Are More US Doberowners Leaving Their Dobes Uncropped and Undocked?

[Quee]

So is it just me, or are more US owners leaving their Dobermans uncropped and undocked? I just browsed the user albums, and it looks like there are quite a few Dobies with their ears and tails intact. What do you think of this trend as a Doberowner?

I think it's great. My last Doberman (20+ years ago mind you) was a Doberman/Malmute mix, and had both his ears and tail intact. I thought it was great, and we never had any problem with his ears or his tail (I'll have to find some old pictures of him and post them too). My latest Doberman has intact ears, and a well-cropped tail (right after the 1st vertebrae I think). It took me a bit of getting used to her docked tail - I was afraid to touch her little nubbie at first, but she loves booty scratches so she trained me pretty quickly. It also took some getting used to being able to read her body language without a tail, but I adjusted to that too.

 

[Gelcoater]

Ours has intact ears and a docked tail.Honestly I don't miss the tail much,she doesn't seem to either.It is nice as she's an inside dog that she doesn't thwack people,thump the floor or clear the coffee table with it when she gets excited. In a way I wish we would have done the ears too,sometimes not.She loves me to scratch and fold and rub her ears,I don't know if she would so much had she had to deal with all the ear drama as a pup/youngster.

 

[CindyBee]

Leia has her tail docked but natural ears. We considered cropping, but finally decided not to. She loves her ears played with and rubbed too!

 

[michellewallace]

I think people in the US are leaving ears natural, but I wouldn't even say most. I think that most of the Dobe owners in the US crop and they are docked within a few days of birth. I think the pictures you've seen around on the site are from owners over in the countries in Europe where both docking and cropping are banned. I also think if it's a mix of Dobe and something else, they don't get docked, but every breeder I've looked at have the tails done within a few days of birth.

 

[Judith]

I think people in the US are leaving ears natural, but I wouldn't even say most. I think that most of the Dobe owners in the US crop and they are docked within a few days of birth. I think the pictures you've seen around on the site are from owners over in the countries in Europe where both docking and cropping are banned. I also think if it's a mix of Dobe and something else, they don't get docked, but every breeder I've looked at have the tails done within a few days of birth.

yes i agree, the ones you see are mostly our from Europe on here but their are one or two from the US, I know it is not in the standard for a Dobe, but it is illegal over here , personally i love Bella and Buddy's ears and tails they way they fly about and wag makes me laugh they are still the same on the inside and i just love the Dobes thinking brain and their personality and the fact they do things just to make you laugh, I would like the breeders to give the new owners a choice as more people might take them up on leaving them with tails as they are done so young, but i say it's just a little more Dobe to love

 

[Ingrid H]

In the US, natural ears seem to be gaining in popularity as more breeders are giving people that choice of cropped or natural, but tails are most often docked at three days of age. I too think the natural tails you are seeing are on the European dogs.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Unfortunately it is a tred which if it succeeds will end up in the destruction our our breed. The standard has always called for a cropped and docked dog. As a breeder who strongly supports the standard of our dogs all my puppies go cropped and docked. They are cropped at 7 weeks and you don't grade for show til 8 so they all need that time.

Pet people do not understanbd how close we are to loosing our rights and every uncropped dogs puts another nail in the coffin of the breed. Why do I say that Australia just banned cropping and docking Doberman reg dropped 50% the first year it was in place.

Please go read the Discuss the breed standard - and begin to honestly learn about purebred dogs. They were bred with a specific purpose and look. From that a standard was developed to make usre everyone tried to follow it.

I turn people away who want a natural ear. Then get a dog that is drop earred and let the Doberman alone.

I have had people tell me that it is not recognized as a Doberman so people are not immediately afraid of it. Well that is lying to folks. Trying to hide what our dogs are is misleading and is going to cause someone to get hurt.

When you see any purebred dog is is suppose to be immediately recognizable. If we destroy the standard and reg drop like they have every where else then we will not have a large enough gene pool to keep the breed going.

