Denissov43
Notable member
that is the Korung site and the winners... the dogs shown were Danish bloodlines... Korung competitors come from all over... there were German dogs there too...
that is the Korung site and the winners... the dogs shown were Danish bloodlines... Korung competitors come from all over... there were German dogs there too...
iceman
Active Member
Your Gemma is a euro bitch,how can you call her litter North American? you can't use that example to explain this situation.
All dogs in Europe are European lines..if we start separating them as French/Danish/Serbian/Russian/ there is no end to it....if you go back 5-6 generations, you will find all Serbian dogs descended from Italian & Dutch lines..why do you call them Serbian now?
Parents of Athos may have come from another country but being bred & born in Denmark and winning the top title means 5-10 years from now on, he will be in many Danish born dogs pedigree..will you still keep segregating his progeny as Serbian lines?
Ataro
Notable member
Their profile pages are in German, those dogs' ancestors (most of the kennels) are all German, I checked and I speak German fluently just so you know. Vom Heiligenwald, Furstenfeld etc. are all German words and kennels. The breeders and the owners are both in Germany, you can see that clearly from their email addresses (.de = Deutschland = Germany) and postal addresses (Frankfurt am Main, Wehrheim, Melle) in addition to the dogs having only been shown in Germany (Gießen, Dortmund etc.) I've been to most of those places and I am 300% sure that they are not in Denmark. The only kennel names in those dogs' pedigrees shown that aren't German are: Berkensingel (Dutch), Jotunheim (Danish), Grenzturm (Austrian), Del Citone (this one is obvious).
Max Hawk
Hot Topics Subscriber
Yikes you guys I love both my dogs! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! I like my dogs with balance and beauty and brains and not too heavy of bone but sturdy and not too spindly either! I have found these traits can fit both Euro and American types! Of course peeps have their preferences too so live and let live! It's like some people liking Quarter horses and some liking Arabians they both have their place in the kingdom geez
I don't think anyone yet has proven that Euro or American has an advantage when it comes to health or longevity either!
Wish they could live as long as horses do
I don't think anyone yet has proven that Euro or American has an advantage when it comes to health or longevity either!Wish they could live as long as horses do
Carol Crosby
Novitiate
Euro's have a great energy to a point where if you don't stop them, they work themselves to death, they love working for you but they can also be very house-like.
I'm concerned about health aswell. I've put my baby to sleep in November after he just turned 1 year. He suffered from DCM and today we discovered our female has a thyroid gland condition, something to do with a hormone that isn't functioning normal and her immune system is attacking her thyroid gland. Both dogs come from strong and healthy bloodlines and I'm getting tired of hearing tales of bloodlines this and bloodlines that, it got me worried to the point where I'm asking myself if health issues are the prime focus with breeders today. Here in Europe I feel the community expects Doberman owners to work their dogs, to be active in training and do some kind of sport and focus more on the beauty side, rather then looking at the health issues. Here in Europe, most pure bred dogs have the most health issues, I knew this problem exsisted but I'm reading more and more these days about young Dobermans getting sick, it's getting more common.
I don't think it's just an Amaican problem, Americans just tend to read about it less from the European side because all the major Doberman forums, are American controlled and Europeans are not as community orientated as Americans are... or atleast, that's what I'm guessing. I read a lot, rarely mix in these days, but my feeling and this is purely my perspective, is that beauty is put before health more common then most people think. You just gotta have a perfect looking dog that fits the standard cause they gotta look good on the field, that's the kind of vibe I'm getting...
Well... just my rant I guess but my two cents non the less
Dakota it is very interesting to here that in Europe you are seeing dogs dying so young from DCM. I thought it was just here in America. Your gene pool was bigger I thought. It just goes to show that even good breeders are turning a blind eye to health versus getting that conformation dog. I know of a dog who got his CH at 9 mos old and they let someone breed to him before he was a year old. Long before hips, cardio testing etc. could be done. That is irresponsible to me. Our breed is one of the sickest and these practices by those who clam to love it are reprehensible and foster the problems. I have always thought that we in Amer should adopt the standards of proven health and apptitude before our animals are allowed to breed. Like with the GSDs in Europe. This would slow down the indiscirminate breeding because a 2 yr old dog could look very differnet then he/she did as a 9 mo old puppy.
Carol Crosby
Novitiate
Wow it never took us more then 4 maybe 5 months to get our long show crops to stand. We would take them down every 5 days to rest for a day then up.Stacy:
you can take her to the groomers and get her ears shaved... inside more so than outside. When I show Gemma the groomer shaves her ears completely out of the inside. So that makes it alot easier to use glue...
