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Eris - Adulthood anxiety & eCollar issues

@Liminalist

The difference of two Dobermans:
A good hold stay…Freyja is always a good one who listens. Ragnar had 10x more training and he still would have been jumping around squealing like a silver back ape.
In the second picture Rag is holding but only because he knows the consequences of the ECollar. Across the road is a Canadian Goose- he hated geese. An ECollar is a great tool if used the correct way.

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I will definitely let you know exactly what they find out.

Right now they are suspecting she has a very high prey drive. I think someone here mentioned that might be the case. It might have been Ddski5 (sorry I don't know how to tag here). Combined with anxiety.

This is the whole line/breeding part I'll try to explain without sounding like Game of Thrones lol

Her trainers are the owners of her grandparents on her dad's side, and also have their own breeding program (we'll call them T&B). Originally, Eris' dam was going to be part of T&B's program, but they didnt end up proceeding with breeding her due to her poor temperament. The female was a neurotic reactive mess. That female was owned by someone else we'll call "D". D ended up eventually getting a male from T&B. That male went on to be bred with the neurotic female, and that's where we got Eris. Eris also had a sibling with a severe deformity too, so yknow, idk man. T&B maintains their biggest regret was ever selling one of their dogs to D b/c now their lines are linked, and they don't like D's program at all.

What they said on the phone was that it's sounding a LOT like Eris is maturing into being like her mom. The difference is, they breed their dogs for working drive and sporting. So they're wondering if she got a wombo combo of extremely intense drive from the sire and the neuroticism from the dam, which is going to make her atypically difficult, definitely not a good first-time doberman experience.

Her "aggression" may be coming from her insecurity and nerves, but her obsessiveness over chasing the cats, children, little dogs, etc sounds like high prey drive. Then us punishing her for engaging in this drive is confusing and frustrating her, so managing it is really hard. She may need to be put into some kind of activity that gives her an outlet, such as a sport or a full time job, and if that's the case, they will try to help find that outlet. They also confirmed they saw her be sensitive towards the ecollar, so when I explained the eCollar situation, they said that sometimes that does happen and it sucks, but understandable. She may have associated the eCollar sensation with other dogs, and it's led to the aggression (but its just our running theory).

Ultimately she might do better in a different environment, but they said the goal first is to get her good to come back home with me. IFFFF that's not a good option, they will help us figure out alternatives. We just don't know yet.

We all know she's a good dog, but they are in the boat that this is just her personality, and there's not going to be any changing her. What we might be able to do is manage it and/or find her a situation that lends better to her personality, but we cant change what kind of Dobie she is.

So that's all I got for now. All we can do is see how she is when I get her back. She will go to them on May 12th and I should get her back sometime after the 24th.

Thank you again for all the support, amazing questions, ideas, theories, stories, etc. It's why I came here in the first place.
Good job sticking with this, trying your best.

If you haven't heard of Mike Ellis, check out his ecollar training, and explanations of how a dog can pickup "suspicious beliefs" or associations other than intended.
 
Across the road is a Canadian Goose- he hated geese.

You got to cook them properly for the dogs to learn to love them... :)

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Except the feet... Those you can just clip and dispense! :)


Me personally, I can't stand duck meat. Even the smell of it cooking turns my tummy. Teriyaki sauce helps bigly with the smell... :)
 
The difference of two Dobermans:

Every single time I have raised a pair of Dobermans it has been more or less just like you described right there.

Finding a pair that behaves exactly the same is something I have never seen personally.

Does not matter if they are trained exactly the same or have the same parents or... They will never behave exactly the same and will always have unique and individual personalities. :)
 
Yeah... to be fair the only thing I specifically asked the trainers for was bomb-proof recall, and I thought the eCollar was supposed to be for that. When I got her back from the trainers though, I learned that the eCollar was used to correct everything. Not what I expected, and also I wasn't given a long term plan for how to use it. Like do we wean off of it? Do I stop using it or is this forever? What purpose does the eCollar serve a year from now, 3 years from now, etc? Next time I get a dog trained, I'll have a lot more questions for them, especially on the tools they use.
It is a shame.

