iceman
Active Member
My personal opinion is that initially imported foundation sires were not of the highest quality..
If I was to comment on the posted photos of these dogs, most correct one seems to be Alpha Le Dobry followed by Demetriu..
Dictator and Emperor had an undesirable straight front angulation, weak rear and both dogs lacking substance..
overall..not good enough breeding material to start the breed on a different continent..
F
FredC
I had just assumed those were the stellar dogs of their time? (Early 1940's) I have no doubt there were better examples of the breed even back then but it is of my opinion that considering the decade i think (Most) those dogs were pretty good examples of the breed for the time. But then again i admit ive never really dove to deep into anything Doberman Pinscher related. Im 100% in to the Euro standard and find it hard to stay focused when it comes to studying American lines.
Dobs4ever
Hot Topics Subscriber
At the time of the war they were shipping dogs out trying to save the breed from extinction over there as that is were the largest populations was. Today it is far more true that they do not ship the best but back then their objective was to just save the breed in case Germany fell.
Those dogs took the world by storm as they were shown as the first prominent Dobermans in America. 3 of the 7 sires are reported to have died of DCM so it came from there and evidently was a problem even back then. Before that time they were not as visible as there were so few of them.
The pictures simply show a progression of how both sides took similar dogs and they changes they made. I could know the Euros who have gone overboard on size but that was not the purpose of the pictures. i thought it was interesting to look back as so few today know anything at all about where these dogs came from and how they got here or what they look like.
Arrow Harrosberg - notice straight in the front and rear
Byron v Forell straight in the front and rear
Guy Hilo straight in the front and rear
From these line we created this Fedor
Back in the 40's the dogs were barely at the beginning and still very close to the original dogs - they did not look like the dogs of today anywhere.
Those dogs took the world by storm as they were shown as the first prominent Dobermans in America. 3 of the 7 sires are reported to have died of DCM so it came from there and evidently was a problem even back then. Before that time they were not as visible as there were so few of them.
The pictures simply show a progression of how both sides took similar dogs and they changes they made. I could know the Euros who have gone overboard on size but that was not the purpose of the pictures. i thought it was interesting to look back as so few today know anything at all about where these dogs came from and how they got here or what they look like.
Arrow Harrosberg - notice straight in the front and rear
Byron v Forell straight in the front and rear
Guy Hilo straight in the front and rear
From these line we created this Fedor
Back in the 40's the dogs were barely at the beginning and still very close to the original dogs - they did not look like the dogs of today anywhere.
iceman
Active Member
I agree with your on this but only up to a point.. yes, the majority of early dogs did not look like todays dobermann, BUT at the same time this doesn't mean the breed was manipulated and genetically recreated..
Looking at the old photos, we see most the early dogs were incorrect by todays breed standards..
Once the modern breed standards were defined, the dogs appearance started taking shape..
Todays dobermann is the product of selective breeding..in the direction defined by the standards..
Back in the days they were dogs that possessed the qualities of todays dogs..All they had to do was breed selectively from the dogs that had these good qualities..
a good example is the photo below..(OK maybe its not 70 years old but probably from 40-50 years ago)
Notice the correct angulation front & rear? the head? topline?
I believe this was a puppy from Van Neerlands Stam kennel
Dobs4ever
Hot Topics Subscriber
Ice I don't think anyone ever mentions manipulated and genetically recreated. But they were manipulated as that is how purebred dogs evolve. Breeders took things they liked and work on setting it in the gene and hence manipulate it to reproduce more.
It is one thing that makes dogs so different from other species - the ablity to manipulate genes and change the look. That is exactly what happened and that is why one side went one way and the other side went a little different direction based on what they thought was important or an improvement.
If you look closely the dog you posted is straight in front with no forechest but it does have better angulation in the rear. Shoulders are set forward more like the pictures of Dictator.
DocReverto
Formerly CRD
Trotyl is a nice dog but I hate what people are doing with him right now.
Cryptonite is my favorite amoung the breed.
No dog compares, nor has produced as much or taken as many best in shows.
Lex Luthor was another great dog, prominent in the SA side, and definitely changed the American side as we know it.
Cryptonite is my favorite amoung the breed.
No dog compares, nor has produced as much or taken as many best in shows.
Lex Luthor was another great dog, prominent in the SA side, and definitely changed the American side as we know it.
agift4me
Hot Topics Subscriber
haha this is fun! With further research, my baby girls' grand sires and great grandsires consist of; Dante Delle Querce Nere, Pathos Delle Querce Nere, Fedor Del Nasi, Baron Nike Renewal and Embargo Betelges. Ouch, I believe I see some line breeding.... I think I'm going to do more digging 
DocReverto
Formerly CRD
haha this is fun! With further research, my baby girls' grand sires and great grandsires consist of; Dante Delle Querce Nere, Pathos Delle Querce Nere, Fedor Del Nasi, Baron Nike Renewal and Embargo Betelges. Ouch, I believe I see some line breeding.... I think I'm going to do more digging
Line breeding isn't your enemy.
