Are More US Doberowners Leaving Their Dobes Uncropped and Undocked?

[DreamValley]

Susan I wanted to emphasize that genetic health problems in Dobermans are much higher risk for the breed destruction than cropping and docking ban.
Unfortunately I see many poor bred Dobermans with cropped ears. Many of them goes through 2 major surgeries before they are 1 year old and die at 3-5. That's very painful to watch.

 

[obbanner]

For the record, I personally love the show crop. I can read those ears and tell what they're thinking at a glance. I know when my dog is up, I know when he's confused and I know when he's down, and I can adjust accordingly. Even in the ring when I can't see enough of the body to read body language, I can tell out of the corner of my eye what's going on in the little doberbrain by the ears. A horse owner knows how much you can read from their ears, and cropped Dobies are the same.

All my dogs except for Anna are dogs that for some reason didn't cut it in conformation and the breeders were looking for a good home. I would take a dog with uncropped ears and almost did recently except the puppy didn't get along with Cooper. That breeder said she didn't have the time to post the ears of a dog she wouldn't be showing. Like D4E, I have a problem with breeders who are selling uncropped and undocked dogs because they're de facto redefining the breed standard.

One of the few advantages of being around for six decades is you see the same things played out over and over, so when a situation comes up, you know how it's going to end. We're being set up to have our breed taken away from us. If you want your dogs with uncropped ears and undocked tails, that's fine, but fight the laws that are sponsored by people who don't have the animals best interests at heart and are looking for a cause to raise money and get publicity while 'doing good'. Unfortunately, too many causes are sinecures for charlatans who have to constantly keep the pot boiling to raise money.

I know this topic is going to go around and around, and those with their minds made up won't be converted. I think the discussion is worthwhile for those new to the topic and want to know both sides.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Susan I wanted to emphasize that genetic health problems in Dobermans are much higher risk for the breed destruction than cropping and docking ban.
Unfortunately I see many poor bred Dobermans with cropped ears. Many of them goes through 2 major surgeries before they are 1 year old and die at 3-5. That's very painful to watch.

In any given breed some will die young some lold and some somewhere inbetween. You see DV there are a lot of us who have not seen all these dogs dying at 3.5 - I don't reat about them that often on all the Doberman list I am on to really raise a red flag and I am betting that you don't personally know that many either. You may have heard the rumors but you have already said you accept the rumors.

Is it sad when we loose a young one yes. Is it great when one beats all odds and lives past 12 YES. The AR groups planted a seed - ALL PUREBRED DOGS ARE UNHEALTHY - and I challenge you to to go visit several vet offices and sit in the waiting room and see what is closer to the truth. All dogs - purebred, mutts mixed and designer dogs have problems ESPECAILLY when breeders are NOT adhering to the standard and good breeding practices.

I see dogs so crippled by poor conformation that it is heartbreaking - then every once in a while a really nicely bred dog comes in and they are the exception. The world has bought into the AR groups that breeders are the problem for overpopulation (yet we are importing dogs from shelters), poor health, and our basic rights to maintain standards for our dogs.

Fortunatley the majority of "good" breeders do their best to adhere to the standard of their particular breed. But allowing the AR groups to sell their bill of goods and then to have good pet owners buy into it is killing the sport of purebred dogs. Do you really want to hand it over to them. With my last breath I will fight for these dogs and do all I can to overcome the false bravado of the AR groups and their crooked agenda that purebred dogs are unhealthy and dropping like flies.

IF that were true then we would never have a day when we did not read about another or several 3 year olds dropping dead of poor genetic breeding. It just is not there. We must come out of our little worlds and see the big picture. We are loosing the battle on c/d, BSL and the very right to breed and own dogs. That is the truth and we had better wake up and get real.I used to love to watch the boxers and the danes at shows. Now I just GAG as more than half are dumied down with no presence.

Whether my puppies will show or not has nothing to do with cropping - ALL puppies are cropped at 7 weeks long before I make my final decision on who is and who is not BUT ALL are Dobermans cropped and docked.

 

[DreamValley]

Just recent huge losses:
Sharon lost Bree. The dog was only 3.
Carol lost Petey. He was not even 5.
They both were beautiful and very much loved dogs. Sad.