You have a likely completely normal Doberman (falls well within the 'normal' range of behavior for the breed) and you are wanting to medicate it into a different type of dog...

You could likely train her more and desesitize her to almost anything but it seems as if you are choosing to go the medication route instead. :(

I can't believe yoy said "You have a likely completely normal Doberman (falls well within the 'normal' range of behavior for the breed". Dobermans have same general charateristic, but like people Dobermans can have different peronalities, The good, bad and ugly. allmos all can be trained to be "Good Dogs" .
 
I can't believe yoy said "You have a likely completely normal Doberman (falls well within the 'normal' range of behavior for the breed". Dobermans have same general charateristic, but like people Dobermans can have different peronalities, The good, bad and ugly. allmos all can be trained to be "Good Dogs" .

If a person wants a dog that behaves like a Labrador - They should not buy a Doberman and try to train it to act like a Labrador.

Better to just buy the Labrador to begin with.. :)
 
Dobermans have same general charateristic, but like people Dobermans can have different peronalities, The good, bad and ugly. allmos all can be trained to be "Good Dogs" .
This is a true statement.

If a person wants a dog that behaves like a Labrador - They should not buy a Doberman and try to train it to act like a Labrador.

Better to just buy the Labrador to begin with..
This is also a very true statement…..

My big concern is when folks try to train a hard Doberman into a softer more forgiving Doberman. You just about have to break their will and character to do this. A lion can’t help itself, it truly has to be a lion.
 
Just an update!

It's been about a month since we stopped using the eCollar for anything (put it away) and started incorporating new home/training habits., and I've seen a marked improvement on all fronts.

The main improvement is she seems far far more relaxed in the house, not like she's constantly on high alert. I've even started letting her and Byron be around each other and letting them play as long as it remains relaxed play and not rowdy/biting/chasing play, because she sometimes gets too into it and plays too rough (which might be where some of the conflict started between them). There has not been another fighting incident since we stopped using the eCollar, but we are still monitoring them whenever they are together. This is still a really good sign though.

I've also started using Open Farm Calming Supplement with her breakfast or during the day if she seems stressed (I like this one b/c it has Valerian, Chamomile, L-theanine, and L-Tryptophan in it) as well as Earth Animal's Emotional Balance tincture at dinner (Valerian, Skullcap, Chamomile, Passionflower). I'm not sure if I believe in all the woo-woo of it, but I've had luck with Valerian and Chamomile in the past, so I figured it was worth trying. I have no idea if it is, but she seems so much more relaxed and didn't spook at the recent storms either. (disclaimer - always read the instructions on stuff like this)

We had taken away all the toys in the house when we were trying to determine if the toys were a factor in her attacking Byron, but quickly it was clear she has no resource guarding behavior at all, so we gave all the toys back which made her very happy. She loves toys we can stuff with snacks or puzzles and will dig her favorites out of the bin and bring it to us when she wants it (So freaking cute).

I also have been giving her the option to sleep in her crate or sleep with me or sleep in the bedroom. Dogs in the past I've lived with who had anxiety saw huge improvements in their mood for the whole day whenever I gave them agency to choose where they want to sleep at night. Lately, she's wanted to sleep with me (still chooses her crate sometimes), and I've noticed in the morning her crazy house zoomie insanity is far less. She just wants to hangout and cuddle mostly.

I also went back to being diligent about incorporating fresh pre-cooked food and small amounts of raw supplements into her diet. Sometimes diet alone can impact behavior, and I'd been being a bit lazy about preparing her meals lately.

