2 Dobes, 2 GSDs, 2 Mals

[Ravenbird]

Off leash freedom is the grand prize for dogs & humans alike, and all it takes is dedicated training.

Yes, they all have e-collars on for safety, whether hiking alone or with a pack of dogs. One of the Mals is a new board-and-train for my friend who trains dogs for a living, and Asha and the other mal had never met her before this hike. There were no behavioral problems because all the dogs know better, even the newbie who she'd had for less than 2 weeks.






Not sure if this link to video will work, it's from instagram:

Michele Lilienthal on Instagram

9 likes, 0 comments - theprimaldog on October 30, 2025

www.instagram.com

 

[BGpa]

Very impressive!

The Primal Dog

www.theprimaldog.com

All resonates most powerfully...
Bookmarked for later...

Yes, this is The Way.
Off leash in the wild with a bulletproof recall is freedom,
and the ultimate fun with dogs, to me.
Its the ancestral bonding experience, hunting, exploring, watching...as a pack.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

This is just awesome!!

 

[MichiH]

Wow! Thats a seriously cool pack!

 

[JanS]

Wow what a nice looking pack of dogs and I bet you had a ton of fun!

I'm sure no one is going to mess with you when you have them all together.

 

[Two Dobes]

I love your hiking adventure with friends....so great to see them all so well behaved!! Beautiful photos of alot of hard work paying off!

 

[Ravenbird]

The best part is that all these dogs are so happy - no dog feels pressured or forced to behave. They just do dog stuff knowing not to cross any boundaries. The two GSD's and the other Dobe belong to Michelle, the two Mals belong to 2 different clients. One of them had training with her a couple of years ago and now comes to board with her whenever they leave town. The new Mal has only been around her & her pack for about 2 weeks.

Anyway, not trying to brag on training, just saying & showing that it really isn't that difficult! Boundaries and consistency = fun and freedom.

 

[Aaron56]

The best part is that all these dogs are so happy - no dog feels pressured or forced to behave. They just do dog stuff...

Because they all have shock collars on is why they are behaving.

Even if you are not using it at the time - they know that thing is on their neck and that they CAN be lit up at any time for misbehaving.

Same way a pinch collar can 'control' an otherwise aggressive puller sometimes even if not actually connected to the lead. It being around their neck gets the message across just fine 'once they are trained to it' and know what it can do if they get out of line.

If I had a shock collar for Agatha I would have likely lit her ass up today when I looked over my shoulder and saw her humping the bigger (and more senior) female here. Used harsh words instead and it did get her stop for right then but...

 

[Ravenbird]

Because they all have shock collars on is why they are behaving

You say this like it's a bad thing? Not sure if I'm reading your message as it's intended.

They are behaving because they have been trained to respect their handler and other dogs. We could have left the e-collars off, but why? ...this is an open space hike and other dogs with unknown training/control are often walked out there. If a strange dog ran up aggressively I want full control of my dog. When we see another hiker, with or without a dog, we call our dogs to our side, get about 20 feet off the main path and put them in a down until the other hiker(s) have passed. It's that simple.

If a child is taught to honor and respect other children and adults even when things aren't going their way, they generally act like that after they grow up and their parents are no longer reminding them how to behave. If parents let their children's behavior slide in public, or worse yet, laugh or tell them "good job" when their kid bullies another child or sasses back at their teacher in the 5th grade, those kids are pretty much going to be trouble all their life. Nobody wins. Same with dogs.

Even if you are not using it at the time - they know that thing is on their neck and that they CAN be lit up at any time for misbehaving.

I do not "light up" my dog with her e-collar. E-collar training is simply saying "excuse me, I'm talking to you" - meaning a light tap, not "lighting up" when they do something wrong. You don't fry dogs when they are learning, it's your job to watch their behavior and stop things calmly before they get so aroused they have to be shouted at to stop. The dial is there to adjust to a whisper for a reason.
Yes, collar-wise is a thing. They know when it's off. My dog still behaves without it, still has an instant recall. A seat belt doesn't prevent accidents but it's nice to have one on if you find yourself in a wreck.

 

[Katyusharocket]

You say this like it's a bad thing? Not sure if I'm reading your message as it's intended.

They are behaving because they have been trained to respect their handler and other dogs. We could have left the e-collars off, but why? ...this is an open space hike and other dogs with unknown training/control are often walked out there. If a strange dog ran up aggressively I want full control of my dog. When we see another hiker, with or without a dog, we call our dogs to our side, get about 20 feet off the main path and put them in a down until the other hiker(s) have passed. It's that simple.