You would be hard pressed to find lines that aren't line bred in some way.
agift4me
Hot Topics Subscriber
Just as long as it stops there, it's the same with horses. "Line" breeding is okay as long as it does not lead to "In" breeding. I want to do more research and go back further. As I look at my girl, I can see that she is not a prospect for a confirmation clinic, but oddly enough; she's athletic as hell and seems to be very sound.
iceman
Active Member
i don't think the front angulation of the puppy is that bad (at least not as bad as Dictator)....photo is misleading because front legs are not in line.
As for lack of chest,could be due to the dog being very young....anyway..my point in posting that photo was that there were dogs with
good qualities back then..
Tasha & Boris' Mom
Hot Topics Subscriber
I thought ya'll might enjoy this pic. This is our first Tasha from 1974. I was a teenager and not to interested in registration and all that but mama told me she has her AKC papers in a file in the shop so when I go home next week I am going to find them. She was amazing, she could clear a 10 ft cattle fence with ease. I think she is about 5-6 months here maybe a little older but not much![[doberman-chat.com]Tashone.webp](https://doberman-chat.com/data/attachments/22/22973-c699d8c35d33c7cb17b9aded7563dbde.jpg?hash=xz8rrDjCnk "[doberman-chat.com]Tashone.webp")
Dobs4ever
Hot Topics Subscriber
Ice while the dog is not standing exactly correct and the picture angle is off slightly but you can still see that he does not have great lay back and even if you move his legs you can still see he does not have forechest. BUT he is a good example of taking a dog that turned up with better rear anglulation and using him to improve on the things that they liked Just as happened here. There are great dog on both sides of the world and we have shown some examples to show how ALL dobermans have evolved and changed as breeders breed in things they found and liked. But contrary to what many seem to promote they are all dobermans.
We started with what we had - good examples of the breed and they went on to have very successful show careers and literally set the world on fire over here. All the beginning pictures that we have of the Doberman showed poor angulation both front and rear and lack of forechest. I have a signed copy of Philipp Gruenig,s book THE DOBERMAN PINSCHER. They didn't breed at that time for beauty they bred a dog that would stop any man. That was their focus and had the dogs remained as those original dogs both in looks and temperament I do not believe the Doberman would have survived as a breed.
I also think back in those days people were of a mind set to help establish a breed so did send good stock as it reflected back on their entire program. Today it is far more cutthroat sadly.
Go to DPCA.org and read the story of Ilena and the 7 sires - the foundation of todays American Doberman. It is the history of this breed that we must study and learn from and strive to maintain the good and improve on the not so good.
We started with what we had - good examples of the breed and they went on to have very successful show careers and literally set the world on fire over here. All the beginning pictures that we have of the Doberman showed poor angulation both front and rear and lack of forechest. I have a signed copy of Philipp Gruenig,s book THE DOBERMAN PINSCHER. They didn't breed at that time for beauty they bred a dog that would stop any man. That was their focus and had the dogs remained as those original dogs both in looks and temperament I do not believe the Doberman would have survived as a breed.
From ADPEF.org
I also think back in those days people were of a mind set to help establish a breed so did send good stock as it reflected back on their entire program. Today it is far more cutthroat sadly.
Go to DPCA.org and read the story of Ilena and the 7 sires - the foundation of todays American Doberman. It is the history of this breed that we must study and learn from and strive to maintain the good and improve on the not so good.
iceman
Active Member
That is so true...while aiming for beauty,sadly we sacrificed the temperament of the breed!!
Dobs4ever
Hot Topics Subscriber
BALANCE - we should breed for both - all and anything else that applies!!! I agree 100% that you can't just breed for one thing. It should be the total package and I see it all the time in the show ring and then on the working field. Sadly it cuts both ways. But I do love the consistency I see in the show dogs you post!!!
F
FredC
Id rather have a well rounded dog, conformation/temperament then an exceptional dog that lacked in either of those departments. My dogs don't need nerves of steel they just need to be confident.. Same with conformation.. They don't need to look perfect but the closer the better im happy with simple confidence good health. Looks seem more hit and miss in purebred dogs then in mutts. Weird but true.
F
FredC
beauty is in the eye of the beholder
you know the entire time i was typing my post thats what i was thinking but forgot the saying. Hard to breed the perfect looking dog because we all have our personal preferences.. Thank god we can choose from more then one or two.
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