The last change is her training regimen. I'm taking her out on a 15' lead so she still feels Off Leash even though I'm not going to do that right now with her acting this way. I'm basically just doing the thing we normally do, but instead of going somewhere completely foreign, I'm working with her in the yard and working my way up and down the neighborhood street until we find the limit to where I start to see the anxiety building. Basically starting somewhere she's comfortable and expanding the radius until hopefully, we can do the whole street, then add another street, etc etc. Just taking it slow. I'm also using treats, too, but sparingly for when I really want to capture the perfect behavior.

That's my update! Honestly, I can't believe the change I've seen in a month. We are far from being in a good place, but the overall energy in the house seems lower, less tense, and she's been incredibly cuddly (she was NEVER cuddly before). It's like a whole new dog honestly.

I hope sharing these updates might help someone else dealing with the same setbacks. =)

CBD oils are good for calming besides other things. But not all are created equal. Some ones I have used are Pet Releaf and Charlotte's Web
 
This is a true statement.


This is also a very true statement…..

My big concern is when folks try to train a hard Doberman into a softer more forgiving Doberman. You just about have to break their will and character to do this. A lion can’t help itself, it truly has to be a lion.
You know…I say this but:

A new Doberman owner does not really find this out until prob 9 months to a year. So before that, they have suffered through the DoberShark phase, posted ears, tolerated the DoberTeen phase and spent soo much energy, time and attention in doing the right thing that no wonder they do not want give in. And, don’t forget the bond that’s been established…working that hard on something you’ve dreamed of, establishing that relationship- that was me with my first one.
 
- that was me with my first one.
I learned everything I needed to know about the breed way before I ever decided to bring one into my home.

A metric crap ton of hours spent doing my homework about the breed... :)

I watched the Doberman Gang movie at least 4 times, EVERY single episode of Magnum PI with 'the lads' in it AND all of the Resident Evil Dober stuff including the behind the scenes stuff with the lady that owns / trains those dogs! :)



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I knew full well what sort of behavior to expect from my new 'buddies'. :)
 
"Metric crap ton" 🤣

I've had the breed for close to two decades and I will never know everything, which is why we're here to keep learning. :)

I kindof figured that when I cited TV show garbage as my source of info that most people would know I was making a joke there...

( I actually sorta believed (for a good while) that one scene from Magnum PI where Magnum sent the dogs packing with a fire extinguisher.)

Wasted a lot of money sticking them things everywhere thinking that if a day ever came and the girls decided to turn on me and try to chew my face off that I could just grab the fire extinguisher that is 'hopefully' nearby and fend them off with ease. :(

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TV stuff not real... :)
 
  • Pure Genius!
Reactions: BG1
HEY ALL! Long time no update.

It's been a tough year. BUT I finally had a chance to sit down and talk about it.

So what happened to Eris?

Eris ended up getting assessed by several trainers and we were kind of looking down the barrel of possible euthanasia. However, I was able to get in touch with the folks who did her initial training. To call them "lifesavers" is understating it, because their intervention is why she's alive and well.

Without getting into a year's worth of nitty gritty, she went to them Spring of 2025 and they kept her for months running her through myriad behavioral tests. At first they couldn't recreate what I was seeing, but about a month later, it started to show.

What ended up setting it off was when they transitioned her from living in their boarding runs to living in their house. The presence of the cats in the house was causing her to lose her mind. She was on edge, shaking, trying to chase them, just unable to sleep or settle. They tried all sorts of combinations -- with dogs, without dogs, with cats, without cats, in the house, in the office. The common denominator was that if she was around small "prey-like" animals, she went into a completely manic state of mind. They said, "No wonder she was getting worse! She was basically in a heightened state of arousal 24/7 in your house with 2 cats and 1 little dog, and that's enough to drive anyone insane." If you took her away from the little animals that run around, she was fine.

But that wasn't all. We still have the 'biting' issue, where she lunges at people/kids/joggers/other dogs, etc when they run by or move quickly. They do a lot of bitework at their facility, so they suited up and put her through a bunch of situations to see if they could trigger certain responses. What they wanted to determine is if she would resort to biting, because that in itself was our biggest concern, as we have little kids that run around by our house and if she got outside, she would go after them -- that was a big nope for me and why I didn't feel safe keeping her.

