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Bad dog food

Discussion in 'Doberman Nutritional Care' started by JanS, Jul 21, 2009.

  1. Denissov43

    Denissov43 Notable member

    my post was for kibble feeders "Jan S' who did not have access to Orijen food where she lived.
    and I never said that feeding kibble was 'bad'... my original thread was started stating that to me there is no 'Good & Cheap" kibble... everyone went off on me from there...
    Apparently all the kibble feeders are super sensitive and take offence when someone disagrees with them....
    My post was simply information and opinion based on my own experience, research and knowledge.
    I never said I do not feed kibble.. I never said I think IT (BLANKETLY AND GENERICALLY) is "BAD"...
    I said... "Cheap and good are not synonymous with Dog food today"...
    I said I feed TOW as I did the research on Diamond and have extensive experience with Diamond and lost two champion Neapolitan Mastiffs before they turned 7 on it...
    I have been feeding RAW and Kibble for over 25 yrs.... I never said that any of you were bad, wrong, stupid, dumb, ignorant or any of the things that you all read into what was said...
    If you read into something more than what was said, its time to look in the mirror and yourself and see why?
    I made my statements and backed them up with science, evidence and research not simply "My opinions' and ya'all went crazy over it..
    those who did not go crazy over it, messaged me privately and said "thanks for the info" and some who did not go all crazy and get offended simply agreed and stated their experience too...

    So I guess its a personal thing some of you have with people who do not agree with ya, and I am guessing it happens alot and I am not the only one who its happened with out here or anywhere for that matter.
    So I consider that reality and do not take offense at any of you who have taken offense at me.
    its nothing personal, it seems its just what you do...
    I am cool with it [​IMG]
  2. Apollo

    Apollo Novitiate

    Hmmm not to start here something, i'm far away from doing so, but you were the one who told us, feeding kibble were bad ect and only raw were the best ect. ect. Now in your last post you been denieng it, thats fine. Sure you don't have to agree with everybody, so don't i, but i know what i was reading, so do others. I don't get offend at all with what you been posting here, i get offended if someone tries to sale me his way or no way. That isn't working. if i weren't so lazy right now, i would go and copy everything you said and now try to turn it around, but wont do it. me personal have no problem to admit when i was wrong and yes you said you only feed raw to your dogs, thats just as a little reminder. Nothing wrong with that andits nothing wrong with feeding kibble. A lot of people feed both, nothing wrong with that either. Everybody does, what he thinks its the best for their dogs. why is it so hard to accept for you. So enough said :) And no i'm not attacking you. Just giving my opinion on that thread.
    Speaking of Diamond Food, i know a very great breeder who feeds that kind of food and she has let me think two or 3 dogs what are over 10 now, so can't be that bad, she must have done something right ;)
    When i grew up, there werent that many dog foods on the market, there were maybe two different kinds, my grandmas dog got PTS when she was 20 or 21 and she was on kibble her whole life nd here and there some tablefood, hehehehe
    I think most of the time it might be not the problem with the food, it might be the breeding to what plays into it.
    • Like Like x 4
  3. Denissov43

    Denissov43 Notable member

    I NEVER said feeding kibble was bad... I never said I feed ONLY Raw...
    I said RAW IS BEST hands down over any and ALL kibble and will always be...
    laziness is the entire and total reason why human beings ever started feeding dogs kibble. I have fed kibble but no longer feed anything that has anything but real meat and NO grain at ALL and NO 4-d Meat and NO by products of any kind.
    I feed a bag of kibble and 35 lbs lasts me 4 months with four dogs... so they survive on RAW but kibble is in a bowl to nibble on if they feel the desire.
    I never anything negative to anyone here regarding what they choose to feed.. everyone who got offended got offended because they 'read into' my posts far more than was there as have you..
    dogs are opportunists and can survive on crap.. clearly... because most humans feed their dog whatever crap is the cheapest thing available at the grocery store, pet food store or wherever they get what they feed.
    Dogs are not 'healthy' on that food regardless of how long they live...
    My dad is 88 and will probably live until he is in his 90's..
    does that statement also mean he that he must be healthy since he has lived so long? hardly...
    he is merely surviving with a host of ailments and ill health that has plagued him for 40 plus years from eating crap and not taking care of himself...
    HEALTH is vibrant, alive, full of life, no disease, no ailments and health is only achieved by eating well and caring for oneself.
    Living a long life does not mean or equate to being 'healthy' and vice versa...
  4. Apollo

