Breeder Types

[DocReverto]

Another topic that may be interesting, since it seems we have some varying opinion here.

What exactly separates a good breeder from an excellent breeder?
How do you all define a reputable breeder?

When you found your first breeder, before education on what is correct, what were your requirements?

 

[Caloni]

Here are the guidelines under which I wish all breeders followed:
- Genetic health testing for Heart Disease with a halter test on each breeding m/f at the very least
- Certified Good to Excellent hips on the parents and possibly the grandparents of the breeding m/f
- Certified Good to Excellent elbows on the parents and possibly the grandparents of the breeding m/f
- Eyes tested and normal on both the m/f
- Thyroid normal and not a carrier for thyroid disease
- VWD clear, there is no reason for effected or carrier dogs to even exist from the mom and dad
- Option given to buyer to have the ears cropped before you pick them up (preferably with stitches already healed).
- There are probably a few health tests that I am missing, but I need to leave for work....so add them to the list.

I would also like if the dogs stayed in the home and not in outdoor kennels or a large breeding facility or barn. They crave human attention so much that I think they go stir crazy or kennel crazy in these situations. I would really love a breeder who does therapy work with her dog, has service dogs in her lines, or at least obedience titles on some of her dogs. Just asking them to sit around all the time and breed is just lazy in my opinion and it makes the dogs depressed and bored.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Why would there be a separation???? You are either good or you are not. We have enough challenges without trying to split hairs even further which only feeds the AR agenda - the more divided we are the better chance they have of dividing and conquering.

Genetic health testing for Heart Disease with a halter test on each breeding m/f at the very least
- Certified Good to Excellent hips on the parents and possibly the grandparents of the breeding m/f
- Certified Good to Excellent elbows on the parents and possibly the grandparents of the breeding m/f
- Eyes tested and normal on both the m/f
- Thyroid normal and not a carrier for thyroid disease
- VWD clear, there is no reason for effected or carrier dogs to even exist from the mom and dad
- Option given to buyer to have the ears cropped before you pick them up (preferably with stitches already healed).
- There are probably a few health tests that I am missing, but I need to leave for work....so add them to the list.

While the above list is good it would restrict an already small gene pool to the point of extinction. For example.

What if a Vwd affected dog was actually 100% free of cardio and thyroid- should we eliminate him from the gene pool and loose the good he could bring bred to a clear????

There are 3 passing grades for OFA excellent , good and fair - why would we eliminate a fair if he was Vwd clear, passed the CERF test and thyroid normal??? Our gene pool is small as it is - we are on a shockingly downward spiral that will soon be approaching the endangered list.

If we could guarantee any of the above then radically eliminating everything might work but there are too many unknowns in genetics and once you restrict a gene pool through radical elimination then you run a huge risk of locking in something just as bad for example cancer and then you have no where to go to eliminate that because you locked the gene pool through radical elimination.

I will say this good breeders crop their puppies - That is my personal opinion it is not a rule but since our breed is c/d then when you choose a doberman you have chosen a c/d breed. So where does the "option" come into play - For BYB it would not matter as they do not have "show" picks and would not know how to grade a litter anyway. But since ears are done before grading is completed a good breeder would not want to leave a puppy uncropped and then it end up the "pick". So that tells me most people are not going to breeders who are trying to follow a standard.

Breed clubs were formed to protect and preserve their breed. They write standards to guide breeders, breeders who do not follow the standard can't be good on any level. If we throw out the standard and just let people pick and choose what parts they like then soon we will not have any purebred dogs that are recognizable. JMHO

Breeders should be honest - do their best to follow the standard - support their families - have strong knowledge through training and showing to guide new people and support their breed club. That is a good breeder - You can't guarantee any level of health as genetics have their own rules and can throw you a curve -environment plays a role and viral and bacterial infections play a role and I think nutrition plays a role..... breeders know this pet people don't seem to get it.

 

[DocReverto]

There is a definite separation between a horrible breeder, a bad breeder, a good breeder, and an excellent breeder.

In my opinion what separates an excellent breeder from a good breeder is being able to achieve fantastic results on top of all of the requirements that go along with breeding. You can health test a poor conformation, poor working dog and have it pass, but that doesnt mean its a breed worthy dog.

Those that can created the Case's, the FiFis, the Bellas, those are the ones who are not only applying the practices required but are getting the result as well.

 

[DocReverto]

The ones that are legitimately bettering the breed, and not just "continuing". Thats an excellent breeder, IMO.

But both good, and excellent would be "good" choices for a breeder.

 

[DocReverto]

Then moving on to bad and terrible.

Bad being BYBs. People that still love their pets, but breed for money without any health testing.
Terrible being puppy mills, pump and dump operations.
Both equally bad choices for a breeder.