Purbred dogs are not suppose to fall prey to fads and fashion - our standard is to protect that. In Europe many of the breeders now have to send their dogs else where to countries that still allow cropping and docking - American is the last hold on the world and DPCA has taken a firm stand to not waffle on our standard. We know that the dogs are already in danger - if the shoe drops and cropping and docking is banned here - they BYB will celebrate for joy because they are too cheap to crop anyway. For true Doberman Fanciers and breeders it will be the end and downfall of a great breed.

If someone does not want to follow a standard then they really would do better to save their money and get a drop earred mutt or choose a breed with a dropped ear. In Honor of Herr Dobermann the creator of our breed as a breeder I completely support his standard and his belief that the dogs he created were to be cropped and docked.
That's why we have a standard to protect the breed as intended. It is not just a matter of you like the look better - it is not the standard. If you want a purebreed then it means you like that particular dog for specific reasons and those reasons are what made the dog all that it is.

You say it is cosmetic I say baloney - Ask anyone who has had a tail slammed in the door how much pain and suffering to have to dock the tail on an mature dog??? Dogs with dropped ears are more prone to continual ear infections. When my guys are working those ears are like radar antenaes - rotating in every directions to pick up ever sound. So it does not help them hear better but it does help them pin point from exactly which direction the sound is coming from.

I won't even start on our American rights and freedoms that are being trampled underfoot with each stupit law like this that passes. WE - AMERICA is the last stand for this freedom for breed clubs to have a standard. If they succeed in destroying our rights to have maintain standards then there is no reason to have any purebred dog.

 

[StarlightDobe]

Unfortunately it is a tred which if it succeeds will end up in the destruction our our breed. The standard has always called for a cropped and docked dog. As a breeder who strongly supports the standard of our dogs all my puppies go cropped and docked. They are cropped at 7 weeks and you don't grade for show til 8 so they all need that time.

Pet people do not understanbd how close we are to loosing our rights and every uncropped dogs puts another nail in the coffin of the breed. Why do I say that Australia just banned cropping and docking Doberman reg dropped 50% the first year it was in place.

Please go read the Discuss the breed standard - and begin to honestly learn about purebred dogs. They were bred with a specific purpose and look. From that a standard was developed to make usre everyone tried to follow it.

I turn people away who want a natural ear. Then get a dog that is drop earred and let the Doberman alone.

I have had people tell me that it is not recognized as a Doberman so people are not immediately afraid of it. Well that is lying to folks. Trying to hide what our dogs are is misleading and is going to cause someone to get hurt.

When you see any purebred dog is is suppose to be immediately recognizable. If we destroy the standard and reg drop like they have every where else then we will not have a large enough gene pool to keep the breed going.

Purbred dogs are not suppose to fall prey to fads and fashion - our standard is to protect that. In Europe many of the breeders now have to send their dogs else where to countries that still allow cropping and docking - American is the last hold on the world and DPCA has taken a firm stand to not waffle on our standard. We know that the dogs are already in danger - if the shoe drops and cropping and docking is banned here - they BYB will celebrate for joy because they are too cheap to crop anyway. For true Doberman Fanciers and breeders it will be the end and downfall of a great breed.

If someone does not want to follow a standard then they really would do better to save their money and get a drop earred mutt or choose a breed with a dropped ear. In Honor of Herr Dobermann the creator of our breed as a breeder I completely support his standard and his belief that the dogs he created were to be cropped and docked.
That's why we have a standard to protect the breed as intended. It is not just a matter of you like the look better - it is not the standard. If you want a purebreed then it means you like that particular dog for specific reasons and those reasons are what made the dog all that it is.

You say it is cosmetic I say baloney - Ask anyone who has had a tail slammed in the door how much pain and suffering to have to dock the tail on an mature dog??? Dogs with dropped ears are more prone to continual ear infections. When my guys are working those ears are like radar antenaes - rotating in every directions to pick up ever sound. So it does not help them hear better but it does help them pin point from exactly which direction the sound is coming from.

