get stronger. Instead it becomes floppy and inefficient.

Is there a reason for this? Other muscles get stronger with steady work, why would the heart not? Not disagreeing, just want to know. Even if it's only the human condition you know about.