What they determined was that, yes, unfortunately, even in normal scenarios like at the park and playing ball, if someone runs by her, she will run up and "bite" them. Now, it's not hard AT ALL, its just a tiny little nip, just a "TAG I got you!" but it's 60 lbs at 15-20 mph of force smashing into her target and putting teeth on them, whether it's a kid, another dog, etc. Which by law, is still a 'bite' and I could be held liable.

They said it's clear there is absolutely NO aggression in her. She's as sweet as can be, unfortunately what it all boiled down to is essentially dog OCD. If she is around anything that arouses her (which is anything that moves quickly or is small), she fixates on it. She also seems to have some problems communicating with other dogs. Despite being raised around 2 very social dogs, she never picked up on social cues. She doesnt react to them in ways the other dogs want, she pushes boundaries, she doesnt give cues to them, it's bizarre. This has resulted in a number of fights where she nips at other dogs in the back of the neck or pushes/shoves them to the point the other dogs got sick of it. They would correct her and give her body language she just wasn't getting, and her constant bugging would eventually result in the other dog(s) correcting her harshly, and then she would in turn defend herself and it escalates into a fight. I saw the same issue at my house with my dogs, where my dogs would give correct after correction, and she never once understood it.

They said they 100% do not think she needs to be euthanized, but she's a tough case that is only going to succeed if she's placed in a home that understands she is essentially a special needs dog. We sort of jokingly said she's basically a dog with OCD and autism, but honestly that's a pretty apt description.

They said she's wicked smart and exceptionally well trained. They said typically when a dog comes back to them a year after training, it's the owners who have slacked, but they said she undoubtedly came back even better than she left. We put the work in, and aside from her mental condition, she's a "bomb proof" obedient dog. The problem is, all these little things trigger her brain into a manic disaster. What was causing the shaking, the erratic behavior, and the outbursts of "aggression" is that she KNEW not to act on her drive and was fighting it. She knew she wasn't supposed to chase the cats or put Ellie in her mouth, but she was fighting demons in her head 24/7. As soon as you removed her from the stimuli that were driving her mad, she became a perfect dog. She was so smart, she wanted to do right, but her brain wasn't playing fair.

So what did we do? Well, the trainers said they'd look for a home, but if nothing came up, they'd be happy to keep her. They knew how to handle her issues and make her happy and keep her safe, but they also really wanted her to have a family of her own, because she's a big needy baby who deserves her own family.

Well as luck would have it, months later they found someone! She's now living her best life on a farm with huge property, horses, no kids, and even a cattledog buddy she can roughhouse with. She doesn't have to go to parks or do dog sports or anything that could expose her to triggers b/c she has so much space and activity on the farm. She's spoilt rotten and very happy, and there have been no recurrences of issues.

Ultimately, we learned that she was just not a good combination of breeding. When the trainers found out who her breeder was they kinda cringed because of the history they knew, but that also contributed to why they were so eager to help.

So that's how things ended. She's a good girl, she just was never going to succeed in my household. She needed to be removed from the stimuli that were triggering her in order for her to have a hope at rehabilitating the bad behaviors. As soon as she was in an environment that suited her better, she started to heal. It's comforting to know we did nothing wrong and in fact did absolutely everything humanly possible to make it work, but it just wasn't going to. Until Eris, I had never met a dog in which the "must be only dog" "no cats" "no small dogs" "no children" kind of thing turned out to be true, but I guess every now and then, there is actually a case in which it is. They said she'd likely never be a normal dog, but in the right situation, she can find a happy normalcy that works for her. They've worked with thousands of dogs and hundreds of Doberman, and were very clear this this is *not* typical of the breed, and *not* anything I did wrong.