    Apollo Novitiate

    Maybe its the How you write it, the sound of it. In germany we say the ton makes the music.
    And believe me its not lazyness that i feed kibble, just can talk for myself here. But i couldn't affort to feed only raw.
    I would pay minimum $270 a month on meat for my 3 dogs and i pay 40 for a bag of dogfood. I need 1.5 bag a month so that makes it $ 60 for 3 dogs.
    The $ 270 would be just the meat, not to talk about other things you might will feed and like i said, you sound like that kibbles are that bad, no its not.
    I know you are a vegetarier, i think do remember that, you think thats the healthiest way ?
    I personal don't think so, because the human its a ominvares too and need everything, meat, grains, veggies ect. you can eat everything in moderation and be very healthy.
    Most of the vegetarians and veganer i see are permanently sick or sick looking.
    I don't say i eat perfect, but i must be on the right track, since i'm 5'8, weight 120 lbs and never been sick, besides a cold maybe once in awhile. Same with my dogs. All the dogs i had in my life lived a happy healthy life and only saw the vet for their shots
    • Like Like x 4
  5. JanS

    JanS DCF Owner Administrative Staff Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    I try to support our local pet store any time I can, even if the price is a little higher, but I pay $20/year for a club card and that gives me a 20% discount off "everything" in the store, so the prices definitely come out less for the premium dog food when I go that route. That said, they just reopened the other day after being closed since November due to moving, so I did wind up ordering it, and would have very much loved to know about Petflow then. We're another one out in the boonies, so our nearest pet super chain is about 70 miles away too, and like I said, I'd really rather support the Mom and Pop local stores if at all possible since it's a convenience to the whole community. :)
    • Like Like x 3
  6. Katja Henriksen

    Katja Henriksen Forum Sponsor Site Sponsor

    Guys I think it is time to stop beating this dead horse. There is no point in making your points as it is not going through. :scratch: I think everyone else understand each other and can see that we can agree to disagree. Not worth your time anymore girls. I know you have tried hard. ;) I gave up a while ago. :groan::pullhair:
    • Like Like x 5
  7. Denissov43

    Denissov43 Notable member

    I agree with Katja... and I think we agree to disagree in the future about other items I am sure!
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Che_mar_cody

    Che_mar_cody $ Forum Donor $

    For me it's the same a parenting a skin -kid. Each will have opinions of what is best as raising, feeding, discipline etc. We do the best that we can at the that time for them..yes now I'm talking about fur-kids too.
    As long as all of us do the best we can, there is nothing more to discuss. All of us love our pups like their family, that is the key factor.
    • Like Like x 7
  9. Julio Hernandez

    Julio Hernandez New Member

    Wow, the Dog food merry go round will never stop due to corporate greed.
    Companies have dumped millions of advertising on the words "shiny coat".
    Cheap chicken fat will give your dog a "shiny coat" and the human owner a false sense of general overall health.

    I feed the best kibble that I can afford at the time plus real meat, both muscle/organ both poultry/beef.
    Beef bones, blue ridge has made convenient 4/6/8 packs of real bones without the hassle of a second stop at the butcher shop.
    Turkey necks provide a nice balance of bone and meat.
    I also supplement at times with Nupro w/glucosamine and when working hard I use the electrolyte Nupro supplement as well as K-9 Power.
    Try Redbarn food rolls.....they rock!
    I give pups frozen chicken wings in the summer and warm them up in winter.....YOUR DOGS WILL THRIVE WITH MEAT!
    • Like Like x 3
  10. Denissov43

    Denissov43 Notable member

    Agreed Julio.... both hands up in agreement about raw meat and dogs... its a must in my view.... a good kibble like Acana or Orijen, or Taste of the Wild grain free's of course... are great, but there is simply NO substitute for raw meat added to a dogs diet for that dog to THRIVE, not just survive... we humans eat far to little RAW food and our diet needs it imperatively too... just not RAW meat for us. We have not the stomach acids and bile to break it down as we are not carnivores. But imagine feeding a wolf ONLY Old roy dog food... if you took him out of the wild... you might as well starve him and let him die... He wants meat... not something that Purina decided was good for him! That wolf knows whats best for him and so do our dogs. Give them a steak, or a slab of meat from the time they start eating real food and they will never want kibble. THey know whats best.... sadly we decide for them instead of letting them choose and offering them both to see which they would choose instead!
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Katja Henriksen

    Katja Henriksen Forum Sponsor Site Sponsor

    There's a difference between knowing what is best for you and eating what is available. It's all good comparing with the wolf, but first of all we have mutated the dog into something we want it too look like. We use the dog in ways it was never going to do as a wolf and we keep them inside our houses and let them sleep in our beds. I think the theory of treating them like wolves is all good but apparently only apply when it's convenient for us. Our dogs also don't get to travel, mate, hunt and do all the things wolves do. How about we treat them like dogs?

