American VS European Doberman

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Update: I have a friend who is a retired Doberman and German Shepard breeder, and she said that a lot of the euro doberman breeders are trying to breed for a thicker coat (not longer but thicker) because people have been breeding for the sleek look and I guess there are a lot of genetic coat problems that are getting out of control, especially in the blues.. She lives in eastern Europe half the year and she said 90 percent of dobermans out there have coats like roosters, they are technically disqualified as show dogs but they breed the thicker coat dogs with the sleek coat to make it thick enough to protect the skin and dog from harsh weather but not so think that it waves and disqualifies the dog. So rooster is a stepping stone to better genetics I guess haha
 
One dobe appears to be a puppy and the other is a well mature dog at 6 years old, there will definitely be a difference. Especially considering the owners of the top are not doing a good job at setting their dog up for success...I feel they are pushing it too far with the "joke"

We'd love to learn more about you and your dogs, univers so please feel welcome in hopping over to the introduce yourself section and creating a thread!
 
univers said:
I guess this shows the difference between Euro VS Am Dobermann:

Am dobie
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GCM0phNqL0g#
Click to expand...

I just tried this with Ashra, at first she was confused at my barking and barked back, then she went insane and took the toy off me and has been running around the apartment for the last 5 minutes. I guess she's a secret Euro or something, then?

**Okay, this study may be a little invalid on my part, since she's from SA, not NA.
 
Well interesting but I will tell you this the first video is definately how Jake would respond and he's all Eruo! LOL! Although I agree with Rits about the age of the dog also making a difference! Max is mostly American and he is braver than Jake in almost every aspect:confused: Euro or American to me has not a lot to do with it... just like people they are all different and react in a way consitent with their personality makeup. Some are alpha etc and some are beta and so on;) JMO but I have had a lot of dogs and I don't think I'm far off. It can be difficult to overcome sometimes when a dog is too timid and also if a dog is too aggressive! Not impossible but it can make training tougher depending on what you want the dog to accomplish:2cents
 
Ups I didn’t see it was a puppy, thought it was a small female. Anyway, no normal euro puppy would ever find this frightening. I have had several euro dobermanns myself, and I do not recognize this behavior. I have however had “problems” with a dog/puppy that have been too forward and bold, not scared of anything. It felt like the dog gave me DCM, since I was afraid it would get hurt.
hey Max, let me see Jake's pedigree;-)
When it comes to health, the euro dobermann is as unhealthy and struggling with the same health issues as the am dobermann. I also believe that a dog no matter where it’s from most of the time will turn out the way it is brought up to be. A good example is a dog I had in my custody a couple of weeks which was very quiet, well adjusted, week, soft and had no fighting spirit. He was a nice dog though, but his behavior didn’t resemble any of my own dobermanns. (I know he had some am blood in his bloodlines) I learned later that his full brother from the same litter was competing in IPO trials. So I guess there must have been some fighting spirits and courage hidden somewhere in his DNA.
 
Definitely agree with you there, Max Hawk . It also depends on the individual dog... so far the bravest dog I've ever had was a medium sized terrier mix that fought a GSD that was running at us barking aggressively (the GSD, which obviously had no nerve and was all bark and no bite thankfully, decided that a comparatively midget-sized dog hanging off his neck by its teeth was not his cup of tea and took off back to his owner)

Just because a Doberman isn't Euro doesn't mean that it has no drive, is a couch potato etc. unless you got it from a breeder who was specifically breeding for that kind of temperament. I'm still waiting to discover Ashra's inner coach potato, which is her "true character", if I believe half of what I read. She's not an NA dog, but the only Euro she has in her is back a few generations on her Mexican grandmother's side. Never once have I had a cuddly dog to chill out with, which is supposedly what you get if you don't have a Euro - the only time she's still and calm is when she's sleepy or just waking up.
 
univers said:
Ups I didn’t see it was a puppy, thought it was a small female. Anyway, no normal euro puppy would ever find this frightening. I have had several euro dobermanns myself, and I do not recognize this behavior. I have however had “problems” with a dog/puppy that have been too forward and bold, not scared of anything. It felt like the dog gave me DCM, since I was afraid it would get hurt.
hey Max, let me see Jake's pedigree;-)
When it comes to health, the euro dobermann is as unhealthy and struggling with the same health issues as the am dobermann. I also believe that a dog no matter where it’s from most of the time will turn out the way it is brought up to be. A good example is a dog I had in my custody a couple of weeks which was very quiet, well adjusted, week, soft and had no fighting spirit. He was a nice dog though, but his behavior didn’t resemble any of my own dobermanns. (I know he had some am blood in his bloodlines) I learned later that his full brother from the same litter was competing in IPO trials. So I guess there must have been some fighting spirits and courage hidden somewhere in his DNA.
Click to expand...
In case you misunderstood me. I simply meant that within a litter there will be a range of bold to more mellow dogs! In any litter of pups. Jake is much more mellow than my older dog some of which is his age as he is a year and seven months. He has a very good pedigree and I don't need to show his to make my point! Laughably he is the one most folks are afraid of between the two dogs because he will act out quite strongly and bark at ya..but it's just a result of his being more unsure of a situtation.. just as the dog in the first video. He is very smart and trainable but it does take more confidence training with him than other dogs that I have had:cool:
 