I used the EZ earz method (google it) and I told Maureen Haarkenson here on DC about it... perhaps you can find the thread... she is now doing the glue in method with her dog Max... she did a great job!
I found that it worked really good but you will have to re glue the foam inserts in her ears about every 3-5 days as the glue will come loose and the foam falls out.
She has a long show crop and it is going to take you many more months to get those to stand and stay up...
it took us till Gemma was 11 months old. One Doberman gal STILL has her males ears taped at 15 months! A friend of mine from Serbia, coned and taped his bitch till she was 18 months old! Long show crops take a long time to stand and stay up! SO you will be really really good at this when its all said and done!! practice makes perfect!!
Dobs4ever
Hot Topics Subscriber
Carol you can see how easy it is to buy into misrepresentation and those on the Euro kick have used it well. Why do we seem to forget they all came from the same gene pool and during the war were almost to the point of extinction over there so had to go outside to bring them back what they had shipped out to save.
While there are a few breeders who have turned a blind eye the vast majority have not. We work hard to use the inadequate tools we have in hopes that they will by the luck of the draw help us avoid land mines. We must also alwayy keep in mind that Dobermans are have a small gene pool everywhere these days and if the drastic decline continues we are fast approaching the danger zone. So while some stand on the side lines and take pot shots and have confinced some that no one cares -many are down in the trenches taking the abuse daily as we strive to find answers to the unanswerable and hope for the future.
We must all work together to assure the future for our beloved Dobermans.
Denissov43
Notable member
using your logic here, Iceman, any subsequent litter that My european imports, that were imported into the USA from Russia and Poland, when bred here in the USA and then BORN here in the USA, would then become an "American lineage" because they were BORN in the USA?
You used this logic with your statement about Athos being OF "DANISH bloodlines"....?
I said he is NOT Danish, he is Middle European actually Serbian and Russian actually, so I am just repeating it again for clarity sake, so you can explain how he becomes Danish because of his 'citizenship' in Denmark?
Athos is Middle European bloodlines, and there are DANISH bloodline dogs just ask any TRUE DANISH Kennel what their bloodlines are and they will clearly state, that Athos is NOT danish... Just because he was born there... of Middle European (Serbian/Russian) bloodlines. There is a distinct Difference if you are DANISH as to what is true Danish and what is an 'import" bloodline. Your Logic would make My import bloodlines eventually USA lines by virtue of their 'citizenship' status.
There are actually Danish bloodlines that originated and have been bred in Denmark for decades... just like there are Italian Bloodlines, Serbian, Russian, Polish, Romanian, German, etc.... Europe is a big place with many countries that claim and guard their bloodlines voraciously! I do NOT think that Massimo Santini would like if you said his lines were anything BUT Italian... nor would any German Breeder say that their lines were anything but German... to say that Athos is Danish is like saying because you are a citizen of a country that you no longer have your country of origin. So I am disagreeing with you semantically, which is the fine points of the argument. The facts are the details, the details determine the truth of a statement.
So I still disagree with your position and agree to disagree....
kaloric
Well-Known Member
It really shouldn't be too hard to judge where a line should be considered to belong.
If a dog's recent ancestors are papered under a particular primary registry and have earned status in a particular country's competitions, the line should be considered to belong to that country.
If both of a dog's parents were registered in a different country, which is where their ancestors were well-established, it should be considered to belong to that country's lineage.
If more than half of a dog's grandsires and granddams were registered & papered in a particular country, it should probably be considered to belong to that country's lineage. If they're evenly split, then take the country it's registered in, or if the registration & residence is in a 3rd country, take your pick or call it something generic like "Euro" (if, for example, it has one Serbian parent and the other is Polish, but the dog is living in the USA).
Otherwise, if there are no real guidelines for identifying dog heritage, I will proudly proclaim that Kira is a "Toenail" German Euro-Doberman! After all, I'm sure at least one of her ancestors several generations back was from Germany.
If a dog's recent ancestors are papered under a particular primary registry and have earned status in a particular country's competitions, the line should be considered to belong to that country.
If both of a dog's parents were registered in a different country, which is where their ancestors were well-established, it should be considered to belong to that country's lineage.
If more than half of a dog's grandsires and granddams were registered & papered in a particular country, it should probably be considered to belong to that country's lineage. If they're evenly split, then take the country it's registered in, or if the registration & residence is in a 3rd country, take your pick or call it something generic like "Euro" (if, for example, it has one Serbian parent and the other is Polish, but the dog is living in the USA).
