Are More US Doberowners Leaving Their Dobes Uncropped and Undocked?

[Dobs4ever]

First - I am not knocking anyones dog - Cropped or not - I do understand that many have lost the right to crop so it would be pointless for them to argue for cropping when they can't do it. They have long ago become accustomed to the look - I am solidly against loosing the standard or people who think they want the dummied down look so poeple don't regonize it as a Doberman and/or people who want to do their own thing.

That is not what purebred dogs are about. They are about following a standard.

What do you think would happen if we throw the standards out for purebred dogs??? Do they all become "Designer Dogs"??? How do you recognize one dog breed from the other???

DV in your post you said your girl was 27 inches and you were not going to show her now she is 1/2 inch over the standard that is what I was referring too. a 1/2 inch is in no way out of bounds and I don't have a problem with it. But I don't let other people decide for me what I will or won't do. . Canada did change its standard in the hopes of not loosing cropping - again they felt it better to try to give an inch in hopes of saving the whole - it won't work as history proves. Let's see - that's how the rest lost it -

When you talk about implementing rules about breeding then what if the first dogs eliminated are yours???? How would you feel if the dog warden came in and said you can't show or breed that dog because it is not within the rules??? Remember this is the govt speaking - who has never bred any dog and most liekly never attended a dog show in their life - do you really want them deciding for you???

Good breeders will breed for the best that they can produce - that would automatically eliminate them breeding oversized, albinos, more than 3 missing teeth, stove pipe neck, tubular body shape, splayed feet you name it. Good breeders work to get it right. While it is true there is not perfect dog and all have faults does that mean we should just throw otu the standard???

It is the standard of our dogs that I am so strongly for. IT is the right to crop and dock. I dont' like tails at all that is my personal feeling so guess what I picked a breed that is docked. Like Herr Dobermann the tail just gets in the way, is easily damaged, knocks everything over and stings when it is switching around. So I am quite happy with the standard as origianlly written. That is what I want to keep. What everyone else does not seem to understand is that it will be the demise of the breed. DPCA is fighting hard right now to keep the standard from being opened because once it is opened the breed is lost. Then others will be making the decisions not people who know the Doberman like the back of their hand.

Look at what happened to Australia the first year the ban was in place reg dropped by 50%??? That is a hugh drop. We can't afford that kind of drop in reg and the breed sustain itself.

If you are trying to tell me appearance does not matter I beg to differ - Look at the money people spend on image, plastic surgery, cosemetics, hair dressing and color - appearance matters. Why are there more uncropped dogs in rescue -

And I still want to know where you see so many ugly cropped dogs. If Canada has embraced floopy earred dogs then it is their loss. I see far more uncropped very very poorly bred dobermans - just visit any of the rescues - it is obvious that they did not come from top breeders. who were following a standard.

I wanted to emphasize that genetic health problems in Dobermans are much higher risk for the breed destruction than cropping and docking ban.
Unfortunately I see many poor bred Dobermans with cropped ears. Many of them goes through 2 major surgeries before they are 1 year old and die at 3-5. That's very painful to watch.

If you could please explain the statment about the 2 major surgeries - are you referring to copping and docking and spay/neuter or what was that in reference to??? Just so you know cropping and dockingis not a major surgery - It is not invasive and puppies are cropped at 3 to 5 days of age plus dews removed - all non invasive.

 

[DaisyDobe]

16 months of owning a docked but natural ear girl. Never has anyone mistaken her for any other breed. Matter of fact, just this weekend we were at the dog park. When we first arrived a gentleman said "That's the first Doberman I've seen in years." About 40 minutes later another woman showed up and said "Have been coming here for two years and have never seen a Doberman. She's beautiful."

This breed is in trouble regardless of cropping & docking. Registration is down, overall ownership is down, "reputable" breeders are down. I believe there is a very small demand from reputable breeders within the US for "natural" Dobermans. The few "reputable" breeders who fulfill the wish of natural ears are scorned within the Doberman Community of the old and long time breeders. I’m glad my reputable breeder allowed me the CHOICE to crop or not.

With that said, I can see how my natural ear girl may affect the perspective to the general public & the DPCA WRITTEN STANDARD of which the general public has NO knowledge of.

i.e. I have a docked / natural ear Doberman. I have a 3 younger children who are being raised with a non-conforming DPCA Written Standard Doberman. They LOVE this dog. They bring their young friends over, the friends play with her. Their friends parents come over and are introduced to this dog of medium size, square body, compact, muscular, elegant, proud, noble, amazing temperament and quite obedient to her owners.

