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Featured American VS European Doberman

Discussion in 'Doberman Talk and Discussions' started by FredC, Aug 29, 2010.

  1. FredC

    FredC Guest

    What is important in this discussion of European Dobermanns versus American Doberman Pinschers, is that neither is definitively "better." They are simply different. What matters is that you understand the differences between the two, and choose the dog that is right for you.

    The modern American Doberman Pinscher originated in Germany as a personal protector for individuals and families, and for police and military work. Throughout Europe, this is still the case. Here in the United States, Doberman are predominantly used as family dogs, show (conformation) dogs, and obedience dogs. Their former reputation for being aggressive, dangerous dogs has long since passed. The American Doberman Pinscher is now known to be gentle, loving, and sensitive.

    In Europe, the Dobermann is viewed in a somewhat different light. The breed is known to be a "sharp" dog used primarily for protection, working sports (e.g., Schutzhund), and law enforcement. Over the years, our family has hosted many foreign exchange students from Europe, and we inevitably get questions from concerned European parents about having Dobermans in our home, with each explaining to us that in Europe, these dogs are not family pets, but are used only for police/guard work and Schutzhund.

    Since the Doberman came to the USA about fifty years go, American breeders have bred primarily for the conformation standards we see today at AKC dogs shows. Much of the sharper, working aptitude originally found in the breed has been lost in that process. European breeders breed to a standard that puts working temperment first (in fact a dog must pass a temperment test aka ZTP before the dog may legally be bred) but also embraces a physical standard. In the USA, anyone can breed a litter of puppies and many successful American breeders deem mere conformation wins within the AKC as justification to breed litters of puppies. European breeders believe that breeding litters of puppies for their appearance alone, without rigid testing of the dogs' working ability, is unethical and detrimental to the breed bred primarily for its working (protection) abilities.

    Notice that American dogs are called "Doberman Pinschers" (note that Pinscher in German means "terrier), while Europeans have long since dropped the terrier additive ("pinscher") and simply call the breed the Dobermann (two N's as in the originator of the breed, Mr. Dobermann, spelled his name). Some Dobermann admirers claim to see, upon close examination of the American Doberman Pinscher, subtle confirmation changes from the original Dobermann that resemble the terrier, making the name differences appropriately reflective of the changes to the American Doberman Pinscher since's it's arrival in the United States many years ago.
    European breeders reject, to some degree, the variety of elegance and refinement seen in modern American dogs and the lack of working aptitude, and as a result, we find international champions that are heavier, and more masculine dogs with exceptionally confident and stable "working dog" dispositions. American breeders often describe the European Dobermann as too coarse, masculine, thick boned, big, heavy, and too assertive. On the other hand, European breeders often describe the American dog as too delicate, finely boned, feminine, timid, sensitive, and lacking the assertive disposition and drive required to produce a top-quality working dog. Both groups tend to think theirs is the better variety of dog, and some argue that the dogs have diverged to such a degree that the breeds should officially become two different breeds (American Doberman Pinscher and the European Dobermann), must as happened with the Cocker Spaniel (American and English).

    There is some basis for these divergent viewpoints. It is a fact that before a Dobermann's offspring can be registered in Europe, one of its parents MUST hold a Schutzhund title (ZTP). Schutzhund is German for 'protection dog' and refers to a system for testing dogs of working breeds for workability. It has also grown into a popular sport in Europe and somewhat throughout the United Stated, although the American Kennel Club (AKC) does not allow its affiliates to sanction Schutzhund trials.

    An exhaustive review of the literature on the health differences between the American and European dogs reveals a tendency toward the opinion that European Dobermanns are less prone to the genetic defects know to be a problem in the breed here in the USA, although that seems to have changed (and remains open to rigorous debate). Some breeders here in the USA are importing European Dobermanns -- some to reduce the likelihood of the genetic defects common to American Dobermans, some to reinvigorate the working aptitude lost in so many American lines and some for mere profit. Beware of breeders capitalizing on the ability to charge a high price for "European" working Dobermanns. Some are using inferior European stock; some breed quality imported dogs to inferior Americanstock. Other breeders may be carefully choosing their European stock and breeding ethically. Remain skeptical but open, and do your homework to ensure you are getting the quality of dog you are searching (and paying) for.

