Continued Discussion On Akc Conformation

[GennyB]

Do I believe correct structure is important? Absolutely. Does that mean I don't think that conformation shows are not in fact beauty pageants? I believe with all my heart that AKC conformation shows are nothing but beauty pageants. Why do I say that? Because I see people spend hours on grooming the dog to hide flaws. Handlers spend many hours learning how to show a dog to best show the assets and hide the faults. Also learning about judges taste, only showing their dog with judges that like their type of dog. In my opinion, if you think you have a nice dog, put him out there against any dog and judge just the way he is. No hiding flaws, accentuating assets, just say here's my dog, what do you think? That's a conformation show vs beauty pageant.

 

[DocReverto]

Do I believe correct structure is important? Absolutely. Does that mean I don't think that conformation shows are not in fact beauty pageants? I believe with all my heart that AKC conformation shows are nothing but beauty pageants. Why do I say that? Because I see people spend hours on grooming the dog to hide flaws. Handlers spend many hours learning how to show a dog to best show the assets and hide the faults. Also learning about judges taste, only showing their dog with judges that like their type of dog. In my opinion, if you think you have a nice dog, put him out there against any dog and judge just the way he is. No hiding flaws, accentuating assets, just say here's my dog, what do you think? That's a conformation show vs beauty pageant.

To each their own.

I mean no offense when I say this, but I dont understand how you could possibly come up with this conclusion without ever showing in the AKC?

Let me take you to a real AKC show. We can enter your dog, Ill teach you how to handle, ill introduce you to some of the big time handlers in our breed, the big time breeders, the professional groomers (almost always gay), and you can see how this simply is not true.

 

[TX_dobe]

If dog shows are so great then why have they breed health problems in to so many breeds. Watching some breeds move in the show ring is painful for me. Then to see those dogs win the show is even more painful because that is the way the breed is moving to. They follow trends good or bad in the breeds. I could start a long list of things that the show world has started that has nothing to do in bettering the breed but is a fad for the time and sometimes hurts the breed. They are beauty pageants that looks at structure. Who would win a beauty pageant if they do not move good? To me conformation is something a dog has or does not. It is not like every other dog even that has training that may need improvement.

 

[DocReverto]

If dog shows are so great then why have they breed health problems in to so many breeds. Watching some breeds move in the show ring is painful for me. Then to see those dogs win the show is even more painful because that is the way the breed is moving to. They follow trends good or bad in the breeds. I could start a long list of things that the show world has started that has nothing to do in bettering the breed but is a fad for the time and sometimes hurts the breed. They are beauty pageants that looks at structure. Who would win a beauty pageant if they do not move good? To me conformation is something a dog has or does not. It is not like every other dog even that has training that may need improvement.

No one will deny in a few breeds conformation breeders have done damage.
Ill bring up the german shepherd and the pekingese. You know how these dogs failed? They started following fads. Breeders, breed, judges. Everyone involved in those breeds deviated from their standard to the point of serious issue. While thats unfortunate you can not blame an entire sport because of a few bad apples localized in one breed. That would be like me saying working sports are just about abusing your dogs to achieve titles. Now to 99% of the sport thats not true, so clearly a little unfair dont you think?

Thankfully GSD breeders realized their mistake, and are in the process of breeding that out. Ironically enough the GSD is arguably the most successful and popular breed of dog in history. So they clearly didnt go that far off track.

Our breed clubs maintain standards, and one of the most important parts is structure. Without it TX dobe you have that working dog that can barely move (unfortunately we are seeing this already)

The beauty pageant misconception was born and bred by AR groups. AKC conformation is one of the largest breeding sports in the world. For them to push hate on the sport, it in turn damages breeders.
Have you ever been in an AKC show short of watching? Its easy to dismiss it as a beauty pageant if you are not involved.
From someone actively involved in that side you are dead wrong. Our judges receive extensive training, and honestly i question those who dismiss it so easily.

Without AKC conformation breeders the amount of dogs populating this great nation would be so drastically reduced its painful to think about.

