If I was a breeder...looking for working lines

[Nordika]

And had a good quality bitch, I'd reach back 30 years for this boys semen. Linebred on Bingo von Ellendonk.

Von Roth Dobermanns: Bronco von der Doberwache

Von Roth Dobermanns: Breeding exclusively from European bloodlines and selectively choosing for sound nerves, working instinct, health and conformation

www.vonroth.com.au

This dog Is listed on their website under stored semen. I appreciate the effort of banking semen, building the future by preserving the past. So if you're a breeder, or know one that's still interested in preservation breeding working qualities, pass this information along. I came upon this breeders website accidentally, while looking up information on a dog. I saved this bookmark last year, just thought I should share it.

 

[Ravenbird]

My 1991 Dobermans sire line went to Bingo v Ellendonk, but appears only once in her pedigree if I remember right. She also had Guy's Hilo v Norden Stamm. I'm a fan o these German working lines.

Bronco von der Doberwatche would definitely help what we have today with what appears to be healthy long lived dogs. Several of the working line breeders today go back to these dogs. Since these lines have since fallen off, I wouldn't be opposed to using his semen for an instant heavy dose of Bingo. LOL, I'd be tempted to say inbred rather than line bred, but the joke is, if it works call it line bred, if it doesn't call it inbred. With Bronco, it obviously worked and I'm extremely impressed with multiple dogs in the pedigree living well past 10.

Here's Broncos pedigree - if I was a buyer and found a litter by him I'd be on it.



The reason I noted heavy line/inbreeding is that Bingo appearing 4 times in 4 generations is plenty, but the fact that 3 of the 4 times it is actually 3 daughters, all from the same litter, so saturates the dam of that litter as well. She lived to be an impressive 13 years+ years and DobeQuest has her listed as 14y 6 months! Would be interesting to know which is accurate... I would not be opposed to having these long lived lines multiple times in a pedigree in today's world.

What I see in today's pedigrees is heavy line breeding like this with dogs that only lived to be 7 - 9 years old. I don't believe you can expect puppies to live past 10 if 3/4 of their pedigree didn't.

My 1991 Dobe was the most mentally stable dog I ever knew, and she was about 3/4 German working lines. Nothing bothered her, she was not over reactive about anything, but stayed watchful, she was not hyper or busy or pushy to do anything, she didn't whine, rarely barked, didn't obsess on anything, didn't suck blankets or destroy toys and got along with cats, children, strangers and only acted vigilant when something was truly not right. I did very little training, just 2 basic obedience classes between 6 - 10 months. She lived to 11. These old German lines were so solid, non-nonsense dogs.

 

[Nordika]

My 1991 Dobermans sire line went to Bingo v Ellendonk, but appears only once in her pedigree if I remember right. She also had Guy's Hilo v Norden Stamm. I'm a fan o these German working lines.

Bronco von der Doberwatche would definitely help what we have today with what appears to be healthy long lived dogs. Several of the working line breeders today go back to these dogs. Since these lines have since fallen off, I wouldn't be opposed to using his semen for an instant heavy dose of Bingo. LOL, I'd be tempted to say inbred rather than line bred, but the joke is, if it works call it line bred, if it doesn't call it inbred. With Bronco, it obviously worked and I'm extremely impressed with multiple dogs in the pedigree living well past 10.

Here's Broncos pedigree - if I was a buyer and found a litter by him I'd be on it.

View attachment 162757

The reason I noted heavy line/inbreeding is that Bingo appearing 4 times in 4 generations is plenty, but the fact that 3 of the 4 times it is actually 3 daughters, all from the same litter, so saturates the dam of that litter as well. She lived to be an impressive 13 years+ years and DobeQuest has her listed as 14y 6 months! Would be interesting to know which is accurate... I would not be opposed to having these long lived lines multiple times in a pedigree in today's world.