20 years from now, when these children are in their late 20's early 30's and are thinking about getting a family dog, they may think of the amazing Doberman they once knew…. The Doberman with the docked tail and natural ears.

I only hope they still have a CHOICE.

 

[tony & amanda]

This is always going to be a heated debate and that's ok. That's what America is about. We can make choices and have freedoms. I think what Susan is saying is completely true to those who understand the standard of what a doberman is. Those who do not, it's perfectly ok for you to choose not to crop and dock. Why is it ok? I believe it is ok to have a difference in opinion, and with this i feel it is important that we have a choice. Ipersonally believe and stand by the doberman standard and will not waver from it. My girls are seen to the left as natural (i love this picture because they are together and look so cute) however they have beautifully cropped ears. My husband and I will look at our girls before we tape them up and say, WOW they are gorgeous. We are proud of our dobes cropped ears. I have loved this breed since i was a little girl, and the look was mystifying and magical for me. Of course, all those with uncropped ears have beautiful dogs as well, they just are not up to the doberman standard as written and known as far as appearance is concerned.

I think here in the US, we should have the right to crop and dock, and that standard should stick for shows and working dogs, period.This standard should not change. As for pet owner's (since this is America) you should have the choice to keep them natural should you choose. I guess that would fall into the breeders hands.

As far as European countries, I think you guys should also have the choice. I do not think anyone should be able to tell you what you can and can't do with your pet. It's a choice. If you choose not too, ok, but if you want to stay true to the standard, you should be able to.

Lastly, my girls did have some pain when they had their ears done. (I would be lying if i said there was none)However, they did receive pain meds and the pain was equivelant to what a baby goes through with circumcision. They were not bothered by it, but when they would hit it, it would hurt. In other words a cut on your hand....it hurts when you are putting weight on it, but otherwise it's not an issue. It was like that. They were not traumatized in any way and were and still are normal happy pups.

 

[Dobs4ever]

It is not invasive and puppies are cropped at 3 to 5 days of age plus dews removed - all non invasive.

I need to correcft this error in typing - it should say docked at 3 to 4 days of age - puppies are cropped at 7 to 12 weeks.

Please forgive my error when typing.

 

[Hello123]

But I don't let other people decide for me what I will or won't do. . Canada did change its standard in the hopes of not loosing cropping - again they felt it better to try to give an inch in hopes of saving the whole - it won't work as history proves. Let's see - that's how the rest lost it -Dobs4ever

Something many people forget to acknowledge about the CKC ,is that their registrations are very low for all breeds ,when compared to other studbooks.The CKC has often refused to participate in any standard vs. standard debate between studbooks because it would so limit the registered gene pools, in Canada, as to be detrimental to all the breeds they register.

The CKC standards tend to be very generous towards 'obtaining quality' for foundation in CKC breeding.

In no way am I saying that all CKC registered animals ARE quality.Only that our studbook must reach out to other CKC sanctioned studbooks, in order to maintain any quality whatsoever.Our registrations are that low numbered for titled breed stock ,when compared to other studbooks.

This is only my own personal opinion and observation.I would be very interested in what a national club mentor might contribute to the conversation ,concerning the CKC standard.

I remember when some very reputable breeders started selling uncopped pups .My regional club members were mortified.

 

[swiftK9s]

These are just my opinions, but I honestly don't know how you can compare a natural earred doberman (cropped is a cosmetic change thru surgery) with a swan neck, cow hocked, toothless dog, (which are all genetic faults).
I find offence with the term "dummied down".
And I feel if our breed is in danger, it is not because they have ears or not, but has much more to do with an unstable temperment and bad reputation, thanks to BYBs from years ago and breeders willing to sell a puppy to anyone who has the money.
After being a member here for 2 yrs, I should know better than to read any c/d threads, but I always get pulled in, only to be so disappointed in the turn these discussions take.
More often than not, the people who have natural earred Dobermans are pro choice, but the few who are adament on cropping feel that if you dont crop, you should get a different breed, because "thats the standard." From DCPA, "ears normally cropped and carried erect". Definiton of "normally" is: in most situations or cases. You can show natural earred Dobermans in AKC.
I know we will never see eye to eye or even agree to disagree on this topic. I just wish people could remain civil and state their opinion without belittling someone elses choice.

 

[DreamValley]

When you talk about implementing rules about breeding then what if the first dogs eliminated are yours???? How would you feel if the dog warden came in and said you can't show or breed that dog because it is not within the rules??? Remember this is the govt speaking - who has never bred any dog and most liekly never attended a dog show in their life - do you really want them deciding for you???

