DCM and the future of the breed

[Rits]

Seems interesting and glad they are health testing but I question the breeds they are choosing. Some seem to be incredibly random. Does the OEB come in merle by standard?

 

[Ravenbird]

Does the OEB come in merle by standard?

Not in AKC rules, it's a DQ.

I question the breeds they are choosing. Some seem to be incredibly random.

Right?!?

 

[Kswoodssue]

Is there a reason for this? Other muscles get stronger with steady work, why would the heart not? Not disagreeing, just want to know. Even if it's only the human condition you know

Because a healthy heart, even though it is a muscle, should not enlarge. Sometimes the reason is damage to the heart muscle and sometimes it is idiopathic, but it is still a symptom of cardiac disease. A healthy heart, even with vigorous exercise, doesn’t enlarge. That is why bigger is not always better.

 

[Ravenbird]

Because a healthy heart, even though it is a muscle, should not enlarge. Sometimes the reason is damage to the heart muscle and sometimes it is idiopathic, but it is still a symptom of cardiac disease. A healthy heart, even with vigorous exercise, doesn’t enlarge. That is why bigger is not always better.

Oh, ok. I misunderstood what you had said. Exercise should strengthen the heart muscle, yes. Enlargement is an anomaly, not a result of exercise.

 

[Rits]

Not in AKC rules, it's a DQ.

Thats what I had thought... really bizarre they are using examples like that then in their project.

 

[Ravenbird]

Thats what I had thought... really bizarre they are using examples like that then in their project.

Although the website says it's updated in 2023, I really think this is a small backyard type project and seems to have dwindled down. I see no new articles or photos or actual updates on the litters. It's just as well since I think their choice of breeding stock was pretty iffy. The only thing I saw so fascinating was how no matter what the Doberman is bred to, how prevalent their genes are with their looks!

 

[BGpa]

Although the website says it's updated in 2023, I really think this is a small backyard type project and seems to have dwindled down. I see no new articles or photos or actual updates on the litters. It's just as well since I think their choice of breeding stock was pretty iffy. The only thing I saw so fascinating was how no matter what the Doberman is bred to, how prevalent their genes are with their looks!

Thanks...touching bases on this as it seemed an interesting idea, but concur- some of the outcrosses seemed random, almost. Or bandog-ish.

Not a fan of more instability/aggression in big strong breeds, unless its protection sports/work.

Would like more genetic diversity and more support for overall family dogs with good protective instincts. Dogs have been bred to purpose over centuries without AKC help...
See Central Asia Shepards, Black nosed Curs, the early crosses with dingo Down Under.

I'd thought in past a rhodesian-dobe cross might make sense, ie to get the hardiness of the native african dog...but recall the euro mixes included back in the day to make the Rhodesians are similar to original done mix...

Maybe Catahoula Leopard for the original native dog genes but those lately have been backyard bred to all kinds of fierce dogs for catching hoggs...so, hmm.

Seems like AKC is stuck on fashion but that just my noob impression. On the other hand randim BYBs just make inbreeding worse...its a tough one.

Not been to DPCA site as it requires subscription, $$$ so no idea the 'culture' there.

UCDavis published an updated study on breeds, not long ago. I think the COI on american-euro dobie mixes was around 25%, but that seems low, unlikely in the context of outcross explanation given earlier in this thread...

 

[MichiH]

Yup I developed heart disease and a very noted cardiac specialist said it totally came from my Dad having it. Thankfully there was treatment for me but it wasn't around when my Dad passed away at an early age.

Vetmedin and Cardalis are some great meds for dogs with heart issues and as stated, early detection is really helpful.

Interesting info about the cardio aspect. Makes total sense though. This is my worry my Bp is all over and I lost my dad at a young age as well to heart disease. I apparently have the markers too found out from bloodwork.

As for the Dobermans, do you request the echo and holter to the vet?

 

[Ravenbird]

As for the Dobermans, do you request the echo and holter to the vet?

Echos are done by a (canine) cardiologist and the holter machine you can rent, then it's a do-it-yourself hook-up, then send the info card off for reading. I think most of us use Alba.

http://www.albamedical.com/animalhealth.html

If you are lucky enough your breeder has the machine & vest that they lend to their puppy-buyers once a year.

@JanS would know about human heart disease, and like canines there are different kinds with different treatments or preventions. My father had at least two heart attacks and a quadruple bypass. He smoked and had high bp, but quit smoking, took up swimming for exercise, even competed in Senior Olympics swimming and lived to be 85.