    Note that we have had extensive conversations with numerous European breeders who readily admit that they export to the USA their least desirable puppies. It is understandable that they wish to keep their top puppies in Europe where they will be campaigned/shown across Europe to promote the kennel's bloodlines. Now that European laws have evolved to prevent dogs that are cropped and docked in countries where it is legally permissible to do so, from showing/competing in the top European shows, it is easier to identify the puppies targeted for export to the USA -- notice that some breeders will have cropped/docked some puppies for exporting. They do not plan to show these dogs, and they crop and dock them to prepare them for export to the USA where the majority of people still strongly prefer Dobermanns with docked tails and cropped ears.
    Source: http://www.texaseurodobermans.com/euro-versus-american.html
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  2. von Cosack

    von Cosack Novitiate

    My preference would be from Peru, I love the way they move, kinda giggilly, very cool. Von
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  3. DreamValley

    DreamValley Well-Known Member

    I am in love with Euro Dobies... but we need to be more realistic.

    Here is the better picture of NA vs Euro:


    I would say Look vs Function.... and I prefer a function.
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  4. Lord

    Lord Jr Member

    To me we got to the point to talk about two different breeds so there is no reason for comparison.
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  5. FredC

    FredC Guest

    You can argue that point but the facts are that they are the same breed with separate standards. Id like to see the best of both worlds, but the best of these two worlds would very greatly just as opinions do. Not argueing your point, because i kind of tend to agree with the first part of your statement, but i would disagree with the second part. IMO.. :)
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  6. DreamValley

    DreamValley Well-Known Member

    I don't agree. I had NA and Euro Dobermans. They are so similar!

    Some of common behaviour... YOU MAY ADD.
    - Be a velcro dog...always want to be in the same room at your side
    - Bark when a doorball rings
    - Prance around like a horse when we come home
    - Wiggle their butt when see us-always
    - Play tug of war-always
    - Stretch every time they get up from a long nap-yup
    - Hangout on the stairs
    - Counter surf by using their long nose
    - Sit next to you while you eat dinner
    - Do anything for a treat
    - Kill their stuffed toys
    - Smack you in the face with their paw
    - Be really well behaved in the car-it means walks
    - Eat sticks like it is their dinner
    - Watch you from a window when you leave the house....
    ...to be continued
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  7. iceman

    iceman Active Member

    Strange enough,there are way too many admirers of euro dobermann in the States, but i have yet to come across a European that admires NA doberman pinscher!
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  8. von Cosack

    von Cosack Novitiate

    Lets have Von tell it like it is, OK!!! The Europeans have a look in their minds that all North American Dobermanns are thinner (slabby) , lack under jaw, have heads without thickness (ofcourse all Dobermanns are THICK headed) hahaha! and don't have the right character to work!!! The People from N/A think all Euro dogs are BIGGER , heavier, have blockie heads and are cow hocked!!!!!! Theres more but this enought, OK!!!

    Well the Euro dog is NOT BIGGER the show people fatten their dogs up for shows thats the new thing there (20 years old) hahaha!!! So there overweight not any taller, they prefer more bone than the standard calls for but again thats the prefernce for now. The N/A dog is not smaller (exception bitches) the vast majority have dogs seen by Euro people are show dogs who's backlines are Brunswick Crrypto and Nellos Luther in there and neither dog would be considered small by any stretch.

    I honestly think the biggest difference is character but I'm not awake enough to go there, another time, OK!!!

    If the looks were to compliment one another then a very nice dog could be formed. A better head from the Euros, a better shoulder angle from the N/A, a bit more bone from the Euro, a slightly longer neck from N/A and a few other points.

    But as I already mentioned I like the dogs from Trenton N J , their tuffer!!!!!!! Von.

    Iceman, the Euro people stereo type N/A dogs, they're abit blinded like some N/A folks are. For everyone who states a complaint theres a dog that will make them reconsider.
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  9. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    There is a distinct difference in temperament - Euros just keeping on working like the energizer bunny, NA dogs just lack the drive and have to be handled very carefully. You can never focus on just on aspect of a dog and succeed - you have to focus on the total dog and that is the biggest challenge of conformation - you can't evaluate temperament or drives -and the working side of dogs fell by the wayside. We all know that right now people have become paranoid about health - we have problems, but I don't see it correcting itself anytime soon. Euro's claim that they are healthier but our dogs originally came from the same place, sometimes I think it is a lot of thinking the grass is greener on the other side. Euros have done a better job on temperament and working drives but they have the interest to make it happen. Every little hamlet over there has a working group. Here they are few and far between and for many years it was done almost in secret here, there it seems to be more a part of life. That is why is blows me away that they managed to implement the non/crop dock issue with their dogs. Most of the great breeds originated over there, seems to me they had the backing to overcome the issue and did nothing or were asleep at the wheel.