If a child is taught to honor and respect other children and adults even when things aren't going their way, they generally act like that after they grow up and their parents are no longer reminding them how to behave. If parents let their children's behavior slide in public, or worse yet, laugh or tell them "good job" when their kid bullies another child or sasses back at their teacher in the 5th grade, those kids are pretty much going to be trouble all their life. Nobody wins. Same with dogs.


I do not "light up" my dog with her e-collar. E-collar training is simply saying "excuse me, I'm talking to you" - meaning a light tap, not "lighting up" when they do something wrong. You don't fry dogs when they are learning, it's your job to watch their behavior and stop things calmly before they get so aroused they have to be shouted at to stop. The dial is there to adjust to a whisper for a reason.
Yes, collar-wise is a thing. They know when it's off. My dog still behaves without it, still has an instant recall. A seat belt doesn't prevent accidents but it's nice to have one on if you find yourself in a wreck.

Very well written.

 

[JanS]

A seat belt doesn't prevent accidents but it's nice to have one on if you find yourself in a wreck.

That's a GREAT analogy! I "lit" Albert up once when he bolted down the driveway toward a noisy county snow plow. It was either feeling that stimulation for a couple seconds or colliding with many tons of metal so it was a great safeguard and he never went down that driveway again.

 

[Rits]

Having an ecollar on an off leash dog in an open space is the responsible thing to do. Usually most places are leashed dogs only or dogs under control. The e-collar is simply an invisible leash that allows freedom. Despite how well a person may think their training is, dogs are not robots. They CAN make mistakes. The e-collar is merely a communication tool that, when introduced and used properly, communicates to the dog a language they understand while keeping the dog happy to work and eager to please. If people think we're out here "lighting up" dogs that wear ecollars, then its clear to me they are not educated on the use of an ecollar enough and should perhaps refrain from commenting on such in the future.

I also see at least one dog without an ecollar so clearly, not all dogs I haven't heard anyone use the term "shock collar" in ages since... e-collars are much more advanced ever since the 90s compared to the shock collars of the 60s, when they were truly that. The only ones I hear use this term are again, people that don't fully understand them or how to use one. Anti-ecollar folk.

 

[BGpa]

"Collar-wise" @Aaron56 and @Ravenbird
Is a thing...I've observed too.

I've on purpose used the e-collar as a very light touch, and specifically limited to
Vibrate
"Hey, I'm tapping you on the shoulder- look and listen...at me"
And
Zap at "Hand of God" source for verboten things - eating a dead rat, coyote poop, wood chips, etc that would be very bad...
I dont want her to decide "I only have to pass this by if Grampa says "leave it".....
So close observation and timing is critical..,doesnt take long.

The trick on anything else is the timing and thanks to some good patient advice by @MikeP on ecollar
(He is new here but many comments at "the other forum")
I probably avoided screwing up Bonnie and

I will say I disregarded some well meant but maybe inexperienced in dobe junior handler advice at a very experienced LEA corporate (Mals/GSDs) training center...on puppy Bonnie... just on my gut instinct...
and Mikes caution...
to wait awhile to be sure I had some inkling of what and how...

The positive reinforcement base for the clear command given has to be built first, as all of the experienced dobe folk say...

The ecollar for us is now just insurance for example on a long walk off leash in the woods...want that to be as bulletproof as you can, imho. Cant recall the last time I had to zap her, and rarely a tap on shoulder if we are working as a team...

Btw: best tip-
Mike Ellis has a great seminar on ecollar use, how to avoid creating suspicious beliefs, etc.

Pros and Cons of Modern Ecollar Training"​

This is more at the train the trainer level but full of highly insightful stuff.

I guess its just common sense that an experienced trainer can do so much, more, with all the tools in the tool box.

The Michael Ellis School for Dog Trainers

Internationally Renowned Teaching “The very best trainer you will find” “Patient, kind, informative-Michael is a people trainer besides being a dog trainer” “Thanks to Michael, I am hooked on dog training :)” There’s a reason the Michael Ellis School for Dog Trainers is one of the top schools in...

michaelellisschool.com

 

[Ravenbird]

I "lit" Albert up once when he bolted down the driveway

There is a time & place for everything, that was the time. I know you know, I just had to clarify it's not an everyday setting to train on. And every dog is different. Reckless got one serious come to Jesus moment when we got our first batch of baby chicks because she is absolutely high prey drive and kill type, and it was one & done - she never looked at a chicken with prey drive again. Asha never needed any e-collar training at all with the chickens. She thought they were fun but had zero thoughts to catch or kill.