Good breeders will breed for the best that they can produce - that would automatically eliminate them breeding oversized, albinos, more than 3 missing teeth, stove pipe neck, tubular body shape, splayed feet you name it. Good breeders work to get it right. While it is true there is not perfect dog and all have faults does that mean we should just throw otu the standard???

No breeding is allowed in many European countries without successful ZTP. It includes temperament, conformation, courage and protection tests to identify those Dobermans suitable for breeding. There are 4 possible classifications: 1A , 1B , Held-back (Held-over), Unsuitable for Breeding.

Unfortunately everybody can breed in NA. BYBs grow like a weed. That's a huge problem.
Dobermans with health problems burn owners pockets and break their hearts.

Look? We like what we used to... beauty in eyes of beholder.

 

[Dobs4ever]

From DCPA, "ears normally cropped and carried erect". Definiton of "normally" is: in most situations or cases. You can show natural earred Dobermans in AKC.

Swift - don't get upset it is a heated discussion as always. Being very active in DPCA I know a lot more about the problems facing us as top breeders and the standard is a biggy. This is were many misunderstand the standard as written and the word "normally" - it could mean what you are saying "normally" cropped but the following two words and carried erect means they are cropped. If not cropped they could never be carried erect. So it means cropped in a normal manner or fashion and carried erect.

I think of it like kids going to school - who does better who feels better about themselves??? The kid in sloppy clothes or the one all dressed up in their best??? Does the poorly dressed kidd feel inferior?? Does he wish he hasd nicer clothes??? We want to present the doberman at it very best look and the standard says that is cropped and docked. So as a doberman owner in complete support of the standard I want to present the dog at its best - and most impressive. I hope that made it a little clearer - it was not meant as a slam it was simply a way to define what it does to the appearance of this dog that is suppose to be impressive, powerful, noble, alert etc.

While uncropped is not a genetic fault it is a deviation from the standard and to be penalized the exact same as the above. Ex. A dog with one missing tooth is downgraded less than a dog with two missing. So a deviation is a deviation.

Other clubs have lost so much when they opened their standard for review and AKC stepped in much like mentioned above by the CKC - for the sake of money they want to make the reg # hold. I am apssionalte because I have been involved with BSL legislations for over 5 years and it is frightening to read the seemingly little things that they take and make into a new onslaught to destroy our dogs.

I agree we should have choice - but choice has led us down a very slippery slope. And now because we are seeing so many left uncropped (they got what they wanted) so now they are after the c/d period. It is toally an AR agenda and we can't let them win. They have much bigger targets in mind.

If you compare two dogs standing erect and one cropped and one not the more imposing and impressive figure will be the cropped - It is part of the standard because it helps define even more eloquently some of the terms used to describe the doberman - noble, alert, etc - it just adds that little pazzaz that makes them even more impressive. I know Herr Dobermann was not concerned with the pazzaz - he had other reasons for wanting it cropped and docked but he set the standard it is his breed and the governement should butt out.

No breeding is allowed in many European countries without successful ZTP. It includes temperament, conformation, courage and protection tests to identify those Dobermans suitable for breeding.

While this appears true on the other hand you hear all the ways people have to get around it. Crooked judges and trails - -The point is no system is perfect but more controls only lead to more cheating. Good breeder are good breeders regardless of rules and regs. Bad breeders dont' change their spots either. So while we would like to live in LALA land and believe that another system is better usually when you actually experience it you find out you were much better off the way it was. But once it is change you can never go back. And that is the point - we do not want to loose the right to c/d here. That is what everyone is missing and that is why it is important.

The very BYB you talk against are the ones who really started the uncropped and undocked flood because they were too cheap to do it themselves. So a lot of their puppies remained uncropped and more of them end up in rescue. People buy purebred dogs as much for the looks as anything else. That is why there are so many different breeds - to each his own. Most are so uneducated they are not even aware of a standard or its purpose.

 

[swiftK9s]

Swift - don't get upset it is a heated discussion as always. Being very active in DPCA I know a lot more about the problems facing us as top breeders and the standard is a biggy. This is were many misunderstand the standard as written and the word "normally" - it could mean what you are saying "normally" cropped but the following two words and carried erect means they are cropped. If not cropped they could never be carried erect. So it means cropped in a normal manner or fashion and carried erect.

I think of it like kids going to school - who does better who feels better about themselves??? The kid in sloppy clothes or the one all dressed up in their best??? Does the poorly dressed kidd feel inferior?? Does he wish he hasd nicer clothes??? We want to present the doberman at it very best look and the standard says that is cropped and docked. So as a doberman owner in complete support of the standard I want to present the dog at its best - and most impressive. I hope that made it a little clearer - it was not meant as a slam it was simply a way to define what it does to the appearance of this dog that is suppose to be impressive, powerful, noble, alert etc.