Otherwise, if there are no real guidelines for identifying dog heritage, I will proudly proclaim that Kira is a "Toenail" German Euro-Doberman! After all, I'm sure at least one of her ancestors several generations back was from Germany.
What can AKC and the EURO regulators do about this problem if anything? Is the Doberman Pinscher not worthy enough to continue to exist? I hate regulations that hinder good people from doing their job, but something needs to be done. If we have un reputable breeders they need to find other work and we need to insist on it. Do we insist that Breeder Clubs take action against these folks, or should it go to another knowledgeable org? If we don't support good honest breeders that take health as a #1 priority then I am afraid we will lose the breed, or what we will end up with isn't recognizable. I give praise to all excellent work. It is the lessor that will destroy us. This breed is a special breed and must be protected at all costs. mho
iceman
Active Member
For those who do not know....this "Euro" tag is ONLY used in the US by people, to differentiate dogs of NA origin from dogs of European origin..
In Europe we do NOT differentiate the breed by using tags such a "Euro" or German/Danish/Italian etc..it is simply called the Dobermann!! with two n's
In Europe we do NOT differentiate the breed by using tags such a "Euro" or German/Danish/Italian etc..it is simply called the Dobermann!! with two n's
While this last quote may be true,I sure see a bunch of bickering among the Euro folks.When you follow the breed a little farther down the line,they all come from one place,and it aint Serbia,the USA,Denmark,France,or Cyprus.Segregation?
I do like the last line though,Dobermann!!With two n"s.
Dobs4ever
Hot Topics Subscriber
DPCA changed the spelling in the 60's - Since America went a totally different direction in breeding I suspect that they wanted to distinquish dogs bred here from over there. Does not make sense to me and I would have preferred they not done it.
Just an observations as several of the breeders in UDC have imported and bred pure Euro lines for many years. Their dogs are Euro not American regardless of how long they have been bred here. If no other line is injected then the dogs remain from Euro heritage no American.
I do not think there is as much difference across lines in Europe as there is between American and Euro. Even the SA went a different direction and now have their own distinction . At one point many of the dogs in SA came from NA
Just an observations as several of the breeders in UDC have imported and bred pure Euro lines for many years. Their dogs are Euro not American regardless of how long they have been bred here. If no other line is injected then the dogs remain from Euro heritage no American.
I do not think there is as much difference across lines in Europe as there is between American and Euro. Even the SA went a different direction and now have their own distinction . At one point many of the dogs in SA came from NA
Carol Crosby
Novitiate
Thanks for the wonderful history everyone. I am a DPCA and UDC member and I think I'm going to add the other "n" back. It seems the respectful thing to do.
Dobs4ever
Hot Topics Subscriber
Carol I iknow how you feel. I wish we had not changed it etiher but I have since come to grips with it. Since the Amierican line took a different path than the Euro it just makes since especially since UDC follows the AKC standard in which is is called and registerd here as Doberman Pinscher. For the Euro's it makes sense to me that they are still referred to as Dobermann but they are the same dog and the same background it just helps us distinguish that difference in style.
Dockermann
New Member
NICE ARTICLE!!!
agift4me
Hot Topics Subscriber
Wow, I just love debates! I have seen this debate for years and it reminds me of another one that is just as strong and will continue as much... it's the one on the
Arabian Horse.
There is the original: the "Egyptian", then followed by the "Polish" and now "Russian" (there is also Crabbet and Spanish). Point being,..
they are all "Arabians", they are just separated by "Types" just like the Doberman & Dobermann. They are the same breed, just different type. It is what "one" prefers; I prefere European, I like that "type".
Arabian Horse.
There is the original: the "Egyptian", then followed by the "Polish" and now "Russian" (there is also Crabbet and Spanish). Point being,..
they are all "Arabians", they are just separated by "Types" just like the Doberman & Dobermann. They are the same breed, just different type. It is what "one" prefers; I prefere European, I like that "type".
Dobs4ever
Hot Topics Subscriber
I thought you might find this interesting: Here are pictures of 2 of the foundation sires imported here during WWII - Look at the dogs then and now.
Dictator:
Demetriu
Emperor:
The Euro evolution:
Alpha Le Dobry - considered one of the foundation sires coming down through Euro lines
Ebo Matt
Baron Nike Renewal
Dictator:
Demetriu
Emperor:
The Euro evolution:
Alpha Le Dobry - considered one of the foundation sires coming down through Euro lines
Ebo Matt
Baron Nike Renewal Similar threads