 

[Dobs4ever]

don't even know when and where this notion of C/D being 'barbaric' came from

It came straight from the bleeding heart AR groups who found a small thread to cling to that exploded on the world as they posted horrible pictures of puppies being placed on the chopping block (another BYB or worse tactic) as no respectible breeder would put any dog through that and people ALL said yes we must stop it.

Now look what has followed on a very good idea - Now they have turned the vets into ER extremetists who are claiming cropping is wrong while they think nothing or shoving unnecessary vaccines down your throats which is the real crime and does far more damage. They think nothing of ripping out uterus and testicles - that is just as barbaric - so if we stop one surgery then we have to stop all surgeries.

It is a standard - A standard is what separates a mutt from a purebred dog. A standard sets everything as it should be for any particular breed. - IT IS NOT ABOUT CROPPING AND DOCKING - it is about LOOSING the standard and the breed will soon follow. For those of us who actually do something with our dogs and work them it is much easier to deal with cropped ears and NO TAIL to get injured and YES Herr Dobermann tried to breed in the tailess dog like the bull dogs - the dogs were sterile and did not live long so he gave up BUT he tried. He did not want a tail on his Dobermann - I am sorry of those of you who lost the right to crop and dock. Someone was asleep at the wheel when that was passed through the breed clubs for sure -

It stands to reason if you want a soft look you prefer a soft dog so then do we throw temperament out because we sure don't want a soft dog biting anyone???

To add - Welll DV the point you seem to miss is that is 2 out of 10,000 so not the big problem you would love to make it.

What about Foxfire's magic dragon- diagnosed with DCM at about 3 pulled from the breeding gene pool - turned 8 in July and they have had him off neds for 2 or 3 years because now they can't find the DCM - gosh just one little misdiagnosis.

 

[DreamValley]

How do you know it's 2 of 10,000?

My major points are:
1. We need strict breeding regulations to stop BYBs and control pet food production more than cropping and docking ban at the moment.
2. Natural Dobermans don't destruct the breed. That's total bullshit... sorry.

 

[Dobs4ever]

DV you live in a dream world - DREAM VALLEY maybe - the point is yes while it is alwasy tragic for anyone to loose a pet it is far worst to loose a breed especaiily if you are talking about the Doberman breed. If there are no dogs then we won't have to worry about the pet food at all.

We do not need strict "RULES" to outlaw BYB - The point is we don't need any rules that are set by the government regarding dogs. The "rules" need to lay squarely with the breed clubs for each breed. As long as people feel the standard is not important then BYB are just as good as anyone else.

Unfortunately I see many poor bred Dobermans with cropped ears. Many of them goes through 2 major surgeries before they are 1 year old and die at 3-5. That's very painful to watch.

So please tell us also where you see all these poorly bred cropped dogs? I would think you see far more uncropped since that is what you support. Did you read the post where Quee said more than 60% of the dog in rescue were UNCROPPED - gosh I wonder why - Rescue will tell you they are also harder to place. That is an actual figure.

So do you see these poor examples at shows??? Where do you see them and exactly how many not one of your exaggerations please just facts. You see since uncropped is a deviation to be penalized how can you who claim you want to show a dog you said you would not show because she got to big now you are going to show and you can see how the standard quickly is cast aside when someone wants to do their own thing.

The standard protects our breed and cropped and docked is part of that standard. So which is it - c/d doesn't matter - oversized doesn't matter, cow hocked is Ok, missing teeth is not a biggy, stove piped neck - no problem - WHERE do you stop it once one part falls???

To add: Sorry forgot to address this one 2 out of 10,000 - ONLY 10,000 Doberman reg last year. Did you read where reg have dropped to near critical #'s. So you know 2 out of 20,000 that died but that does not mean the breed is in grave danger due to health issues which are another AR propaganda project.

 

[DreamValley]

So do you see these poor examples at shows??? Where do you see them and exactly how many not one of your exaggerations please just facts. You see since uncropped is a deviation to be penalized how can you who claim you want to show a dog you said you would not show because she got to big now you are going to show and you can see how the standard quickly is cast aside when someone wants to do their own thing.