    Horses are also meant to just eat grass and eat grass all day long while traveling long distances. They are not meant to be ridden, kept in small stalls and paddocks with nothing for them to eat. However we do it anyway and we feed them grain which they would never eat in the wild. We use our animals in a way that is very unnatural compared to what they would do in the wild. We have bred bad feet, bad digestive issues and bad confirmation into them. Some dogs can't hardly breathe and some have to have help giving birth. So don't tell me that the dog has to have raw meat because that is what the wolf eats.
    • Like Like x 4
  12. Katja Henriksen

    Katja Henriksen Forum Sponsor Site Sponsor

    Well said.
    • Like Like x 2
  13. NorthernDobes

    NorthernDobes Member

    I have researched this subject to the max. And everyone had different anwsers & opinons.
    While I don't personaly think kibble alone could possibly meet the true needs of a dog. I do think it meets basic requirments.

    I read something about Wolves saying the Alpha male and female are always in better condition then the rest of the pack because they take the preferred organ meats and what not. Some people say that canines would get grain and such from the stomachs of the pray animals. claiming they are omnivores, while others will say strictly carnivore.

    My questions are can you feed both raw mixed with kibble? I have heard that you can not because of the digestion time of kibble is longer and a slow digestion would give the raw food a chance to infect the dog with ecoli and salmonella.

    I have read that feeding raw should be only small portions once a day, and some even say to "cleanse" once a month with a "no feed" day
    ....So much uncertainty.

    Since I'm so unsure of what is correct for adults I don't dare feed 100% raw. I don't mix raw and kibble together either. But what I do is feed Evo red meat formula or Innova red meat (I like the doberman on the bag) 5 days a week and raw on weekends when I have the extra time to prepare. Turkey necks, tripe, trout, chicken, moose and venison. And like the true rednecks we Mainers are, we get the venison and moose once or twice a year from the local game warden. We call and tell them we need one and when a car hits one, and it's not claimed they call and let us know and we go get it. Best thing is...It's FREE!. We also use a couple squirts of salmon oil on the kibble. And I'm not against throwing them leftover eggs from breakfast, veggies from supper or a uncooked beef bone for a snack. I just started using a dehydrator for training treats out of beef liver, venison and fish fillets. I think it's about balance of all things good.

    I'm completely unsure of what to feed the puppies though. They are getting 2cups 3 times a day of Innova puppy and nothing else. Any suggestions on feeding raw to puppies?
  14. Julio Hernandez

    Julio Hernandez New Member

    Northern Dobes,

    That sounds like a plan! I usually feed pups the same way, kibble then a raw meal like wing tips when they are young 6-8 weeks or so then gradually working up to full wings and/or raw or slightly warmed hamburger...warming it up a little bit makes it ten times more palatable, not fully cooked...just a little sizzle.

    If you guys have a dog that needs to gain weight you will need to look up "Satin Balls" on the internet for a recipe, this recipe works well!

    Here is a simple tip....feed good kibble as one meal in the a.m. and then one chicken leg quarter in the p.m. with hearts and livers every other day....this is economical, convenient, healthy....then skip a day on the tenth day or so...no meal!
    If you feel bad about this you can give the dog a good raw bone to devour on the off day like a knuckle.
    The digestive system needs a break!
    The dog will do fine....I do it myself and it keeps everyone healthy.
    • Like Like x 2
  15. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Just do a search for Satin Balls here on DCF and you will a lot of info! lol We post about it all the time! :D
  16. JanS

    JanS DCF Owner Administrative Staff Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    • Like Like x 1
  17. AxelRose

    AxelRose Well-Known Member

    Katja...I really love the way u think...it definately is correct about the wolf theory and the rest of the animals we have changed to fit into our world. Dogs are total mutations of the wolf..far far from the horse though, living in a world of chemicals among us. But I have a question that I asked myself just the other day...Evolution of the species 'dog'...Why have their teeth not changed? May seem like a stupid question, but with thousands of years of change, and us feeding them chew food, why do they still have sharp canines and pointed molars?...Maybe I should start a new thread...lol.;)
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Julio Hernandez

    Julio Hernandez New Member

    Axel Rose,

    Great question regarding the canines!
    What also goes hand in hand with your question is the decrease in certain breed's prey drive as opposd to other breeds having an extremely high prey drive, also what else is interesting is how a dogs prey drive can be built with humans teaching them and not just other dogs. (I teach my dogs to retrieve with another dog that already knows how to retrieve)
    ******The reason why I bring this up is because "canines" (teeth used for tearing and puncturing) are useless without prey drive (the inner primal desire to chase) if the dog is left in the wild.*******

    Don't worry though, just as we have had people breed bad traits into dogs we will soon have someone breed a "canine-less" animal. lol! :pullhair:
  19. Denissov43

    Denissov43 Notable member

    Axel; the reason is obvious... they have not evolved out of being a carnivore or they would have evolved teeth to crush and masticate their food and break it down. They would have also changed the length of their lower intestine and the amount of hydrocholic acid that they have and their gall bladder and their pancreas...