I didn't see univers' last post, but one thing that annoys me is when Euro dogs are excused for their temperaments by saying they had a non-Euro dog in them, but if ever there is a high drive well performing non-Euro dog, it has to be because there's some dog in their blood that's Euro. Can't you just give praise where it's deserved?
 
Good to hear that there are some American dobermann that still have their drives. We do have dobermanns in Europe that descendents from American dobermanns. After World War 2 a lot of breeders from different countries imported American dobermanns, but later more and more breeders went back to lines from Germany and Netherland. They either crossed their old dogs with new blood or started over. The reason was because their old dogs didn’t have the same traits and drives, strong and bold temperament as the German type had and it was impossible to compete with the German type on both show and working fields.

There are some European dogs that also lack good nerves, drives and so on, and we also distinguish between working and show type. Most of the dogs you find on dobermann review are thought of as the show type! Many of these dogs have spent more of their lives in show than on the working field! They have very skilled handlers that work their dogs so that they will pass the minimum requirements of ZTP or maybe IPO 1. I even heard that some pay under the table for their titles. Even if the dog is euro Dobermann you are not guaranteed that the dog have traits that are desirable for a dobermann, there are too many breeders here in Europe who doesn’t really know what they're doing, and the breed is suffering because of that. Be aware when purchasing a Dobermann from Europe, that not all European countries require ZTP before breeding and stay away from the famous inbred dogs!

I do not think you will find a dog with a temperament like the Golden Retriever and a strong and bold dog like American Pit-bull in the same dobermann litter. Yes of course there are differences, but I believe most important reason why puppies from the same litter develop differently is because of how they are brought up to be by their owner. Remember only 30 % of the dogs behavior comes from genes, the rest is influenced by how the dog is trained and how his environment has been.

What I do not understand is why the same breed in both looks and temperament are so completely different. Why has the American type gone so far away from the original standard, and why did the American start breeding for different traits since 1930. I am not saying that one type in general are worse than the other type, only that the same breed has now been divided into 2 different types, and it makes it more difficult to borrow blood from each other when both looks and traits are so different.
 
So that no one will get offended, I don’t think that the euro vs. am dobermann differ from being good companion, best friend and family dog. They both do this job perfectly, and that’s why we love the breed so much. I once had a dobermann girl from euro show lines, but she had some faults on her looks so we ended our show career. On a personal level for me this dog was as good as any champion, and I would never trade her for a champion dog. I would never breed her though, but as a best friend, training partner, personal protector, family dog she was the greatest. I believe no matter whom and what you dog descendents from, you would never trade your dog. Your dog is the best champion in your heart, and that is how it should be!

But what I am trying to discuss is on a general level, not if your private-owned American lined dog is or is not afraid of a small stuffed toy. ;-) I believe most dog should pass that stuffed toy test, I only put my first post on the tip to create a discussion. :-D

What I would like to discuss and highlight is why they have evolved so differently. We once had the same standard, but then something happened on the way and the breed evolved in two different directions. The dobermanns are one of the few breeds that actually were designed to be a guard and protection dog.
Just so you know it, we are afraid that our European Dobermann also will lose their abilities that enable them to be a solid, sturdy protection dogs. I have read several articles and books about American police officers who find it very sad that they no longer can use American Doberman Pincher in duty, because they lack the hardness and psyche to withstand the strain of an all-purpose police dog. I've also read that there were previous dogs of American bloodlines that tackled this type of work very well. Where are those bloodlines and what happened?
 
Strictly speaking, it should be "AKC vs FCI", because most countries are under the FCI and follow the same standards (Mexico and Argentina included - where my dog's lines are from). I have spoken to quite a few breeders in Europe that tend to believe that only two types of Doberman(n) exist: "American and European", but that doesn't account for the rest of the world. For example, in Australia you can find "import European bred litters" but you can't find "American Dobermans" - many breeders mix lines from the UK, Europe, SA, NA but bearing in mind that those places are quite far away unless the breeder imports all their dogs, it's very unlikely that the sires come from overseas with the exception of if they are extremely popular and have frozen semen available.