I haven't asked Cooper if he felt bad because he has long ears, and might look sloppy to some. I doubt he even know he looks different. He doesn't spend much time in front of the mirror, so I doubt he feels bad about himself. I feel, if someone doesn't know he is a Doberman by looking at him with his ears on, then someone needs to educate themselves on dog breeds.
I appreciate your explanation of "normally cropped and carried erect". I wish it had been written differently, that left no room for misinterpretation. I like my rules to be black and white. I think when you have wiggle room, thats when problems start. No mumbo jumbo.. short and sweet... cropped and carried erect.
D4E, I have a lot of respect for you and your years of experience with the Doberman breed. I understand and appreciate your passion, concerns and worries, especially as far as BSL goes. I know you live and breathe Dobermans and are very dedicated to their future. As disturbed as I get on these discussions, I do learn something from time to time.... thank you for that.

 

[Ingrid H]

If what Herr Dobermann wanted for utilitarian purposes is so important to the breed standard, why has the crop evolved over the years into the long skinny crop? When I think of what Herr Dobermann's dogs must have looked like, I think of a military crop almost like a pit bull crop. The show ring seems to demand an exaggerated caricature of the original intent.

 

[DreamValley]

If you compare two dogs standing erect and one cropped and one not the more imposing and impressive figure will be the cropped

That's your personal opinion Susan ... beauty in the eye of the beholder.

You are very passionate about cropped and docked look and I respect it. Please respect my passion about natural Dobes.

I absolutely love the natural look of my dogs and I am honest.

Asha in her new jammies.

... and my sweet boy Gino

 

[Lizzard]

BINGO, Swift:

I just wish people could remain civil and state their opinion without belittling someone elses choice.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Thank OB it is often a lonely field - I honestly wish it were just about "choice" but they have used that against us. The AVMA and AR groups stand poise on this one issue as their battle to win and if they succeed then breed clubs will fall, standards will fall and the world of purebred dogs will soon be a thing of the past.

The point is not about what one person does or does not do with their dog - the points are - you want good breeders - then good breeders should follow the standard. You want breeders to be responsibile for upholding the breed then they must follow the guidelines as laid out by the breed standard. If breeders do not follow their own standard what does that say about their care of the breed???

If we loose c/d then that opens our standard automatically and AKC stands poised to jump in as they have in other breeds who made that mistake.

If you want breeder to be held to certain standards then to me it is double talk to say here's the standard but we want you to change it for me.

Yes crops have gotten more elegant but so has our dobes. Herr Dobermann was not interested in conformation - sas hows were not around back then like they are today. He had one concern - create a dog to work with him personally as protection as he made his rounds collecting money from tenants and taxes. He was not concerned with the ears and head matching. So his crops would really look horrible on our dogs today.

I would far prefer to see an uncropped dobe as one with a horrible ear crop.

Please understand the fight is not about anyone's uncropped dog. Itis about LOOSING the standard and then were do we go. Believe you me it will become anything goes and if you don't like what you see now in poorly bred dogs you sure won't like hwat follows if we loose our right. The uncropped people dont' have to worry because theirs are uncropped anyway but it does impact the standard for those who want to see it stand as written and especially because of all the other things to quickly follow.

WE ARE THE LAST strong hold. If we fall you can bend over and kiss the purebred world as we know it good bye.
That is what some are not seeing. They just want to do things their way and have what they like. Do I like cropped absolutely but I like it because is is how I have always seen good Dobermans presented and it is the standard.

It is not about who likes what look - it is about the standard and without a standard we have no purebred dogs.
That is what everyone is avoiding. Let's bury our heads in the sand and 20 years from now don't expect me to come to a pity party to sit around and lament the lose of the purebred dogs, good breeding and yes if there is no standard then why would a person who wants to meet standards want to continue breeding - If quality goes then who would honestly want to be a part of it. That is what a standard does - it sets the bar for all to stive for.

 

[MyBuddy]

Remember the list of C/D dogs that someone posted a long time ago? Was anyone else as surprised as me with that? There were many on that list that I had no idea was C/D. I've prided myself for years on being able to recognize and name dog breeds like my son can do with cars! lol I could never do that with dang cars, but we could drive along and bing, bing, bing, he can name them in a heartbeat. I usually can do that with dogs too, because of the Standard that I've been brought up with!

