American VS European Doberman

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I have a friend who is a dog trainer and has owned both NA and Euro Dobes. In his view training a Dobe to bite a sleeve does not prove much, other than they can bite a sleeve. He had an American Dobe that was from show lines who ended up showing great nerve during an attempted home invasion. His wife witnessed the end of the incident and said the trespasser barely escaped with his life. This Dobe was never trained in Schutzhund, just protecting the ones he loved.
As for NA lacking substance. For what? Being a good protector or Schutzhund? Even a scrawny 65lb Dobe can do some damage to a human if it wants to. Look at the English Bull Terrier or Even Staffie. They are among the most protective of dogs and rarely do they ever top out near 60lbs. Staffies(not Amrican) never exceed 40lbs and there have been many incidents where they have protected folks. Just sayin!!
 
onthefence said:
As for NA lacking substance. For what? Being a good protector or Schutzhund? Even a scrawny 65lb Dobe can do some damage to a human if it wants to. Look at the English Bull Terrier or Even Staffie. They are among the most protective of dogs and rarely do they ever top out near 60lbs. Staffies(not Amrican) never exceed 40lbs and there have been many incidents where they have protected folks. Just sayin!!
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The strongest part of English Bull Terrier or Even Staffie (which happens to inflict damage) is their head/jaw which turns into a leathal weapon when combined with the muscle (substance) they have to operate it.
Your NA dobie head doesn't have these features,so its not a matter of total weigt of the dog,its what tools he has to inflict damage.
 
Yeah its hard to get a more narrow snout around a bite vest, but not so hard to to bite off a human finger and intimidate the hell out of a punk who does not know jack about the difference between American and Euro DObes.
My friends American Dobe is 85lbs very protective and willing to attack-would you like to try your luck with him? Maybe the gash in your face(remember American Dobes more agile, they can jump) will be a little less wide than with a Euro. LOL
Here is a question for you. DO Rhodesian Ridgebacks, Kangals, Akbash dogs, Thai Ridgebacks, Cimarrons, Guatemalan Dogos do Schutzhund? No and most would such at it-But they make great protectors regardless.
What if you are attacked by a dog, will your oversized Schutzhund titled Dobie help you? No, his weight will work against him. In South American dog fighting(which i don't condone), agile,lean Dobermans are used. South American Dobes are often leaner than American Dobes, but are generally more game. Truth is a 40 lbs staff could kill you and your dog if it wanted to.
My whole point with this is stop generalizing. If you want to kiss German ass, and think your a tough guy for putting on a padded suit with a tough looking dog who will bite it than be my guest. But don't try and make non euro Dobes out to be spineless, useless dogs, just because they don't excel at your sport. Louis Dobermans dog looked nothing like Euro Dobes, were only about 45 lbs, but he trusted them with his life.
 
Well better tell the police dog trainers that you don't train a dog to bite the sleeve. Just shows how litte some folks know. It is teaching the dog to target the gun arm and the police would not use it if it did not work. Man has to wear a sleeve to protect his arm.

And just so you know. Iceman is a along well respected member here, Might tone things down til you get to know us. No one likes being hit over the head right out of the box. Based on this discussion I change my answer to your intro thread and I do not recommend a Doberman for you at all. You are more bull terrior material.
 
Dobs4ever said:
Well better tell the police dog trainers that you don't train a dog to bite the sleeve. Just shows how litte some folks know. It is teaching the dog to target the gun arm and the police would not use it if it did not work. Man has to wear a sleeve to protect his arm.

And just so you know. Iceman is a along well respected member here, Might tone things down til you get to know us. No one likes being hit over the head right out of the box. Based on this discussion I change my answer to your intro thread and I do not recommend a Doberman for you at all. You are more bull terrior material.
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So basically if you feel the American Doberman has the ability to protect you, you are not allowed to voice that opinion here?
LOL really funny about expecting your Dobe to disarm the bad guy. If someone has a gun pointed at you, better not let your dog do anything stupid that will get you both killed.
I grew up in Meddellin, Colombia I have known killers and they would not be stupid enough to hold a gat in the air while a Doberman grabs their arm. LOL

If Iceman can disrespect American Dobes by saying they are pretty much useless, why can't I disagree and point out the fact that Schutzhund is not needed to own a protective dog and that many American Dobes are perfectly capable of doing so. My friends Dobe defended his home, a show Dobe. How can that be?

Its just my opinion but I think Schutzhund is for overweight Suburban guys with an inferiority complex trying to look tough. Trust me I have seen the worst where I come from, and you will never realize who will be the guy or dog that can roll you. When Americans and Europeans come to Colombia, those who think they are bad asses usually get rolled by 15 yr old kids who know the streets. And NO they don't have large fists and great tools to break you with. They just have a will to survive like a Dobe does and know exactly when and where to hit you. LOL
 
It is not that you disagree - i too have seen American dobes that have the fire and I have seen Euros that don't. Both worlds have dogs that are more for show and dogs that are more for working.

No one said a dog has to be trained to be protective. Schutzhund was desigend to test the heart, courage, stamina and willingness to work of the working GSD. It is the standard program still used today to train police dogs. So it is just as sweeping a statement to slam schutzhund as NA Dobes.

Then folks who liked it made it into a sport and competition. What is wrong with that??? No on said you had to participate in it.