I was being sarcastic with my reply to the video you posted, my dog isn't a NA Doberman, but since she's from SA... well that was the joke, I thought you caught my drift. I have heard about the breeding strategy for a softer temperament in the US in the last 20 years or so, but as far as I know this hasn't happened in any other countries (I'm not from the US, Americans please correct me if I'm wrong). I really haven't met any American Dobes personally, so I can't generalize - all I can say is that it depends on the individual dog more than you might think, and I have seen two extreme temperament variations within the same litter.
 
Believe me; we do distinguish between show and working dobermann here in Europe. I guess the euro breeders you have been in contact with are breeding from show lines, because they do advertise their dog as working and show dog! Most breeders breed from these lines! If you had been speaking to a working breeder, I believe you would get a different point of view.

Yet it doesn’t mean that dogs from the show lines can’t work nor has traits we value high in a working prospect. The same goes for working dobes which have done very well on show. The difference is that the breeder puts one trait above the other in their breeding programs, but if we go hunting on differences in their pedigree you will see that they have common ancestry further back in their pedigree.

I also know about dogs from the same litter that have shown totally different behavior both on character and traits, but most of the time it has with how the dog is raised, and not what they have gotten from their bloodlines. (30% of the dog behavior is from genes, the rest is up to the dog owner.) The dobermann is very hard line bred to achieve puppies with similar temperaments, traits and appearance as their ancestors. Like I said in an earlier post, of course there are differences in one and the same litter but normally not as big as a Golden vs Pittbull!
 
After World War 2 a lot of breeders from different countries imported American dobermanns, but later more and more breeders went back to lines from Germany and Netherland.
Read more: http://www.doberman-chat.com/community/index.php?threads/american-vs-euro-dobermann.6991/page-7#ixzz1x19tKKZ4
Click to expand...

One thing that might be important to remember is that the reason Germany imported dogs back from the USA is that the war almost destroyed the dogs population over there. So they sent dogs here to be sure to preserve the breed then when the war was over they imported some back to rebuild their stock - of course they then went to other countries to bring in more blood - it was not because of the lack in the Amer dobe as insinuated. .

What I would like to discuss and highlight is why they have evolved so differently. We once had the same standard, but then something happened on the way and the breed evolved in two different directions. The dobermanns are one of the few breeds that actually were designed to be a guard and protection dog.
To NOTE: The standard is still the same regarding temperament. But if the AR groups continue to win on their "weak kneed, soft shelled, half baked approach" you will see the temperament part of the standard changed also. The do not want us to do anything with our dogs and they sure don't don't approve os Schutzhund. How dare we WORK our dogs

Just so you know it, we are afraid that our European Dobermann also will lose their abilities that enable them to be a solid, sturdy protection dogs. I have read several articles and books about American police officers who find it very sad that they no longer can use American Doberman Pincher in duty, because they lack the hardness and psyche to withstand the strain of an all-purpose police dog. I've also read that there were previous dogs of American bloodlines that tackled this type of work very well. Where are those bloodlines and what happened?
Read more: [URL='http://www.doberman-chat.com/community/index.php?threads/american-vs-euro-dobermann.6991/page-7#ixzz1x1DBFjxe[/QUOTE']http://www.doberman-chat.com/community/index.php?threads/american-vs-euro-dobermann.6991/page-7#ixzz1x1DBFjxe[/URL]
Click to expand...

Yes America is not Germany and we did not worry about being attacked back then so Americans who had little opportunity to participate in Schutzhund sport wanted dogs more suited for the show ring and that people could live with easily. By that I mean people who are not experienced in handling a dominant breed dog and as we read so often on these list still get themselves into trouble whether American or Euro. If the person does not know how to handle the dog then the dog can get into trouble because they don't have a knowledgable human handling them.

But whether Amer or Euro the show line dogs from both sides of the world are more showy and not as much about the working and the working are not as much about the showing. So you have a dog that has diverged into two different purposes.

Yes there are dogs in America that work and focus on this ability. Visit the UDC (United Doberman Club)and learn about it - breeders dedicated to maintaining the working ability just as the working folks in Euro do. The show people continue the show venue.

And just so you know - a puppy regardless of breeding if they were not introduced to the toy early on and played lots of tuggy then it would be strange to them Amer or Euro. You yourself said 30% is breeding and the rest is how they are raised. I am not sure where you got that statistic but would like to read the article. I believe it would be closer to 50/50 but that is just my opinion and experience speaking. I have not seen a study on it.