What I see in today's pedigrees is heavy line breeding like this with dogs that only lived to be 7 - 9 years old. I don't believe you can expect puppies to live past 10 if 3/4 of their pedigree didn't.

My 1991 Dobe was the most mentally stable dog I ever knew, and she was about 3/4 German working lines. Nothing bothered her, she was not over reactive about anything, but stayed watchful, she was not hyper or busy or pushy to do anything, she didn't whine, rarely barked, didn't obsess on anything, didn't suck blankets or destroy toys and got along with cats, children, strangers and only acted vigilant when something was truly not right. I did very little training, just 2 basic obedience classes between 6 - 10 months. She lived to 11. These old German lines were so solid, non-nonsense dogs.

Strictly speaking, inbreeding is very closely related, as in father to daughter, mother to son, or full siblings. Linebreeding, used to concentrate the genetics of a specific superior ancestor, purposeful, and typically involves mating more distantly related animals (such as cousins, half-siblings, or uncle/niece) to lock in desirable traits with less risk of inbreeding depression. So there are what appears to be 3 full siblings, 2 male - Asko and Amor, and one female- Anouk. Then a half sibling female Brista. None of the siblings are bred to each other, rather their offspring, so cousins. Yes, Cona v. Niederkassel, well 14.5 would be amazing, but 13 is too! Either way, there is longevity there and with a SchH 3. She's not the only daughter of Satan v Ellendonk either, Bienne v Niederkassel is also. So we have linebreeding also on Satan v Ellendonk. Satan was SchH 2 , FH (Fährtenhund), certifying him as a proficient tracking dog independent of the Schutzhund, and Angekört 1A (ZVA): Satan passed the Körung (breeding suitability test) with the rating 1A. This is the highest class, often designated "ZVA" (Zuchttauglich mit Auslese), meaning he was approved for breeding with select mates. During the Körung, he received the highest ratings for hardness (Härte) and working drives (Arbeitsfreude). This specific qualitative result was a hallmark of the "S" litter, distinguishing them as top-tier working prospects. All said, imho, this would be a desirable injection of working qualities, stable temperament and longevity.

Your description of your past Doberman is what I remember, too often when you separate working lines and conformation lines you lose focus of the breed as the whole package.

 

[Ravenbird]

So there are what appears to be 3 full siblings, 2 male - Asko and Amor, and one female- Anouk.

My bad, I said 3 daughters but it is 2 sons and 1 daughter from Bingo/Cona. And I'm not a breeder, so may be misusing line breeding/inbreeding, and to be clear I'm not against it, but just saying in todays Dobermans, needing more diversity than ever, I wouldn't like to see this much. With these long-lived dogs in this pedigree, it would be exciting to see this sire bred to bitch. A few American show lines show good longevity, but most are sprinkled with too many of the same dogs who died young. Same with some working lines. It's definitely a breath of fresh air to see dogs over 10 that were over the top working dogs.

Earlier this year High Marks Dobermans bred to a '95 frozen sire. 3 puppies, 1 home in the U.S. one to Europe and one to Mexico, all pointing at French Ring sports. Here's the pedigree:

 

[Ravenbird]

Your description of your past Doberman is what I remember, too often when you separate working lines and conformation lines you lose focus of the breed as the whole package.

So true!

What I'm seeing is that back in the day they would work the dogs and then the titled working dogs would be judged on conformation and be rated there as well. Then we got this split in the U.S and in Europe with strictly show dogs and they lost the working drive/temperament. For the most part the show breeders here don't like the looks of working Dobes and working Dobe people don't want to lose their drive by breeding to a show dog, so these two genetic pools are bottle-necking yet again by not mixing with each other. What I'm leading to is the fact that both of these frozen boys above look perfectly in standard for showing and would have the temperament to do any active sports or nose work.