I won't even start on our American rights and freedoms that are being trampled underfoot with each stupit law like this that passes. WE - AMERICA is the last stand for this freedom for breed clubs to have a standard. If they succeed in destroying our rights to have maintain standards then there is no reason to have any purebred dog.

You have stated this better than anyone I have read to date! I have been attacked for cropping my dogs ears, and I stand up to anyone who challenges my right to crop, regardless of my reasons. I dont give a crap who thinks my reasons are selfish or that I am causing my dog undue harm and pain, it is NOT true. I have had 4 dobes cropped and not one have suffered any pain at all after the surgery. When my little blue, Shadow died only weeks after having his ears done, I had so many people try to blame it on the crop and I had to shove vet records in their face proving he died of parvo. He was well past the time when his operation would have weakened his immune system making him more susceptible and my vet reassured me so many times it had nothing to do with his illness. His older brother, who had already had the ears cropped 4 weeks prior to Shadow also got sick so I believed my vet when he told me it had nothing to do iwth it.
So many people try to grab onto stupid propaganda surrounding ear cropping and shove it at uneducated dog owners or prospective dog owners it makes me irate. I try at every chance I get to try to set people straight about ear cropping and docking of tails. I feel we owe it to our breed to keep them as they were intended.

 

[Dobs4ever]

The top breeders who really care about our breed understand so much more about the imporatance of a standard regardless of the breed. If we do not up hold the standard here we are the last hope for our dogs. MOST people want cropped dogs. The BYB who do not crop becaue they are too cheap and leave it up to their pet owners have caused a lot of the problem. When people who are not experienced and used to ear cropping have to struggle with it then they never want to go through it again and I don't blame them.

When puppies are cropped and kept with their litter mates it does not even phase them. When a puppy is sent out uncropped and already stressed being in a new home it just doubles the problems again. Breeders and pet owners had better wake up. REQUIRE your breeder to crop the ears - if they don't then I guarantee you it is about the money, it is about the pride in what your prruce and it is about the love of the breed AND its standard.

If we all just breed what we like pretty soon the doberman would not be recognizable. The standard must be our bible and guide when breeding and caring for our puppies. A purebred dog standard is not about everyone doing what they want. It is about preserving that breed with all its characteristics.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Breeders and pet owners had better wake up. REQUIRE your breeder to crop the ears - if they don't then I guarantee you it is about the money, it is about the pride in what your prruce and it is about the love of the breed AND its standard.

Sorry this should say - Breeders and pet owners had better wake up. REQUIRE your breeder to crop the ears - if they don't then I guarantee you it is about the money, it is NOT about the pride in what your produce and it is NOT about the love of the breed AND its standard.

I have to watch my double negatives sometimes I trip myself up. Sorry - Breeders who are involved int he sport of the purebred dog must take great pride in what they produca and their measurement must be the standard that we are sworn just by the nature of the beast to uphold.

Unfortunatly many innocent poeple do not even realize the harm they are doing by leaving thier dogs uncropped since it is "JUST A PET" For gosh sakes. Just a pet who prepresents the breed and the breeder for its entire live.

Let's crop those puppies and let's stand up for our rights.

 

[DreamValley]

Unfortunately it is a tred which if it succeeds will end up in the destruction our our breed.

You repeated it many times Susan but I would never understand or accept your statement.

I love Doberman breed for their intelligence and devotion. My preference is natural Doberman but I would never judge an owner who crops and docks.
ACK standard doesn't accept the natural look yet. CKC allows it and most Canadian breeders give owners a choice.

Just a pet? Dobermans with natural ears succeed in Sch as much as cropped ones
I will show Asha with natural ears in Canada... she is not "just a pet".

 

[Marinegeekswife]

You repeated it many times Susan but I would never understand or accept your statement.

I think what she's trying to get at is this is where it starts. First we allow a deviation from breeding to the standard with not cropping and docking then what? Too tall? Too short? Swan neck? Etc. The laws banning cropping and docking are also where it starts. First they regulate that, then what? How many dogs you can own? What activities you can do? There is a previous pattern of this kind of behavior. It is human nature to push the line and not always in a positive way.