You mentioned my dog and I will answer you.
Uncropped Dobermans are not penalized in Canada. They are in the breed standard.
My female Asha is perfectly built beautiful female who is 1/2" taller than standard will be shown in CKC.
Dog handlers pushed me to do it.

...you said you would not show because she got to big now you are going to show and you can see how the standard quickly is cast aside when someone wants to do their own thing.

Be realistic Susan. You don't have perfect Dobermans either. Most dogs in the show ring have some flaws.

 

[Marinegeekswife]

I do not want the appearance of this breed dummied down. Anytime you speak to someone who wants uncropped - first they are not even aware for the most part what a purebred standard is and they want a softer look. The word softer is never found anywhere in our standard and goes against everything that the description of the doberman represents.

This sums up one of my biggest problems with this. The point of the Doberman, the whole reason they were created was to intimidate. Taking away the cropped and docked look DOES take away that factor. Like D4E said, that is a lot of why people don't like to do it. I'm sorry but that means you are LYING and making your dog lie! Everyone laughs at that website with the poodle disguises but by not cropping and docking you are doing essentially the same thing. Now, that is not a slight against anyone with natural dogs, especially if they are that way by law. This is about those that choose to keep their dogs that way just so they don't look intimidating. You are denying the very nature and history of the Doberman. Besides that I would much rather my dogs look intimidating and the bad guy decide on that alone to not approach than look nice and have to actually bite. That is so much more trouble for the dog mentally and with the law.

They love there ears rubbed when they are cropped also. I know mine do.

Absolutely! Dogs love ear rubs whether they are cropped or not. That is another lie I've heard about cropping, that it hurts the pup and they don't want their ears messed with after that. Not true at all. River has only been cropped for 17 weeks, so of my two she is the most likely to remember it...she doesn't. I was just rubbing her ears last night. Beyond that I was able to handle both dogs' ears shortly after their crops and neither acted like they were in pain or bothered.

I know this issue strikes the very heart of us all and it will always be split down the middle with folks siding on one or the other, defending to the death our right to Crop or not. But for me, no matter how much I love all Dobermans, cropped or not, the bottom line is I do not want to change the breed standards on ANY of our breeds. Not just Dobies. For me it's not about not having a tail to swipe a table clean, or ears that can hear better.........for me it's all about STANDARD. When I look at a Dog Breed book I can pick out each breed because it's recognizable! Perhaps I'm old school and the 'new generation' will slowly loose that recognition with the crop and dock taken away. Everything is getting so politically correct. If we don't fight this, it will go too.

Hear hear!

For the record, I personally love the show crop. I can read those ears and tell what they're thinking at a glance. I know when my dog is up, I know when he's confused and I know when he's down, and I can adjust accordingly. Even in the ring when I can't see enough of the body to read body language, I can tell out of the corner of my eye what's going on in the little doberbrain by the ears. A horse owner knows how much you can read from their ears, and cropped Dobies are the same.

All my dogs except for Anna are dogs that for some reason didn't cut it in conformation and the breeders were looking for a good home. I would take a dog with uncropped ears and almost did recently except the puppy didn't get along with Cooper. That breeder said she didn't have the time to post the ears of a dog she wouldn't be showing. Like D4E, I have a problem with breeders who are selling uncropped and undocked dogs because they're de facto redefining the breed standard.

One of the few advantages of being around for six decades is you see the same things played out over and over, so when a situation comes up, you know how it's going to end. We're being set up to have our breed taken away from us. If you want your dogs with uncropped ears and undocked tails, that's fine, but fight the laws that are sponsored by people who don't have the animals best interests at heart and are looking for a cause to raise money and get publicity while 'doing good'. Unfortunately, too many causes are sinecures for charlatans who have to constantly keep the pot boiling to raise money.

I know this topic is going to go around and around, and those with their minds made up won't be converted. I think the discussion is worthwhile for those new to the topic and want to know both sides.