So there are exceptions to all the rules and most of the time when people make wide sweeping statements there are always exceptions that don't fit. It is not the message but the way it was delivered. I just don't think being hostile is going to help keep the discussion going or win friends. You also have to allow for the fact that people have different experiences and views.
 
I don't get the point of this thread, or am I being naive?

Surely dobes are dobes? And it's not a case of my dog can jump higher, bark louder, be more aggressive,my dads bigger than your dad etc etc.

Dobermanns have always been around my family since I can remember ( born in 1973) and when I look back at old family photos you see differences from dobes then to now.

To be honest I've never seen an American dobe in the flesh, but I was once at a Scottish Dobermann club show 2 years ago and it amazed me how many different shapes and sizes of dogs that were on show that day. Obviously mine was the best there, lol.

In my eyes I like all dobes whether they are from Europe, America or anywhere else in the world.
 
onthefence said:
Its just my opinion but I think Schutzhund is for overweight Suburban guys with an inferiority complex trying to look tough.
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You really aren't starting out on a good foot here, dude. Try being less hostile in your approach and maybe folks will have an ear for what you say. Starting off by insulting people is not a good idea. The above statement is an offense to me. I am not any of what you claimed above but I love Schutzhund. What you stated is like a slap in the face from someone who doesn't even know you. Have you even tried the sport? I'm guessing no or that you were rejected. This sport is not about looking tough, it is about control and precision. We teach the dogs how to bite properly, how to bite correctly, and when to bite or not. But that is simply the protection portion. You have completely left out the tracking and obedience. I find that funny since obedience is really the most important factor and it is found in all three phases and you cannot progress in any of them without it. This sport is about creating a well-rounded dog that can be a great protector but more importantly a great member of society. It is based on real life scenarios and needed skills in personal protection and police dogs, tracking down the missing person or bad guy, obeying their handler, retrieving items, scaling obstacles, being street safe, protecting their owner, restraining a bad guy, etc. They just happened to take it and turn it into a sport with awards. No different than when police dogs compete in their annual trials. These trials show off the teams' hard work, the breeders' hard work, and which dogs deserve to be bred or honored.

Maybe now that you understand all that we can get this discussion back to what it is supposed to be about, discussing the differences in the typical Dobermans found in different parts of the world.
 
Surely dobes are dobes? And it's not a case of my dog can jump higher, bark louder, be more aggressive,my dads bigger than your dad etc etc.

Good post Mad Vic. But unfortunately too many want to one up - It does not matter what one does with their dogs just that they do something postiive. Some like one thing some like another. We should all be supprotative of anything anyone does because it is way above doing nothing.

I understand the reasons for the differnt fan clubs - NA/ Euro and there are good and bad in both. You can't throw out and entire population based on the one or two dogs you know. While I agree with a lot of what onthefence s says he just came on too strong to start. Humans like it or not need to be courted a little before hitting us over the head. I do hope he sticks around because I would like to learn more about his experiences growing up and his perceptions. It is how we all learn.
 
I apologise for the statement about schutzhund and I really did not mean it. It just got to me when Iceman implied that an American Dobe did not have the tools to protect because its muzzle is a bit more narrow. He is entitled to his opinion regardless. My friends NA DObe has accidentally nipped me in play and I can tell you I felt it and If a criminal felt it i don't think he would be sticking around to long.
 
My point was that generalizing is wrong both ways. to say NA Dobes don't have tools to protect you is over generalizing as is what I said about schutzhund, which was a really bad stereotype I knew was not true. I got upset sometimes when people insult others choice of dogs and make sweeping statements, so I lashed out doing exactly the same. I admire those who are dedicated to Dobermans no matter the venue.

I feel that when people say NA Dobes do not have big enough jaw or head, they mostly mean for the sport of Schutzhund. And my only point being that Schutzhund is not real life, and even if a NA dog does not have the grip of a Euro Worker it still has teeth, is strong, and with a bit of drive can deter most aggressors.
 
Just to clear out he confusion....my reply (which you thought was offensive) was just an attempt to state that if a 40-50lb dog is going to be affective,it will need to have a strong head/muzzle & substance to go with it!
It is not an insult or my personal opinion that NA dobies lack in this dept..
 
Maybe I misunderstood you, but I thought when you said that Dobermans lack the feature of the strong jaw, like BT's And Staffies you were implying they were all useless protectors. I goes you were just stating the difference because it is true a Bullies does have a stronger jaw. I only meant that even a NA Dobe if he has the nerve to use it, could inflict some damage and deter a common criminal. I am sorry my friend for jumping on you. Although my english is pretty good there still some misunderstanding since it is not first language:)
 
To an extent it is true that NA Dobes are loosing underjaw which means teeth are getting smaller - we are seeing this trend in the breed ring - It is why I bred to SA and brought in some Euro blood to help improve on these two things. But even a dog bite from a Chi does damage and hurts.

The standard calls for the head and muzzle to be of equal length - so that is what is correct with sufficient stop so it does not appear to slide down into a more collie looking muzzle. The Euros have done a better job keeping bone substance but a lot of our NA dobes have very nice bone it is just in a smoother appearing package.

I am sure we all agree that SA, NA or Euro we are much happier with the appearance than the first Dobermans which were very scrappy dogs.
 
I actually have come across dogs bred in Germany (recently!) on breeders' sites that look like Mr. Dobermann's dog :confused:, the only difference was these were a little bigger.
 
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