 

[DreamValley]

Jess thank you for explanation.
Germany introduced cropping and docking ban in 1998... and Doberman breed didn't disappear there.
The focus has been shifted to genetic health issues in Dobermans there and they made a good progress.

 

[Katja Henriksen]

Quee I agree with the others that you have probably seen pictures of the dogs bred abroad as well as some of the Canadian/US dogs where the owners choose to keep the ears natural. I don't know if it is becoming a trend to keep them natural, but it may be more accepted than earlier due to many of the European countries banning it. Regardless of body parts they are all amazing dogs. We would love to see some pictures of your past and present dogs.

This discussion is getting a bit tedious. We are never going to agree on this and I don't think there is any reason to be aggressive about it. The non cropped and docked Dobies are no less of a Dobie and no less worth as a working or show dog than the ones that have had the surgery, so please don't make it sound like it's the death of the breed. Suzan if you had ever had an intact dog that you loved and that showed you that they are still the same dog regardless of the size/length of the ears and tail you may change your mind. I personally think that the only death of the breed would be if great reputable breeders turn their backs to the breed due to cosmetic reasons. That would be a great shame.

 

[Quee]

Wow - I wasn't aware this was a powder-keg issue, but I'm a born debater so I'm enjoing all of the spirited discussion! I understand both positions on this - although I have to say - having had a (mixed) Doberman with a super-long tail, from 1st-hand experience it's not really a nuisance or a problem. I had more problems with my dearly departed guy hoovering any and everything off the coffee table and opening the fridge to help himself than I did with his tail sweeping tables clean. He seemed to be pretty mindful of his tail and his hefty presence in general.

At any rate - I certainly believe in freedom of choice and am skeptical of government regulation of this choice (I hate the idea of having to pay the government to make that kind of choice for me). I also think it is a short but painful process that puppies go through when docked and cropped, but it makes sense for US competing Dobes although I understand that it is no longer a consideration for most US competitions. I love the way my Dobie looks with her ears uncropped, and while I'm used to her not having a tail, to me I feel like we're missing a form of communication that most dogs have. Again, I think people should be left to decide for their own dependents (dogs or children as when deciding about circumcision). I'm sure I'd feel differently if I were seriously competing my dog or breeding dogs, but since her role is primarily as a companion dog who occasionally has some fun at agility events, I'm glad her ears are not cropped and I miss her tail too. That's just my preference.

I do think there are a lot more Dobermans not being cropped in the US - the majority of the Dobermans I've seen coming through the IL Doberman Rescue are uncropped, and I've seen a few this year uncropped and undocked, which is a rarity here. Looking on their web site today (www.ildoberescue.com), something like 34% are cropped and 66% are uncropped, which seems to indicate a trend.

P.S. Thank you to those who pointed out that the Dobes with tails most likely are not in the US - I didn't catch that!

 

[Quee]

One more note - all of us love and cherish our Dobermans here, but there are three distinct - and not necessarily conflicting - purposes we have for owning Dobermans. There are those who have Dobermans to compete and represent the breed standard as defined by the AKC or other breed certifying authorities around the globe. There are also those who have Dobermans for a working purpose - i.e. to seriously guard and work for their humans much in the way that I'd imagine Louis Dobermann bred them for. Then there are those who have Dobermans because they want them for companionship exclusively.

To me these are all completely valid and legitimate reasons for having a Doberman. Depending on what category we fall into as owners, we may look at our Doberman's aesthetics differently, which to me is also completely valid and legitimate. I totally understand why someone who is competing or working a Doberman would want them cropped and docked. But because I have my Doberman for companionship and not for those other reasons, I don't think my preference of an uncropped and undocked Doberman ruins the breed standard. Dobermans are always going to be born with dropped ears and full tails (at least I hope no one ever mucks with their DNA to change that!) so whether they're docked and cropped or not after they are born, they're still Dobermans per the breed standard. I'm glad that some breeders give future owners a choice on whether to crop and in some cases to dock, just as others say they want the freedom to dock and crop their own dogs. I hope that in the US competitions allow the choice for all owners instead of going from requiring cropping and docking to the other extreme of banning it.