I also see at least one dog without an ecollar so clearly, not all dogs

If you're talking about the pack I was with, you might be right, She had 5 and I had one, I didn't ask, or even look, just assumed. There's no way I could do what she does with so many dogs at once. Doesn't matter if they are new to her & the pack or how bad they were when the came to her, I feel totally safe taking Asha with them.

Mike Ellis has a great seminar on ecollar use, how to avoid creating suspicious beliefs, etc.

You're always in good hands if Michael Ellis is teaching it.

 

[Katyusharocket]

Having an ecollar on an off leash dog in an open space is the responsible thing to do. Usually most places are leashed dogs only or dogs under control. The e-collar is simply an invisible leash that allows freedom. Despite how well a person may think their training is, dogs are not robots. They CAN make mistakes. The e-collar is merely a communication tool that, when introduced and used properly, communicates to the dog a language they understand while keeping the dog happy to work and eager to please. If people think we're out here "lighting up" dogs that wear ecollars, then its clear to me they are not educated on the use of an ecollar enough and should perhaps refrain from commenting on such in the future.

I also see at least one dog without an ecollar so clearly, not all dogs I haven't heard anyone use the term "shock collar" in ages since... e-collars are much more advanced ever since the 90s compared to the shock collars of the 60s, when they were truly that. The only ones I hear use this term are again, people that don't fully understand them or how to use one. Anti-ecollar folk.

Also very well written.

 

[Katyusharocket]

I love e-collars. I make no bones about using them, but my guide with them has always been: ask (that's my voice, letting them know what it is I want them to do), tell (if they haven't responded to my voice, I reinforce my ask with a beep, and that works 90 percent of the time). Demand, (for whatever distractions are presenting themselves, if they haven't responded by now, the vibrate works 100 percent). And then there is NO YOU EFFING ARE NOT DOING THAT PARTICULAR THING (that is reserved for times when the safety of my dogs or another dog or person is at risk. Thats the static). I.E., one is chasing a squirrel or feral cat, and might run into traffic. Or the time that a lady was marking utility lines for an upcoming dig in our alley and she surprised Katyusha by being so close to my car. 30 seconds later I was apologizing and Katyusha was leaning into her while getting ample pets, and the utility marker also was apologizing for being so scared.

 

[MyBuddy]

What a beautiful pack! That had to be so much fun.

And great information on e-collars. Annie would not be out there without an e-collar! Not because she misbehaves. Not because she's not trained. But because you're out on a hike and anything can happen. Especially encountering a wild animal. I can't protect her if her prey drive kicks in and she's chasing a wild animal.

I love e-collars. I make no bones about using them, but my guide with them has always been: ask (that's my voice, letting them know what it is I want them to do), tell (if they haven't responded to my voice, I reinforce my ask with a beep, and that works 90 percent of the time). Demand, (for whatever distractions are presenting themselves, if they haven't responded by now, the vibrate works 100 percent). And then there is NO YOU EFFING ARE NOT DOING THAT PARTICULAR THING (that is reserved for times when the safety of my dogs or another dog or person is at risk. Thats the static). I.E., one is chasing a squirrel or feral cat, and might run into traffic. Or the time that a lady was marking utility lines for an upcoming dig in our alley and she surprised Katyusha by being so close to my car. 30 seconds later I was apologizing and Katyusha was leaning into her while getting ample pets, and the utility marker also was apologizing for being so scared.

This .

I've on purpose used the e-collar as a very light touch, and specifically limited to
Vibrate
"Hey, I'm tapping you on the shoulder- look and listen...at me"
And
Zap at "Hand of God" source for verboten things - eating a dead rat, coyote poop, wood chips, etc that would be very bad...
I dont want her to decide "I only have to pass this by if Grampa says "leave it".....
So close observation and timing is critical..,doesnt take long.

And This

The e-collar is just a reminder at a distance. Being able to reach out and touch when you can't reach. Very seldom have I had to do more than a vibrate. And voice is always first.

 

[Ravenbird]

Being able to reach out and touch when you can't reach.

We always used that phase about the e-collar - "made to reach out and touch someone" after that ad, I think it was Bell Telephone? But only us old folks remember that advertisement on TV, it had to have been in the 70's or 80's. LOL

 

[Rits]

If you're talking about the pack I was with, you might be right, She had 5 and I had one, I didn't ask, or even look, just assumed. There's no way I could do what she does with so many dogs at once. Doesn't matter if they are new to her & the pack or how bad they were when the came to her, I feel totally safe taking Asha with them.

Yup. Don't worry, I'm not here to judge your pack and I know you know that! I only mentioned it because the above criticism said, "Because they all have shock collars on is why they are behaving." and that isn't true either! Theres one right there plain as day without one and looks to be behaving!

 

[Two Dobes]

Yes, it was Bell telephone!