 

[FredC]

Every breeder in the world is a BYB by someone standards.. Frankly the term is derogatory to any breeder with a soul.. I've been called a BYB by some of the SCUMMIEST breeders in the game and at the same time I've been told by some of the most respected breeders in the world that my program is ambitious and impressive.. I do believe BYBs exist but I don't think the term should be used as loosely as it is.. A person breeding solely for profit with zero knowledge of what he's producing outside of a pedigree dog is IMO a BYB. Everyone has to start somewhere and all I ask is that you learn from mistakes and try to improve and evolve with each passing litter..

Truthfully I find it sad that the AR agenda to put an end to all breeding by creating the term Back Yard Breeder has been bought hook line and sinker by so many intelligent people.. The life expectancy of a Doberman has done nothing but go down since the late 70s when this stupid debate actually started gaining traction..

 

[iceman]

While the above list is good it would restrict an already small gene pool to the point of extinction. For example.

What if a Vwd affected dog was actually 100% free of cardio and thyroid- should we eliminate him from the gene pool and loose the good he could bring bred to a clear????

There are 3 passing grades for OFA excellent , good and fair - why would we eliminate a fair if he was Vwd clear, passed the CERF test and thyroid normal??? Our gene pool is small as it is - we are on a shockingly downward spiral that will soon be approaching the endangered list.

If we could guarantee any of the above then radically eliminating everything might work but there are too many unknowns in genetics and once you restrict a gene pool through radical elimination then you run a huge risk of locking in something just as bad for example cancer and then you have no where to go to eliminate that because you locked the gene pool through radical elimination.

Absolutely..
I recently noticed the following on a DCM DNA test report issued by a veterinary genetics lab in the USA..
Underlined bold statement at the end is exactly what you have pointed out...we cannot and must not eliminate every dog with a defect..by doing so we are shrinking the gene pool..

GENETIC INFO DILATED CARDIOMYOPATHY MUTATION (DCM) IS A FORM OF HEART DISEASE IN THE DOBERMAN PINSCHER DOG. IT IS INHERITED AND OUR LABORATORY HAS IDENTIFIED A MUTATION RESPONSIBLE FOR THE GENE IN SOME DOBERMAN PINSCHER. HOWEVER, IT SHOULD BE NOTED THAT IN HUMAN BEINGS WITH THE SAME DISEASE, THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT GENETIC MUTATIONS WHICH CAN CAUSE THIS DISEASE. WE DO NOT YET KNOW IF THIS IS THE ONLY MUTATION IN THE DOBERMAN PINSCHER OR IF THERE WILL BE MANY DIFFERENT MUTATIONS. PLEASE KEEP IN MIND THAT WE ARE CONTINUALLY LEARNING ABOUT THIS DISEASE AND RECOMMENDATIONS WILL BE ALTERED AS WE OBTAIN MORE INFORMATION. CURRENTLY OUR INTERPRETATION OF THE TEST IS:

NEGATIVE RESULTS: THE ABSENCE OF THE MUTATION IN THIS DOG, DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT WILL NEVER DEVELOP THE DISEASE. IT MEANS THAT IT DOES NOT HAVE THE ONLY KNOWN MUTATION THAT CAN CAUSE THE DISEASE IN THE DOG AT THIS TIME.

POSITIVE RESULTS: DOGS THAT ARE POSITIVE FOR THE TEST WILL NOT NECESSARILY DEVELOP SIGNIFICANT HEART DISEASE AND DIE FROM THE DISEASE. SOME DOGS WILL DEVELOP A VERY MILD FORM OF THE DISEASE AND WILL LIVE QUITE COMFORTABLY, SOME MAY NEED TREATMENT.

IMPORTANTLY, BREEDING DECISIONS SHOULD BE MADE CAREFULLY. AT THIS TIME WE HAVE DO NOT YET KNOW WHAT PERCENTAGE OF DOBERMAN PINSCHER WILL BE POSITIVE FOR THE MUTATION. HOWEVER, REMOVAL OF A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF DOGS FROM THE BREEDING POPULATION COULD BE VERY BAD FOR THE DOBERMAN PINSCHER BREED. REMEMBER THAT DOGS THAT CARRY THIS MUTATION ALSO CARRY OTHER IMPORTANT GOOD GENES THAT WE DO NOT WANT TO LOSE FROM THE BREED.

 

[TX_dobe]

In mine mind a great breeder is one that spends a lot of time bettering the breed not just their breeding program. People like Ray Carlisle who spend a lot of time pushing on the temperament in the breed. Very few people can be called a great breeder because of what it take to help change people minds on what is important in the breed. One a side note the difference between a BYB and a good breeder is a fine line that is a lot of work to cross it.