To ADD: you honestly can't compare the reactions of a young dog to an older dog. In Doberman the defence drive is not mature til at least 2 years of age.
 
hey dobs for ever,

You wanted to find an article about my 30% behavior from breeding; well I can recommend a book on a study on this topic: Genetics and Social behavior of the dog, - the classic study . Written by John Paul Scott and John L. Fuller.
I believe psychologists also mean that the same thing goes for us humans as well.
You said that some dogs have traits that are difficult to handle for a novice dog owner, but what I have learned is that the same dog in the right hands could turn out to be the dream dog.

Both FCI and AKC have registered many different breeds. Why not pick a different breed if one breed is too difficult to handle or get the education needed to handle a dog like this? Why ruin the breed to suite your need?

Interesting reading about World War 2, I would love to read more articles about it. I believe you misunderstood what I was saying regarding the World War 2.
I do not know the reason why they imported dobermanns from the US after the WW2. You are probably correct on the reason why they did that, but it was not before the 70ties and the 80ties that they started either to mix their old American bloodlines with German blood or started fresh with pure German bloodlines. I’m talking about 100% European bloodline with no AKC registered dogs in it, because I have checked. The reason they did that and didn’t keep on importing from the US was because their dogs didn’t have a chance on the working field compared to Dutch and German dogs. In my country the German shepherd people just laughed of the tender and soft dobermanns that attended working clubs and failed over and over again on the simple mental test we then had in our country. It was just a mouse in a Lamborghini packaged. The poor dog would pie if someone would say boo to it. After they stared to import pure German and Dutch blood, the breed started to give better results on working competitions and on mental tests. Most breeders then left their old bloodlines or mixed it with German/Dutch blood.
 
Quote: “ To ADD: you honestly can't compare the reactions of a young dog to an older dog. In Doberman the defence drive is not mature til at least 2 years of age.”

First of all I didn’t see that it was a puppy when I posted the first post, and second none of my puppies would react like this to a small stuffed toy. They would just find this hysterical funny, and jump on the toy, toss and bit it. We test our dogs mentally at a certain age, from 12 month to 18 months, that’s because it makes it easier to see the inherited traits. Later it will not be that easy to see what comes from genes and what is from training and socialization. Therefore I do not know if I totally believe in what you are saying here.

If the puppy on the video was my puppy, I would work hard to socialize and train it to feel confident in new situations. This puppy needs owners who certainly has a good knowledge of how to work with an insecure puppy.
 
Univers - that is I think where I was not clear - We do not know if this puppy had any of the tuggy type work done as a very young puppy - Yes if they are worked and played with from 5 weeks on then they would know the game and they would react differenlty. I think htat is the piece of this puzzle we don't know so can't make a blanket statement on the young dog. Too much we don't know and if 70% is how they are raised then that makes the difference you are not allowing for. That is all I am saying. Youtube is not the ultimate judge in any dog arena.
 
univers said:
What I do not understand is why the same breed in both looks and temperament are so completely different. Why has the American type gone so far away from the original standard, and why did the American start breeding for different traits since 1930. I am not saying that one type in general are worse than the other type, only that the same breed has now been divided into 2 different types, and it makes it more difficult to borrow blood from each other when both looks and traits are so different.
Click to expand...

My Take: Americans are Sue happy.. A Driven dog is easily mistaken for an aggressive dog here. To make a long story short, A dog with strong drive can be your bank accounts worst enemy.. Today in the US a dog cannot even defend his own property with force even from an intruder without the potential to be sued by the same criminal.. Watering down the NA Doberman may not be the best idea when it comes to the Dobermann purpose as a personal protection companion, however someone down the line thought it was a great idea when it came to protecting your life savings, freedom and potentially your dogs life. I can not confirm this theory but i believe it carries weight.

I believe this actually started closer to the late 1970's In the 70's NA Doberman Pinschers were tough bad ass machines.. (temperment)
 
Von - I posted on this somewhere - America DOES NOT have the support of the working community like a lot of the Euro countries. When UDC brought over the German judge for UDC Natls here in Warrensburg I ask the jude at dinner what was the biggest difference and he said in every little hamlet in Germany there is a working dog club. WORKING dogs. Working clubs are few and far between here and it is much much harder to find a good one.

So America started its own venue - who are forever captured by beauty followed the AKC show venue - air conditioned , indoor arenas and have really exceled. I think we see it in our children as well today. They don't want to work - Play is the main forcus for many of them. They are far removed from the depression and WWII - they don't understand blood sweat and tears. They much prefer nintendo and excessive thumb movement as their main activity. Sorry just one of my pet peeves.
 
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