Like it or not, those breeders, and that sport maintain your ability to own dogs at all.
They are the ones fighting AR legislation. The ones with our breed clubs. The ones maintaining the standard.

Im not sure if its lack of knowledge on that side of dogs or what, but its so incredibly wrong.
I invite both of you to an AKC show. Ill help you train/handle/enter one, and show you how judging an entire sport based off of a couple ringside events is not whats going on at a dog show.

 

[DocReverto]

They are beauty pageants that looks at structure. Who would win a beauty pageant if they do not move good? To me conformation is something a dog has or does not. It is not like every other dog even that has training that may need improvement.

This also indicates you may need some education here.

Are working sports based off of this all or nothing approach?

Absolutely not. You are judging the best dog out of the line up, and while some dogs may not move like the perfect doberman, show me one perfect doberman that does.

Conformation is not "you either have it or not" and literally every other person involved in conformation would say the same. Just like with your working sports some qualities are good, and some not so good. It is a game of balance, and getting as close to perfect as you can get.

Do working dobermans move well? Have excellent structure? So why can they win IPO titles? Its the same logic, and it doesnt work at all.


I have to ask what bad experiences you have had with this sport, or if its strictly the working vs conformation battle.
This isnt the sport for everyone, and i get that. You and yours dogs are constantly scrutinized, its crazy expensive, and you lose way more then you win.

 

[DocReverto]

You know the DPCA nationals are coming up. This is an excellent example of how well off our breed is conformation wise.

Perhaps that would be a good time to show you guys just how important conformation is.

To be able to see this article but in real form .

 

[GennyB]

To each their own.

I mean no offense when I say this, but I dont understand how you could possibly come up with this conclusion without ever showing in the AKC?

Let me take you to a real AKC show. We can enter your dog, Ill teach you how to handle, ill introduce you to some of the big time handlers in our breed, the big time breeders, the professional groomers (almost always gay), and you can see how this simply is not true.

I have attended many AKC shows. I saw what I stated. I don't know if you remember or not but I was encouraged by more than one judge to show Drake in AKC. I did my research. Read everything I could find, talked to judges owners and handlers...one of which was you. I attended a few shows with a friend of mine that is an AKC judge. She showed me around the entire show, explaining what was happening. I even attended some handling classes given by a judge. And yes, she was full of tips for distracting from faults and enhancing assets. There is even a drop in class at a local AKC club that I went to...once. They were full of tips on how to research judges and pick the ones that like your type of dog. So NO, AKC is not for me. IMHO, AKC may have had their day, but it's over and is no longer the prestigious it was. Like you said to each their own.

 

[DocReverto]

Thankfully the AKC is still kicking, at least for me.

Im thankful we still have an outlet for us to maintain breed type.

I have seen first hand what happens when conformation is no longer important, or when the IABCA hands out titles people believe are breeding worthy.

The AKC (again all my opinion) is the only conformation outlet here in the US where we can maintain and improve the conformation of quality breeding stock.

 

[GennyB]

or when the IABCA hands out titles people believe are breeding worthy.

I'm confused by that. What does that mean? Are you saying that if you enter a IABCA show they just hand you a title no matter what?

 

[DocReverto]

Ok I moved this thread so the structure thread could stay on topic. I think I got everything.

Paint to answer your question, yes that's exactly what I mean. The IABCA is notoriously known for handing out titles if you can fork out the cash. That's ok with me though since they are not titles that dignify a dog of having good enough conformation for breeding, and they are fun! I like putting Ravens Int Ch title before his name. It shows I went out there and had fun with my dog. The AKC Ch is what important for breeding my dog, in my eyes of course.

Now I'm not saying only champions from the AKC can be bred, but this ties into the whole argument about sacrifices in a breeding program in order to add a desired trait to the gene pool. Each breeder needs to make that call on an individual basis.

I know you don't like the AKC, and a lot of it has to do with how serious and cut throat it is. IMO it's a professional environment for breeders, handlers, and those looking to have fun. The DPCA is almost 100% towards AKC conformation in regards to our breeds standard, and survival. Plus if I'm being honest MOST (not all) of the dogs in venues like the IABCA are more geared towards pet ownership.