At any rate we all love our Dobies, and hopefully we can respect each other's choices as far as how we choose to present them.

 

[Max Hawk]

Quee I agree with the others that you have probably seen pictures of the dogs bred abroad as well as some of the Canadian/US dogs where the owners choose to keep the ears natural. I don't know if it is becoming a trend to keep them natural, but it may be more accepted than earlier due to many of the European countries banning it. Regardless of body parts they are all amazing dogs. We would love to see some pictures of your past and present dogs.

This discussion is getting a bit tedious. We are never going to agree on this and I don't think there is any reason to be aggressive about it. The non cropped and docked Dobies are no less of a Dobie and no less worth as a working or show dog than the ones that have had the surgery, so please don't make it sound like it's the death of the breed. Suzan if you had ever had an intact dog that you loved and that showed you that they are still the same dog regardless of the size/length of the ears and tail you may change your mind. I personally think that the only death of the breed would be if great reputable breeders turn their backs to the breed due to cosmetic reasons. That would be a great shame.

I so agree with Katja either way they are just as much doberman cropped or not ;whatever I say!! I like mine the way they are! I think Judith and Katja's dogs are beyond compare beautiful! I can kinda understand where your coming from Suzan but I wish you would relax about it they are a wonderful breed and I don't like laws against the cropping but I would still have dobermans no matter what! Anywho gotta say my vet made me think about the fact that when we dock their tails she said do you realize we are cutting off part of their spine!! Ewww that just doesn't sound good now does it! I have to admit I had never thought about it in that light! So anywho live and let live all.. It's getting darned expensive to crop to by the way many people can't afford it anymore!!

 

[Dobs4ever]

The problem is- it is not the standard and if it continues we will loose the rignt to crop and dock which is what the AR groups are praying for. Because with every little victory they win they are closer to achieving their big goal which is ban the dogs period. Once cropping and docking is banned you will never get it back. A Doberman that does not look like a doberman is not a prime example of this breed. A Doberman should look like the dog the standard describes.

I go to shows now and honestly I want to cry- it started heavily in the Danes and Boxers = They just laid down and rolled over and threw in the towel - Beautiful magnificent dogs with a imposing presence just like the doberman. Now the are dummied down til they just look like goofs. It is not an imposing look. "The look" is part of breed type. Then once you loose that how do you argue that breeding "supersized" is not correct or roached back are OK or ??????. It will be said - well we changed one part so really we can all just do what we want.

The Doberman was meant to be an imposing figure of a dog and those ears whether you want to admit it or not is a big part of the presence. It clearly defines the essence of the breed. When Europe banned cropping and docking in some parts (there are still parts that are not banned) and if you look at the beautiful dog shows Iceman post on here you see Cropped and Docked.

It is too silly to say that banning cropping and docking changed the focus to health testing. That is a pretty far reach. While it may have appeared to some to have happened at the same time they were not related. Were you active in breed clubs and things you would they have been concerned about health always hence OFA. I know that as science progresses and with the discovery of DNA in the early 90's it ramped up the rush to discover some of the issues in our dogs. DNA is what really changed the scene NOT cropping and docking.

I do not want the appearance of this breed dummied down. Anytime you speak to someone who wants uncropped - first they are not even aware for the most part what a purebred standard is and they want a softer look. The word softer is never found anywhere in our standard and goes against everything that the description of the doberman represents.

It amazes me that our icons in the breed here even way back were visionary enough to see this coming and to try to secure our standard as well as our rights. I would have no problem with "choice" if we did not have a standard which defines and describes the ideal dog and it did not mean that I am going to loose my right to follow the standard. A few who think they can hide the fact it is a doberman says it all. It is hard to distinguiish the breed with a tail and ears.