Eris has been out of my life for about 9-ish months now, and for the longest time, I couldn't even bear to look at a photo without crying. I thought I could never have another Doberman, because it just hurt like hell. But in the last month or so, something in my mindset started to change. The trauma of what happened still lingers in my mind, but everyone assures me that Eris was an outlier. Her behavior was not normal for any well-bred Doberman, so I believe them.

I decided to log back in today because last night I dreamt about her again. But instead of it being a nightmare or a tragedy as it has been for the last year or more, I dreamt I was holding her in my arms as a puppy again, happy and peaceful. I know it was her because of how she looked at me. When I woke up, I thought she was still there. It felt so real. So, I just wanted to get on here and give some closure to this story. I think in some way, I was avoiding it, because it was the last bit of her I hadn't let go of, but the dream felt like a message that said it's okay.

I miss her so much, but I'm so glad she's alive and bringing joy to someone else. So yeah I guess... that's kinda it! That's the end of my chapter in her life. I hope she goes on to many more.

Thanks to everyone who was there for me, supported me, and followed along. And here's hoping to a bright future. Maybe there will be another dobie in my future if I'm lucky. <3
 
I have been thinking of Eris lately, like in the last 2 weeks, wondering how you guys were doing. I'm sorry you had to let her go, and I know that hurts so badly, but I am glad you can think of her life now and know she is in a place that isn't constantly triggering her brain. I applaud all the effort you put into her, and I do hope you will find another Doberman in your future, when you are ready.
 
I'm SO glad to hear she is THRIVING! Of course my heart hurts for you and your family but you guys did the absolute best thing for her and, I would say, went above and beyond to make sure she got what she needed. Very impressed with the trainers you worked with, as well. Their determination to figure out her triggers sounds very intentional by your retelling. They weren't in a hurry to "fix" and offload her to make room for the next dog but to take the time to understand her. Thank you for the update ❤️ ❤️ ❤️
 
Wow, great story! For what its worth, from a complete stranger; you did a fantastic job and made the ultimate best choice for Eris.

When your situation permits, you will again be a great dog owner.

Do you mind sharing the breeder name? You said "the trainer cringed as recognizing a history ..."

If you'd rather not say on public forum that's completely fine.

Feel free to send a private message using the envelope symbol on top task bar.

Why do I ask?
I'm slowly compiling research on next dog, and if you were to read this archive and another dobe forum that also goes back 20 years, you'll note that as in most purebreeds, there are a couple breeders with known behavioral potential problems in the lines- Kimbertal, for example with SRS.

Long timers in the fancy can perhaps mention others, and its not a targeted attack to discuss it, but something to know as a buyer to take into consideration if you want to do your homework later, by pedigree.

Thanks again for sharing.
 
I know how hard it had to be for you but it sounds like the best possible scenario after all is said and done.

Thanks for updating us and I hope you pop in from time to time.
 
Why do I ask?
I'm slowly compiling research on next dog, and if you were to read this archive and another dobe forum that also goes back 20 years, you'll note that as in most purebreeds, there are a couple breeders with known behavioral potential problems in the lines- Kimbertal, for example with SRS.

Long timers in the fancy can perhaps mention others, and its not a targeted attack to discuss it, but something to know as a buyer to take into consideration if you want to do your homework later, by pedigree.

Thanks again for sharing.

Thank you for the support and kind words.

I am happy to discuss privately. I think when I explain the reason why I don't want to put any names out there for the parties in this story, you'll understand. Sometimes people get connected to other people with bad reputations and get dragged down with it, and that's not what I want. The trainers saved her life and have been incredible people to work with, but the connection they had in the past with Eris' breeder is both the reason why they knew of them and also why I don't want to unintentionally create a possible link with which an unknowing person could draw the wrong conclusions.

The GOOD news is that breeder is retired and no longer breeding doberman. So small blessings in that regard! But I'll send you a private message to explain more.
 

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