    Dogs and cats have the internal anatomy and physiology of a carnivore (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a highly elastic stomach designed to hold large quantities of meat, bone, organs, and hide. Their stomachs are simple, with an undeveloped caecum (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999.Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a relatively short foregut and a short, smooth, unsacculated colon. This means food passes through quickly. Vegetable and plant matter, however, needs time to sit and ferment. This equates to longer, sacculated colons, larger and longer small intestines, and occasionally the presence of a caecum. Dogs have none of these, but have the shorter foregut and hindgut consistent with carnivorous animals. This explains why plant matter comes out the same way it came in; there was no time for it to be broken down and digested (among other things). People know this; this is why they tell you that vegetables and grains have to be preprocessed for your dog to get anything out of them. But even then, feeding vegetables and grains to a carnivorous animal is a questionable practice.
    Dogs do not normally produce the necessary enzymes in their saliva (amylase, for example) to start the break-down of carbohydrates and starches; amylase in saliva is something omnivorous and herbivorous animals possess, but not carnivorous animals. This places the burden entirely on the pancreas, forcing it to produce large amounts of amylase to deal with the starch, cellulose, and carbohydrates in plant matter. Thus, feeding dogs as though they were omnivores taxes the pancreas and places extra strain on it, as it must work harder for the dog to digest the starchy, carbohydrate-filled food instead of just producing normal amounts of the enzymes needed to digest proteins and fats (which, when fed raw, begin to "self-digest" when the cells are crushed through chewing and tearing and their enzymes are released).
    Nor do dogs have the kinds of friendly bacteria that break down cellulose and starch for them. As a result, most of the nutrients contained in plant matter—even preprocessed plant matter—are unavailable to dogs. This is why dog food manufacturers have to add such high amounts of synthetic vitamins and minerals (the fact that cooking destroys all the vitamins and minerals and thus creates the need for supplementation aside) to their dog foods. If a dog can only digest 40-60% of its grain-based food, then it will only be receiving 40-60% (ideally!) of the vitamins and minerals it needs. To compensate for this, the manufacturer must add a higher concentration of vitamins and minerals than the dog actually needs.
    Is the dog an omnivore? Its dentition, internal and external anatomy, and physiology say it is not. Even its evolutionary history (discussed later) says the dog is a carnivore. So when people tell you the dog is an omnivore, ask: "What about this animal makes you think it is an omnivore?"

    So would the internal and dental relations to carnivores cousin's wolves stay unchanged after hundreds of years of breeding them? If so.... they why have they not? IF they were as it is being postulated here "no longer related to their closest cousin... then they would have changed many things internally IF they had 'evolved' as suggested by Katja's logic.
    this is why the 'argument' that 'domesticated dogs and cats' are not related to their cousins, wild dogs, wolves, jackals, coyote's and wild cats is completely unfounded in logic and or science... just speculation..

    They are not equipped with large flat molars for grinding up plant matter. Their molars are pointed and situated in a scissors bite (along with the rest of their teeth) that powerfully disposes of meat, bone, and hide. Carnivores are equipped with a peculiar set of teeth that includes the presence of carnassial teeth: the fourth upper premolar and first lower molar.

    They are.... still equipped with this dentition and when looking at the skull of an animal we can determine what specifically it was 'built/designed' to injest..
    plain and simple.
    the argument is simple if one wants to break it down to the smallest common denominator and if you do...
    your point makes mine obvious... they are still a canid related 98% to the wolf.. therefore they should at least be fed like nature intended them to eat...
    should'nt they? and if not... why and where do you find this demonstrated in nature and physiology?

    This translates to a simple fact: everything about a dog or cat's body design says they were designed for a carnivorous, hunting lifestyle geared toward killing prey. However, humans have done some major tinkering with this body design (resulting in varying sizes and conformations), but we have done nothing to change the internal anatomy and physiology of our carnivorous canines.

    • Like Like x 1
  20. Katja Henriksen

    Katja Henriksen Forum Sponsor Site Sponsor

    I never said they weren't closely related to the wolf etc. What I am saying is that we humans only want to treat them like wolves when it suits into our plans.
    Also, why do we humans still have a coat (as in body hair) when we don't need it? I don't think that really basic things like digestive systems and teeth change easily just because we mutate the looks of a dog.

    Anyway I'm not going to discuss this with you anymore Susie.

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