So I'd like to ask what do you think will become of ALL our dogs if C/D is no longer on option? Forget Dobermans for the moment. Picture ALL dogs uncropped and undocked. All of them. What are you seeing? I see a lot of dogs that I may not recognize! I see a melting pot of all dogs looking the same. Some of course would be the same, but for sure, it would change everything.

And look at 'designer dogs'. They came out of people doing the same thing we are talking about here. "I want a Doberman, but I want a 'softer' look and I don't want to cut that tail.'' So we change it. Then it's, "I want a Labrador but, gee, I don't want that hair." "I want a Dachshund but I want longer legs." Or I want a poodle, but I want it pink! LOL Ok, that was added to keep things light ! But in all seriousness, think about that. What would it be like??

 

[swiftK9s]

MB, I feel like when you are talking about changing the hair, or the legs, or the color of a dog... those are all genetic changes. Cropping is about taking 1/3 of an ear off thru a surgical procedure. I am not against cropping at all. If I get another Doberman puppy, I would like to have him cropped, so I will fight for my choice to do just that. Call me naive, but I am just having a hard time convincing myself that having a natural eared doberman is going to put the breed on the path towards extinction.

 

[DreamValley]

Oh yes... I have to remind you MD that Dobermans are born with floppy ears You are more a designer to adjust their look.
As I mentioned before Doberman standard in Canada included natural ears. I can not agree on Standard with you either.

If I picture all dogs with cropped ears I see a melting pot of dogs looking the same....LOL Is that true?
They all are different no matter they are natural or cropped. You have to shift your focus from ears to deep impressive Doberman eyes and you will notice it.

 

[Dobs4ever]

I will try to say it one more time. It is not about cropping and docking ONLY. I am not against some leaving their dogs uncropped and docked. I am 100% solidly for following the standard and NOT LOOSING the right to crop and dock.

If any of you can guarantee me that by you leaving your dogs uncropped we will NOT LOOSE our right to crop I honestly could care less. But the hallowed standard BEFORE it was changed to suit the AR groups calls for cropped and docked. If you are not aware of the AR agenda then before you push so hard for your uncropped dogs you need to ask yourself if you are OK with everyone else loosing their rights and once this issue falls are you OK with then no standard will be hallowed and AKC, AVMA, HSUS, PETA are standing around like vultures ready to devour the poor, sickly, dropping dead like flies, bad bad breeders who created the degererate purebred dog.

I am not against some leaving their dogs uncropped - I am 100% against loosing the standard and the dogs along with the right to crop and dock because I choose to follow the standard. I embrace the standard as it is what made our dogs all that they are. Once that standard is chopped away there are no more purebred dogs.

 

[MyBuddy]

MB, I feel like when you are talking about changing the hair, or the legs, or the color of a dog... those are all genetic changes.

Oh yes... I have to remind you MD that Dobermans are born with floppy ears You are more a designer to adjust their look.

You both make a solid point here.

I embrace the standard as it is what made our dogs all that they are. Once that standard is chopped away there are no more purebred dogs.

I guess this is what I mean to say the most. ^^^

But I still say if we took that complete list of dogs that are C/D and did away with it, most of them would look so different from the purebreds that I know now. And that saddens me.

 

[swiftK9s]

Suzan (D4E), how can we (I) support the standard and still leave my dogs ears natural? Is there any way without being seen as a hypocrite? Do we only support breeders who crop and dock their puppies? What is the answer, so that I can have what I want (a choice) and the standard remain as it is? You say the standard was changed to suit the AR groups... what was it before, and who changed it?

 

[Dobs4ever]

If I get another Doberman puppy, I would like to have him cropped, so I will fight for my choice to do just that.

Swift - that is what you guys are missing - YOU ALREADY HAVE THE RIGHT - We on the other hand are fighting to keep it. You already have the choice of leaving your dog uncropped. If that side wins we LOOSE the right to crop and dock and I am NOT at all OK with that.

It is tied to the standard - it will cost us the purebred dog world and as the AR groups are fighting so hard to blame breeders for every single thing that goes wrong there will be no breeders if we have no standard that we can stand by - NOT one that changes at every turn of the wind then ther is no purebred dogs.

Look at what AKC has already done - now you can show mutts in AKC venues - not conformation but they are doing that becasue REGISTRATIONS are down across the board. Purebred dogs have a closed gene pool anyway and can't sustan much more. Need I repeat Doberman -JUST DOBERMAN registrations are down from 80,000 to 10,000 - How much further down do you think we can go and maintain a health gene pool???

It is about us winningg NOT you loosing - you already have won you can choose If we understand nothing else we must understand that and defend the standard with all our might. The AR groups are well funded we are not. I do not want to just hand them their victory.