 

[Nordika]

My bad, I said 3 daughters but it is 2 sons and 1 daughter from Bingo/Cona. And I'm not a breeder, so may be misusing line breeding/inbreeding, and to be clear I'm not against it, but just saying in todays Dobermans, needing more diversity than ever, I wouldn't like to see this much. With these long-lived dogs in this pedigree, it would be exciting to see this sire bred to bitch. A few American show lines show good longevity, but most are sprinkled with too many of the same dogs who died young. Same with some working lines. It's definitely a breath of fresh air to see dogs over 10 that were over the top working dogs.

Earlier this year High Marks Dobermans bred to a '95 frozen sire. 3 puppies, 1 home in the U.S. one to Europe and one to Mexico, all pointing at French Ring sports. Here's the pedigree:

View attachment 162760

Without inbreeding, breeds of dogs wouldn't exist, and without linebreeding, type and standards could not be set. The big catch-22, as more diversity does not equal more quality, quite the opposite actually. That is why you will see a lot of inbreeding/linebreeding in most kennel lines. Unless you know what genes to select away from, removing something like DCM is unlikely to happen. DCM appears to be polygenic, involving many genes and goes back to early foundation of the breed. The DNA tests so called 'markers' DCM1 and DCM2 have been proven to only be somewhat relevant and only in American Dobermans, they are completely irrelevant in European Dobermans. I don't believe that any breeder, even BYBs, want to breed unhealthy dogs that die young, the fact is, unfortunately, that you cannot breed for diversity, health and longevity and maintain a breed. Just like in humans, siblings are quite diverse in their genetics. You can have a litter where a few live beyond 12 years, and a few die young. There just isn't an easy fix, the best that you can do is try to weight your breeding line towards longevity.

There is currently too much emphasis on sires and not enough emphasis on maternal lines. Kennel von der Weyermühle, operated by Norbert and Monika Schmitz in the Nordrhein region of Germany, is renowned for producing numerous successful working Dobermans in sport and police work. The kennel's legacy was established by leasing Cona v. Niederkassel SchH 3, who served as the foundation female for their breeding program. Her genetic impact is defined by her union with the legendary sire Bingo v. Ellendonk, which established a prepotent bloodline known for superior working drives, hardness, and temperament.

Beyond her direct offspring, Cona’s influence multiplied through her daughters and granddaughters:

Alfa v.d. Weyermühle: Produced the "B", "E", "F", "H", and "J" litters, passing on Cona’s longevity and working aptitude.
Anouk v.d. Weyermühle: A top competitor who produced the "C", "D", and "G" litters, including the influential Gero v.d. Weyermühle.
Gina v.d. Weyermühle: Granddaughter of Cona, she produced Kleo v.d. Weyermühle (IDC-Weltmeister) and Ilo v.d. Weyermühle, cementing the line’s dominance in sport.
If you follow this motherline down you may find a good bitch, (follow the girls, that's what I would do) providing that her line through her daughters hasn't been broken. That would require researching pedigrees/offspring, however, Cona’s genetics are ubiquitous in modern working Doberman pedigrees. She is one of the "three sisters" (along with Bessy and Biene v. Niederkassel) whose DNA forms the bedrock of the Ellendonk working line.

 

[Nordika]

I do want to add something here about DNA tests. It's not cut and dry. Testing clear for 270+ diseases doesn't make your dog healthy or immune. While having certain markers that may be associated to your breed may indicate risk factors, or in the case of recessives can inform you about status, clear, carrier, affected, it is by no means a prediction of future health. Ex: had a dog test N/N clear for DM, that dog later developing DM at 10 years of age. DNA testing is useful, but it's just a tool, not a magic crystal ball.

 

[JanS]

DNA testing is useful, but it's just a tool, not a magic crystal ball.

That is so true and too many people think that is all of the health testing they need. It's going to tell you what markers they may or may not carry but it's definitely not a substitute for actual health testing.