I like all venues that promote a healthy relationship with your dog, but on a breeding level the AKC stands out.

The beauty pageant logic is all but overdone. It's similar to me saying every working dog is viscous. Both sports are widely misunderstood due to the bias each party has (myself included). I'm sorry but AKC conformation dogs have carried every single breed in the US for a long long time. Without AKC conformation you would see the destruction of many breeds. Including Dobermans, as most consider our breed to be one of the most competitive out there. Up there with boxers, and goldens.

 

[DocReverto]

And I'm sorry I didn't mean to put words in your mouth as to why you dislike it. I was just basing that comment off of your previous posts on the subject.

 

[TX_dobe]

I will keep this talk about Dobermans and not move in to all the other breeds. The AKC has moved away from the heavy bone structures. You even said that we have a lot of not so great heads in the U.S.. If it was not a beauty pageant then why did they start breeding for the long ears. It started because it became trendy. I never seen at AKC shows them measure the dogs height or length. I do not know about you but I can not tell how tall a dog is by eying it. A tall handler will make the dog look smaller. Lets not get on the dogs that get a CH before they are full grown.

P.S. You are the one that move the topic off track by stating that the AKC show ring is not a beauty pageant. No one will argue that is structure is not very important. I believe you have also stepped on a lot of feet when you said working breeders do not care about conformation and they look like rotts. I do not know what respected kennels you are talking about.

 

[DocReverto]

I will keep this talk about Dobermans and not move in to all the other breeds. The AKC has moved away from the heavy bone structures. You even said that we have a lot of not so great heads in the U.S.. If it was not a beauty pageant then why did they start breeding for the long ears. It started because it became trendy. I never seen at AKC shows them measure the dogs height or length. I do not know about you but I can not tell how tall a dog is by eying it. A tall handler will make the dog look smaller. Lets not get on the dogs that get a CH before they are full grown.

P.S. You are the one that move the topic off track by stating that the AKC show ring is not a beauty pageant. No one will argue that is structure is not very important. I believe you have also stepped on a lot of feet when you said working breeders do not care about conformation and they look like rotts. I do not know what respected kennels you are talking about.

Ok top to bottom.

Yes the Doberman head can be better. Something a lot of breeders are working on.
As far as ears go are you referencing from the 50's to now? The crops have changed. Not the ears. Back then they executed shorter crops, now we crop them longer. The length of the natural ear hasn't changed much, if at all. Just grown in proportion with the larger heads we see now.
Length of ear is not in the standard (that I believe), everyone's crop length varies greatly on personal preference. Ears can be shaped long or short by the vet. That's not a breed trait, that's a surgery trait.

The AKC didn't move away from a heavier bone structure, the DPCA (our parent club) did. Our standard calls from a totally different dog then what you see in Europe.

Judges should be able to adequately judge heights of the dog in a ring. Have you ever seen a 30" Doberman? They are easy to pick out. Dogs are judged next to each other, so heighth of handler doesn't make a difference. When comparing to other dogs it is easy to see when this is correct or incorrect.
This is where the training our judges get is so crucial. To the untrained eye, maybe a tall Doberman would get through. Not with judges.

As far as puppies finishing their CH, while rare it still does happen. The puppies who do finish early exhibit extremely high qualities that pass on to adulthood. Again I'm not sure if you have shown in AKC conformation before, but it is extremely difficult to finish a puppy competing against mature dogs. The puppy has to be outstanding.
The puppy argument is normally based on the temperament side. AKC conformation does not test temperament. Structure, and movement only. So the temperament side of it does not apply. The only argument here is puppies maturing from good to bad. Which taking the amount of puppies finishing, to the amount that turn out poorly conformed you are looking at a minuscule amount of dogs this affects. Nowhere near anything that could even slightly damage the breed.