 

[Kaiser2016]

I'd thought in past a rhodesian-dobe cross might make sense

I also think this a great option. @jazzies mum has exactly this combo and Jazz looks just like a Doberman and seems to have all the traits too.

do you request the echo and holter to the vet

I did a post for Kaiser's test and I referenced several other member posts too so you could get some ideas there. We used the local Doberman club for our rental: Holter Test

 

[BGpa]

Hi all,

I had a friend just have to out her dobie down for heart failure-- it came on so sudden. He is only 8 years old. She did everything right, bought from a very reputable breeder, and as far as i know, he was just a ticking time bomb. This is a bit of a rant, but it makes me sick that the DPCA and other guardians of this awesome breed can't get their heads out of their butts and save the breed. Dobermans used to live 12-14 (or even 15) years regularly. Now we have to celebrate when one lives until 10? And that's just normal? It really upsets me.

It takes 2+ years of full time training to train a dog to be field ready for SAR work. That doesn't count the basic obedience and puppy stuff. So, gilly will, at best, be deployment ready by 3. And maybe only have a 5 year career, at this rate, when dobermans in the past could have worked 8 years or more from that age (senior dogs slow down too much for most intense SAR work).

I learned about the dalmatian outcross project (The Dalmatian/Pointer Backcross Project: Overcoming 20th Century Attitude about Crossbreeding - TUFTSBG2011 - VIN) which introduced one pointer into a dalmatian line to solve a similar serious genetic issue. They received akc recognition in 2011. Why not do this in the doberman breed? It's not even a particularly old breed of dog, we know many of the component breeds that went into producing it so, ostensibly, it wouldn't be too hard to pick something else and add it to the mix. (As a side note, are there any responsible programs that have done this? I found someone online but they're adding cane corsos and random things to dobermans- if I get another dog, I'm not looking for a designer mutt. But a doberman with a bit of beauceron, German pinscher, etc., in its history thsr could reduce the risk of dcm and extend a dog's working life (and overall lifespan).

I like the Beauceron idea. I read somewhere that breed was known to breeders in Germany at the time Mr Dobermann was mixing his dogs' secret recipe from pound puppies.

The modern day temperament is more fierce than NA show dogs, which is a plus. Since they are not as well known there is less BYB type issues.
I wonder how the breed does with DCM?

 

[JanS]

I like the Beauceron idea.

I wonder how the breed does with DCM?

They still have most of the same testing as the Doberman but I don't think the DCM is nearly as big a problem with Beaucerons'. Our trainer has 2 of them and she has an echo, holter and the different required tests every year.

 

[BGpa]

They still have most of the same testing as the Doberman but I don't think the DCM is nearly as big a problem with Beaucerons'. Our trainer has 2 of them and she has an echo, holter and the different required tests every year.

Thanks Jan.
I guess until a LOT more genetic data is accumulated and analyzed by the two different groups: "Diversity..." which is looking to sample 1000 dogs, run by DrLiu and another, at Cornell, with some Embark grant $$$
And
"Disappearing" at U of MN, looking to sample 1000-4000,

Then Dr Lius advice is to look at the puppies ancestry- up to grandparents and ask how long fmdid they live, and die of what?
That means using a registered breeder with verifiable info, from AKC, DPCA, and/ or working lines registries.

Is that about right?
PS: thanks for the confirm that Beauce's were in the original mix. If so then my idea to work them in wouldnt be best- cuz you want hardiness from as far apart genes?
Hmmm...
Maybe Catahoula, or old African hunting lines, if you want more prey drive to work into a protective breed, ...

Or, would it be better to bring in even older sheperd breed, non-Euro. Like: Central Asian Shepards or their relatives.

Kangal-Dobe. That would be intimidating, not a couch potato. Too much for a family pet.

 

[JanS]

"Disappearing" at U of MN, looking to sample 1000-4000

Our 2 have already submitted their samples and I know quite a few of our other members have too.

 

[BGpa]

And here's a quick peek at the outcrossing project- nothing new until 2025:

Progress

When the Doberman Preservation Project was launched in 2018 its objectives were based on sound genetic diversity principles, but an outcross program had never before had access to commercially...

www.dobermanpreservationproject.com

And a summation of Phase1:
"The second critical finding of Phase 1 of the Project was that multigenerational mixing is the key to besting the current purebred Doberman diversity measures, as utilizing backcrossing alone is not sufficient. Backcrossing alone will produce dogs who average approximately 25% COI. While this is a large improvement over the Doberman breed average of 43% COI, it is already currently achievable between purebred Dobermans without outcrossing first."