 

[BGpa]

Without inbreeding, breeds of dogs wouldn't exist, and without linebreeding, type and standards could not be set. The big catch-22, as more diversity does not equal more quality, quite the opposite actually. That is why you will see a lot of inbreeding/linebreeding in most kennel lines. Unless you know what genes to select away from, removing something like DCM is unlikely to happen. DCM appears to be polygenic, involving many genes and goes back to early foundation of the breed. The DNA tests so called 'markers' DCM1 and DCM2 have been proven to only be somewhat relevant and only in American Dobermans, they are completely irrelevant in European Dobermans. I don't believe that any breeder, even BYBs, want to breed unhealthy dogs that die young, the fact is, unfortunately, that you cannot breed for diversity, health and longevity and maintain a breed. Just like in humans, siblings are quite diverse in their genetics. You can have a litter where a few live beyond 12 years, and a few die young. There just isn't an easy fix, the best that you can do is try to weight your breeding line towards longevity.

There is currently too much emphasis on sires and not enough emphasis on maternal lines. Kennel von der Weyermühle, operated by Norbert and Monika Schmitz in the Nordrhein region of Germany, is renowned for producing numerous successful working Dobermans in sport and police work. The kennel's legacy was established by leasing Cona v. Niederkassel SchH 3, who served as the foundation female for their breeding program. Her genetic impact is defined by her union with the legendary sire Bingo v. Ellendonk, which established a prepotent bloodline known for superior working drives, hardness, and temperament.

Beyond her direct offspring, Cona’s influence multiplied through her daughters and granddaughters:

Alfa v.d. Weyermühle: Produced the "B", "E", "F", "H", and "J" litters, passing on Cona’s longevity and working aptitude.
Anouk v.d. Weyermühle: A top competitor who produced the "C", "D", and "G" litters, including the influential Gero v.d. Weyermühle.
Gina v.d. Weyermühle: Granddaughter of Cona, she produced Kleo v.d. Weyermühle (IDC-Weltmeister) and Ilo v.d. Weyermühle, cementing the line’s dominance in sport.
If you follow this motherline down you may find a good bitch, (follow the girls, that's what I would do) providing that her line through her daughters hasn't been broken. That would require researching pedigrees/offspring, however, Cona’s genetics are ubiquitous in modern working Doberman pedigrees. She is one of the "three sisters" (along with Bessy and Biene v. Niederkassel) whose DNA forms the bedrock of the Ellendonk working line.

Just a couple question as a noob trying to learn the pedigree reading process: to you here @Nordika or @Ravenbird or @Rits or @JanS or anyone who might opine:

Is there something about maternal lines in general that one might look for? Somewhere I recall reading that 'behavioral traits seem to follow the mother' - is that true or did I get that wrong?
And
If its in this patricular females lines, what and why specifically and how proven, what facts should a student of pedigree be looking for on various databases?
And
How does one find "the frozen boys" who carry those long ago lines.

Seems to me the best samples would be sold, already, correct? How long does sperm last? How do you find those breeders holding it, from long ago dogs?

PS: @Nordika for the insight into German dogs, especially the working side.
BTW there is an Italian breeder of working dogs who posted awhile back on German breed clubs
@dobschroeder are you still here?

 

[Nordika]

Is there something about maternal lines in general that one might look for?

You can likely find much information by searching Stamm lines. Stamm line (German for "stem" or "trunk line") refers specifically to the direct female lineage or dam line in animal breeding. It traces an unbroken chain of mothers back to a foundational female ancestor. X-linked traits.

 

[BGpa]

You can likely find much information by searching Stamm lines. Stamm line (German for "stem" or "trunk line") refers specifically to the direct female lineage or dam line in animal breeding. It traces an unbroken chain of mothers back to a foundational female ancestor. X-linked traits.

Thank you!

 

[BGpa]

I have used GrokAI as a search engine in past, and restarted just recently noting its "most balanced" asto bias, and most useful in techical research. Then I read the cited studies and think for myself.