You mention me stepping on toes about working breeders. We are all allowed an opinion(even mine from that thread), and if you have issue with those comments you can pm me, but they have nothing to do with this thread. That thread was locked. It's best we drop that and not deviate any further. I hold no grudges on you for your opinions in that thread (even though they differ from my own) I ask for the same respect.

The thread I made was about the importance of structure in our breed, this one is the result of it going off topic. So it's totally cool to continue that conversation here.

 

[GennyB]

Paint to answer your question, yes that's exactly what I mean. The IABCA is notoriously known for handing out titles if you can fork out the cash. That's ok with me though since they are not titles that dignify a dog of having good enough conformation

Huh? I don't understand that. It is the same standard and most of the judges in IABCA are AKC judges. So what are you saying? The same judges just give pet owners a bonus? I can only speak in terms of my dog because that is what I know. I have shown him in IABCA. Every judge he stepped in front of in the venue gave him a V-1. Are you saying that he would not meet the same standard in AKC? You have my permission to use Drake as an example for discussion purposes. While, I am far from an expert, I do know enough to know that he is a excellent example of the breed. He has good conformation, good temperament and drives. I use drive plural because he proved to me just last night that he has good fight drive....story for another thread.

I know you don't like the AKC, and a lot of it has to do with how serious and cut throat it is.

The "cut throat" aspect is only part of what I don't like. I don't like the approach that only conformation is a reason to breed a dog. That said, I don't like that same "closed minded" approach on the other side either. There are other aspects to consider when breeding dogs. Temperament as well as health, play important roles as well. There is nothing in place in AKC for those considerations.
I also don't like the overall attitude of people (speaking in general terms), in the AKC venue. Step into the ring a couple of times and suddenly you become a expert on your breed. Suddenly that person becomes a "dog snob" and only their opinion matters. They start name dropping and turn into this arrogant monster that stuffs their opinion down your throat. If a person disagrees, you suddenly become trash in their eyes. I believe that how a dog is put together is only one part of what makes a dog breeding material. Dog breeding plays the same role as any product in the market place. As a breeder, do your research, health testing and all the things required to put the best "product" you can out there and let the buyers decide if you have done a good job.
It's all so silly in the big picture when you think about it. Breeding Dobermans should be about that. Not fight and trashing within the circle. To use an analogy...like you like to do, it's like the old c/d docking argument. C/d or natural, it's still a Doberman. So if you like a conformation or working...it's still a Doberman.

 

[Dobs4ever]

The AKC didn't move away from a heavier bone structure, the DPCA (our parent club) did.

DPCA did not change the standard regarding bone - (breeders not breeding to standard are the culprit) Fads have hurt the conformation ring as much as poor judging. I still remember the year Ray Carlisle judged Natls - he walked in and even before they went around the ring he dismissed the over angualated SA dogs and the oversized dogs . You should have seen the shock on the faces of some of the handlers....THEN he judged the breed. But Ray is true to the standard including temperament which can't be judged in the ring. Then you have the judges who put up the handler not necessarily the dog. I doubt that anyone can deny that a large segment of folks have lost a lot of respect for AKC.

I don't honestly know how anyone can claim that finishing puppies is rare - it happens just about ever weekend. We see a wide variety of judging foo paxs in the ring. And that is partly why some breeder pick and choose and only show to certain judges who "like" their type of dog which may or may not be the best to standard. With today smaller shows the dogs especially have much smaller competition and way too often you hear a handler say lay off your bitch so my dog can take the win and pick up her points. IMHO that is cheating. Both dogs in the ring should be showing to their best and may the best dog win. These things definitely hurt the quality of champions one sees today.

The European style of judging against the standard does a couple things really well - # 1 it helps the gene pool by not eliminating a dog that is structurally correct and if shown enough like in the US will eventually win anyway. #2 It is more encouraging and every dog must pass a temperament test unlike the US which is exactly why so many think the temperaments here are pretty weak. The Europeans have maintained their focus for the working breeds with the temperament test requirements for a CH. #3. NO dog can finish or even get a point towards finishing as a puppy. They are allowed 1 CC as a youth if they pass the appropriate youth temperament test but the remaining 2 must come from the adult class (24 months) with the adult TT. That is how you breed for good temperaments. A stunningly beautiful dog would not ever become a ch without passing the temperament test.