Art, I can't pull any one thing from your post because every bit of it is relevant and appropriate. People that talk about the cropped ears and docked tail limiting their communication just may not be paying close enough attention. They are so expressive with both that no, I don't believe they are limited. With the tail they can still tuck them, hold them up, hold them neutral, wag them fast or slow, etc.
And a just plain "hear hear!" for the last part.

 

[DreamValley]

For Susan... from CKC standard:

"Ears either cropped or uncropped. The upper attachment of the ear, when alert, should be on a level with the top of the skull. If cropped, the ears should be well trimmed and carried erect. If uncropped, they should be small and neat, and set high on the head.

Size
Height at withers -- males, ideal 27-1/2 inches (70 cm); females, ideal 25-1/2 inches (65 cm). Males, decidedly masculine, without coarseness. Females, decidedly feminine, without over-refinement. Deviation from ideal height to be penalized in proportion to the amount of deviation."
Note there are no exact measurements besides the ideal size.
Perhaps you know that males over 28" is more popular in the show ring these days.

 

[obbanner]

People that talk about the cropped ears and docked tail limiting their communication just may not be paying close enough attention. They are so expressive with both that no, I don't believe they are limited. With the tail they can still tuck them, hold them up, hold them neutral, wag them fast or slow, etc.

This isn't a picture I intended to share. It's one I like a lot because it tells me so much, but isn't particularly interesting to anyone else. It's so Doberdoggy, I get a warm fuzzy looking at it.

Cooper and I are leaving the ring after he turned in a performance with which I was very pleased. Cooper is very up. His eyes are outside the ring alertly doing his guard dog stuff, even though I didn't feel threatened very much . His ears are pointed back so he knows where I am and what I'm doing. His tail is up because he's happy and confident.

 

[Marinegeekswife]

Cooper and I are leaving the ring after he turned in a performance with which I was very pleased. Cooper is very up. His eyes are outside the ring alertly doing his guard dog stuff, even though I didn't feel threatened very much . His ears are pointed back so he knows where I am and what I'm doing. His tail is up because he's happy and confident.

Exactly! I love that you shared that so I'll echo the point with a few of my own....or I would if Photobucket were working. I'll have to try again later.

 

[Quee]

For the record, I personally love the show crop. I can read those ears and tell what they're thinking at a glance. I know when my dog is up, I know when he's confused and I know when he's down, and I can adjust accordingly. Even in the ring when I can't see enough of the body to read body language, I can tell out of the corner of my eye what's going on in the little doberbrain by the ears. A horse owner knows how much you can read from their ears, and cropped Dobies are the same.

All my dogs except for Anna are dogs that for some reason didn't cut it in conformation and the breeders were looking for a good home. I would take a dog with uncropped ears and almost did recently except the puppy didn't get along with Cooper. That breeder said she didn't have the time to post the ears of a dog she wouldn't be showing. Like D4E, I have a problem with breeders who are selling uncropped and undocked dogs because they're de facto redefining the breed standard.

One of the few advantages of being around for six decades is you see the same things played out over and over, so when a situation comes up, you know how it's going to end. We're being set up to have our breed taken away from us. If you want your dogs with uncropped ears and undocked tails, that's fine, but fight the laws that are sponsored by people who don't have the animals best interests at heart and are looking for a cause to raise money and get publicity while 'doing good'. Unfortunately, too many causes are sinecures for charlatans who have to constantly keep the pot boiling to raise money.

I know this topic is going to go around and around, and those with their minds made up won't be converted. I think the discussion is worthwhile for those new to the topic and want to know both sides.

Thank you Obanner! Even though we seem to be on opposite sides of the discussion, I appreciate how you responded and it's comments like yours that keep the debate civil and help those of us who like the natural look supportive of those who choose docking and cropping as well.

Also thank you for teaching me a new word I had to look up 'sinecure' (and a related term - 'benefice') to get the full gist of how you were using the word. I love new words!

Quee

 

[michellewallace]

Absolutely! Dogs love ear rubs whether they are cropped or not. That is another lie I've heard about cropping, that it hurts the pup and they don't want their ears messed with after that. Not true at all. River has only been cropped for 17 weeks, so of my two she is the most likely to remember it...she doesn't. I was just rubbing her ears last night. Beyond that I was able to handle both dogs' ears shortly after their crops and neither acted like they were in pain or bothered.