Believe you me it does matter - remember when Judith published the story of the breeders who were shipping dogs with puppies to other places to have them whelped so they could be cropped and docked??? Breeders know how important every single part of the standard is. Once an outside force obtains the power to change a standard ALL purebred dogs are on the slope to being destroyed.

Read the press - you would think that all problems are the terrible breeders who breed purebreds. We have caused all the health issues all the problems. Do you honestly believe it is not all tied together???? The people who say it does not matter are not for cropping and docking so it is easy for them to say forget it we are tired of the same ole same ole. Well guess what - if some don't stand and fight in 10 years there will be no dobermans or at least not enough to keep the gene pool going. It will be too late once it happens then you will be crying with the rest of us. Gosh it did not seem to be that big a deal but when the AVMA thinks they can dictate to breed clubs what they can and can't do with their standard then you will see the downfall of all purebred dogs and it was just easy for them to start with c/d.

Go create your own breed and leave the Doberman as it was described to be - Heck create your own "designer" breed GAG but leave our Dobermans as the standard calls for a c/d breed.

Yes it is a heated argument and will remain so when poeple who do not understand what a breed standard does try to change it. We are fighting hard not to keep our standard closed. AKC and the AVMA would love to see us open it up for their scruinity. What the heck do vets know about breed standards - NOTHING. Do yo want vets who have showed a policy that is harmful to all dogs down your throat just to make money to now tell you what dog you can have or how it should look???? Once you start changing a standard ALL purebred dogs are on the way out.

 

[Doberman Gang]

Leia has her tail docked but natural ears. We considered cropping, but finally decided not to. She loves her ears played with and rubbed too!

They love there ears rubbed when they are cropped also. I know mine do.

 

[MyBuddy]

My thoughts still are on the side of Standard. It's all I've ever known and Standard is what I love about each breed! The look that sets each breed apart, that makes it recognizable, is what I've known and accepted since I was a little girl. I don't even know when and where this notion of C/D being 'barbaric' came from. It snuck up on me for sure. All of my Dobermans have been from breeders who C/D before I even came into the picture. I believe that's how it should be and I also believe this to be true:

Sorry this should say - Breeders and pet owners had better wake up. REQUIRE your breeder to crop the ears - if they don't then I guarantee you it is about the money, it is NOT about the pride in what your produce and it is NOT about the love of the breed AND its standard.

The BYB who do not crop becaue they are too cheap and leave it up to their pet owners have caused a lot of the problem. When people who are not experienced and used to ear cropping have to struggle with it then they never want to go through it again and I don't blame them.

learn about purebred dogs. They were bred with a specific purpose and look. From that a standard was developed to make usre everyone tried to follow it.

I have had people tell me that it is not recognized as a Doberman so people are not immediately afraid of it. Well that is lying to folks. Trying to hide what our dogs are is misleading and is going to cause someone to get hurt.

And for sure I believe this:

When you see any purebred dog is is suppose to be immediately recognizable. If we destroy the standard and reg drop like they have every where else then we will not have a large enough gene pool to keep the breed going.

That's why we have a standard to protect the breed as intended. It is not just a matter of you like the look better - it is not the standard. If you want a purebreed then it means you like that particular dog for specific reasons and those reasons are what made the dog all that it is.

So true.

I know this issue strikes the very heart of us all and it will always be split down the middle with folks siding on one or the other, defending to the death our right to Crop or not. But for me, no matter how much I love all Dobermans, cropped or not, the bottom line is I do not want to change the breed standards on ANY of our breeds. Not just Dobies. For me it's not about not having a tail to swipe a table clean, or ears that can hear better.........for me it's all about STANDARD. When I look at a Dog Breed book I can pick out each breed because it's recognizable! Perhaps I'm old school and the 'new generation' will slowly loose that recognition with the crop and dock taken away. Everything is getting so politically correct. If we don't fight this, it will go too.

And I'll end my rant with a NON politically correct, "MERRY CHRISTMAS!"