If we could line up all the Champions here along with some of the greats in the past we would be saying how on earth did that dog get it championship. And temperament would probably eliminated over half of them. We must put focus on the correct things.

So you have to have correct structure (conformation) which is far far different from the beauty pageant we see today and we must test temperament.

 

[FredC]

Rosettes to Ruins...

This is what show ring breeders do -- they ruin working breeds. And it is not just the AKC show ring, either -- it's the UKC show ring and the JRTCA show ring as well. Give any show ring enough time, and it will ruin any breed of working dog -- it always has and it always will.

"In the production of economically useful animals, the show ring is more of a menace than an aid to breeding. Once fancy points are introduced into the standard of perfection, the breeders will give more attention to those easily judged qualities than to the more important qualities that do not happen to be of such a nature that we can evaluate them at shows. Showing has nothing to do with utility at all, it is simply a competitive game."

Former AKC President Kenneth Marden has acknowledged the role of the show ring in killing off working breeds:

"We [the AKC] have gotten away from what dogs were originally bred for. In some cases we have paid so much attention to form that we have lost the use of the dog."

 

[ChrisB]

DPCA did not change the standard regarding bone - (breeders not breeding to standard are the culprit) Fads have hurt the conformation ring as much as poor judging. I still remember the year Ray Carlisle judged Natls - he walked in and even before they went around the ring he dismissed the over angualated SA dogs and the oversized dogs . You should have seen the shock on the faces of some of the handlers....THEN he judged the breed. But Ray is true to the standard including temperament which can't be judged in the ring. Then you have the judges who put up the handler not necessarily the dog. I doubt that anyone can deny that a large segment of folks have lost a lot of respect for AKC.

I don't honestly know how anyone can claim that finishing puppies is rare - it happens just about ever weekend. We see a wide variety of judging foo paxs in the ring. And that is partly why some breeder pick and choose and only show to certain judges who "like" their type of dog which may or may not be the best to standard. With today smaller shows the dogs especially have much smaller competition and way too often you hear a handler say lay off your bitch so my dog can take the win and pick up her points. IMHO that is cheating. Both dogs in the ring should be showing to their best and may the best dog win. These things definitely hurt the quality of champions one sees today.

The European style of judging against the standard does a couple things really well - # 1 it helps the gene pool by not eliminating a dog that is structurally correct and if shown enough like in the US will eventually win anyway. #2 It is more encouraging and every dog must pass a temperament test unlike the US which is exactly why so many think the temperaments here are pretty weak. The Europeans have maintained their focus for the working breeds with the temperament test requirements for a CH. #3. NO dog can finish or even get a point towards finishing as a puppy. They are allowed 1 CC as a youth if they pass the appropriate youth temperament test but the remaining 2 must come from the adult class (24 months) with the adult TT. That is how you breed for good temperaments. A stunningly beautiful dog would not ever become a ch without passing the temperament test.

If we could line up all the Champions here along with some of the greats in the past we would be saying how on earth did that dog get it championship. And temperament would probably eliminated over half of them. We must put focus on the correct things.

So you have to have correct structure (conformation) which is far far different from the beauty pageant we see today and we must test temperament.

id like to see the pics of past and present Champions just to get a visual. IDK if you'll take the time but i'm sure a few people would like to see it as well

 

[Dobs4ever]

Champions from the past - Dictat or - One of the great foundation sires

 

[Dobs4ever]

Electra's the WindWalker

Briarwood Storms a Brewin

Dexter Von Frankenhorst

 

[Dobs4ever]

Alpha LeDobry

Ebo Maat

Elisir Campovqalano

The AKC didn't move away from a heavier bone structure, the DPCA (our parent club) did.

As you can see both sides have strayed far from working conformation to the beauty pageant. The dogs today are far too bitchy looking and you have to look under the dog to make sure it is a male.