Eli has only been cropped for 2 weeks and he is still healing from that, but he loves when I rub his ears also. He doesn't show any signs of pain or discomfort either. Him and Nonnie play a little rough at times too and he still doesn't show any signs of pain or discomfort.

For the record, I personally love the show crop. I can read those ears and tell what they're thinking at a glance. I know when my dog is up, I know when he's confused and I know when he's down, and I can adjust accordingly. Even in the ring when I can't see enough of the body to read body language, I can tell out of the corner of my eye what's going on in the little doberbrain by the ears. A horse owner knows how much you can read from their ears, and cropped Dobies are the same.

I also agree with this. I can tell what Nonnie is thinking with her ears too, she may not have a show crop, or even a perfect crop for a Doberman, but her ears make her and I can tell what she's thinking when I look at her ears too, play, protection, concentration....whatever it is, I can tell what she's doing by the look of her ears.

 

[obbanner]

Thank you Obanner! Even though we seem to be on opposite sides of the discussion, I appreciate how you responded and it's comments like yours that keep the debate civil and help those of us who like the natural look supportive of those who choose docking and cropping as well.

Also thank you for teaching me a new word I had to look up 'sinecure' (and a related term - 'benefice') to get the full gist of how you were using the word. I love new words!

Quee

Thank you back! Firefox has a plugin for answer.com that you can easily use to get the definition of a word. Hold down the ALT key and click the cursor on the word and answer.com will put up a box with the definition.

http://www.answers.com/main/firefox_plugins.jsp

 

[DreamValley]

Cooper is a stunning boy and one of my favorite dogs here
Thanks for posting his picture.

 

[Quee]

Eli has only been cropped for 2 weeks and he is still healing from that, but he loves when I rub his ears also. He doesn't show any signs of pain or discomfort either. Him and Nonnie play a little rough at times too and he still doesn't show any signs of pain or discomfort.



I also agree with this. I can tell what Nonnie is thinking with her ears too, she may not have a show crop, or even a perfect crop for a Doberman, but her ears make her and I can tell what she's thinking when I look at her ears too, play, protection, concentration....whatever it is, I can tell what she's doing by the look of her ears.

I agree, but with my uncropped Doberman I can also tell what she's thinking by her ears too. Her ears stand straight up like they've been posted when she's on high alert, and when she's threatened (or about to deal with a threat) they lay straight back. When she's into an activity they stick out like wings, and when she's tired or sleeping they're completely down. When they're half up half down like in my avatar, or standing up but folded over, it's usually accompanied by a quizzical expression like 'what's going on mom?' She also does the radar detection thing with her ears when she's trying to get a bead on a sound. I know she'd have somewhat different ear signals if she were cropped - either way they're all smart enough to figure out how to tell us what's going on in their beautiful heads.

 

[obbanner]

Cooper is a stunning boy and one of my favorite dogs here
Thanks for posting his picture.

Thank you. I'm hoping I don't turn off people who have uncropped ears because all our dogs are beautiful and fantastic companions.

 

[Lizzard]

I like the look of the dogs both ways, cropped or natural. Marco has a docked tail, but his ears are natural.

Personally, I am TOO LAZY to deal with ear cropping/posting and TOO MUCH OF A PERFECTIONIST to be ok with it if it turned out badly. Lucky for me, I love the natural ears, I really do. And I don't try to *hide* my dog's identity behind his floppy ears, either. Marco is my Big Scary DoberLove - even with his floppy ears, he's way intimidating - no one questions what kind of dog he is when he's barking!!

I don't think that whether someone does or does not crop ears/tail makes that person any better or worse of a dog owner or breeder, but I will say that I do appreciate having had the choice from my breeder.

 

[Marinegeekswife]

And I don't try to *hide* my dog's identity behind his floppy ears, either. Marco is my Big Scary DoberLove - even with his floppy ears, he's way intimidating - no one questions what kind of dog he is when he's barking!!

But that's the thing Liz, you guys may not have done it with that motivation but others do. Its no less lying to do so with that motivation than to dress your dog up to look like another breed or claim they are something else.