    I personally have seen I also think that American's have made the dogs soft to a point- they don't let them be dogs. JMHO
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  10. iceman

    iceman Active Member

    You have hit the nail on the head...Americans love to have a Labrador in a Doberman suit...:lmao:
    If the dog is too active or barking at the neighbors dog...neuter him..that will calm him down.. :lmao:
    no disrespect to anyone but,majority of the people i come across on these forums cannot handle a Euro dobe.
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  11. FredC

    FredC Guest

    I think being able to handle them is subjective, I prefer to think most dont have the drive themselves to do right by them. Far to many people want the flavor of the week, and like the way the Euros are presented in pictures. Many people here in the Us only have hands on knowledge of the American lines. Ive found when trying to place my own Euro litter that most potential buyers couldnt be bothered by my repeated warnings of the elevated level of "enthusiasm" "Drive" The general public is not even aware of the two separate standards, and although its becoming more common, Most average dog owners in the US have no idea how big the differences really are. I personally love the extra energy and drive packed into the Dobermann.

    Another thing you will notice about pictures of Americans vs Pictures of Europeans is the NA lines are generally shown under a year while European dobermann pictures seem to be shown more as mature adults. I rarely if ever see a good show doberman pinscher brought up in pictures after the age of two or three.
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  12. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    It is not a matter of handling them - It is they want it quick and easy and dog training is not easy. I know a couple of Gunner's litter mates had to be returned because the people did not have the level of experience and weren't willing to learn. Had Gunner gone somewhere other than here he would have been returned. I remind him of that just about every day. He doesn't care if I will just gave the darn tuggy and PLAY. But he doesn't play fair. He always has to win. Tried to pull me to the ground and loves to wrestle and fight. Then punches me in the stomach with both front feet and he comes in for the kill. I am too old for this stuff. I love him - everyday I tell him right along with the sending him back thing that he is darn lucky he cam e here and that I don't send him back. What a boy!!! Non like him.
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  13. DreamValley

    DreamValley Well-Known Member

    That's so much true!

    ... and they don't like to be a "coach potato" what is not easy to handle! :lmao: No cuddles? I have hard time to get used to....

    On a serious note, I have no problems to handle an intact Euro boy and totally admire his personalities.
    None of Gino's litter mates were returned to a breeder. As far as I know they all are great family dogs.

    My simple theory: "There are no bad dogs, only bad owners."
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  14. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Von sorry just read my post - did not come across right -
    What I was trying to say was it is not that they can't handle them as much as they don't want to spend the energy and time to learn and that is why they can't handle them. Gosh I hope I got it right this time.
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  15. FredC

    FredC Guest

    I think thats what i was saying to. ;)

    Doberman Pinscher = happy to chew through the couch.
    Dobermann = happy to chew through the front door.
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  16. iceman

    iceman Active Member

    Its all a matter of having the time & energy to satisfy the dogs physical & mental needs..
    If you neglect them, they will happily find find something to entertain themselves and you will not like the outcome (ie.. eat the furniture):)
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  17. FredC

    FredC Guest

    it was actually just a joke, Meaning the one would prefer to chill on the couch and eat it up as opposed to the other wanting to chew through the door to get out and run. :D
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  18. Pitts

    Pitts Hot Topics Subscriber

    I have both an american lines female, and a euro lines male. The female works in obedience etc, while I work the male in SchH, and will be taking him to the conformation ring as well.
    as for the differences, the easiest ones to give testament to, is that the euro boy never stops, he wants to play and go go go, in the house he always has a ball or kong in his mouth and constantly brings it to me to fight with him for it, or to throw for him to get. While the female is content to lay on the couch with my wife. The female is much more sensitive to corrections, where the male is a bit harder. I love them both, but while they are absolutely so similar in most ways, its the subtle differences that make working the male, so much fun. He just never shuts off, and never slows down.
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  19. madi

    madi Member

    Not sure if mine is euro or not he isn't going to be no 120lb doberman but seems to run on the large side and has very dark mahogandy marking which I'm told shows he has a euro background atleast. I don't have any pictures on my laptop and I'm not at home so can't upload any but someone who can tell me if he has some euro in him look back on some post where I put pics up and see what you think I would like to know which mine is, if ur bored and have nothing to do on your xmas break! haha. merry xmas guys
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  20. Figaro Betelges

    Figaro Betelges New Member

    I am a fan of the euro Dobes. We imported our boy from Serbia and Will 100% import our next pup as well. Our last dobe was an American boy and he was one of my best dogs ever but he had zero work drive and would never have been a schutzhund / conformation prospect.

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