Here is what it turned up: in reply to my question:
Explain the concept of "stamm lines" in dog breeding and in particular how behavioral traits follow maternal lines or paternal lines most reliably

(Excerpt:
"How behavioral traits tend to follow the lines

Behavioral traits in dogs (temperament, trainability/biddability, fearfulness, aggressiveness, drive, sociability, etc.) show moderate heritability—typically in the 0.2–0.5 range depending on the trait and population, with some (e.g., trainability or boldness-related measures) higher. Breed ancestry explains only a modest fraction of individual variation (around 9 % in large genomic studies), and most loci involved are regulatory rather than simple Mendelian.


Maternal lines are generally regarded as more reliable for behavioral consistency, for both genetic and non-genetic reasons:


• Maternal (environmental and epigenetic) effects are substantial. The dam provides the prenatal uterine environment, milk, early care, and social modeling during the critical socialization window. Studies of German Shepherds and other working dogs show that levels of maternal care in the first weeks of life measurably influence adult offspring scores for social engagement, physical engagement, and aggression (or related temperament dimensions) at 15–18 months or later. Mothers that provide more intense or specific styles of care produce systematically different adult temperaments.


• mtDNA and X-chromosome effects, while limited in scope, can influence energy metabolism, stress response, and certain neurological functions.


• Many experienced breeders therefore treat a multi-generation “mother line” or dam family as an anchor for stable nervous system, learning style, trainability, and overall temperament. Outcrossing is often followed by “bookending” back to the maternal line to restore consistency.


Paternal lines transmit Y-chromosome material and, more importantly, half the autosomal genome. A prepotent sire can rapidly spread desirable (or undesirable) alleles across many litters and kennels. However, the sire has no direct postnatal behavioral influence comparable to maternal care, and Y-linked genes are few. Behavioral transmission through sire lines therefore relies more purely on the additive genetic contribution and on selection of sons that themselves prove good producers. Popular-sire effects can also create bottlenecks and reduce overall diversity."

Here is the study that is cited

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/290478598_Levels_of_maternal_care_in_dogs_affect_adult_offspring_temperament

I'm interested in the genetic predictability of behavior, which is clearly doable, in practice, but which eludes genomics at the state of the art.

Which then leads back to best practices in those working in dog world at the highest level with access to largest data pools- MWDs and largest breeders, Service Dog corporate programs that track results using tools like BetterBred, etc.

And back to your point @Nordika
Look at the maternal lines for behavioral traits, and back in time to before the genetic pool was compromised by whatever it is one objects to---

This is a consistent theme, I read in archives here and elsewhere. And in horse world.

 

[BGpa]

And...to the critical early learning period, starting with the best mothering by the dam...

And some of the research and practical work being done at best breeders, and in service dog programs...
Its the nature vs nurture debate playing out as usual, with new science tools yet old world sensibility on what works...
Going back to the dawn of the early time in the co-evolution of dogs and humans.

 

[Nordika]

How does one find "the frozen boys" who carry those long ago lines.

Seems to me the best samples would be sold, already, correct? How long does sperm last? How do you find those breeders holding it, from long ago dogs?

Depends, some breeders advertise their past sires frozen semen, or you can find out who owned the dog you're interested in and ask. Also the DPCA has a list of Longevity males with frozen semen. Like this dog...14

Dobequest:Dog Profile Page

How long does it last? Idk

 

[Nordika]

Just an afterthought, should mention that someone has to pay to keep semen banked, it's not a free service.

 

[Ravenbird]

Depends, some breeders advertise their past sires frozen semen, or you can find out who owned the dog you're interested in and ask. Also the DPCA has a list of Longevity males with frozen semen. Like this dog...14
Dobequestog Profile Page How long does it last? Idk

That Alex was an awesome dog too! I guess the reason breeders don't use the frozen is expense and high risk of (usually) low numbers in the litter or the bitch not getting pregnant at all. His pedigree again, takes me back to my '91 girl - she also had Orpheus and Bronco v Zenn. At the time I didn't know what I had.