Is the doberman doomed?

[BG1]

I love this. Exactly the kind of intelligent thinking and planning that needs to be in place to pull this off. It CAN be done, but I still think it won't happen unless DPCA & AKC agree to it.


All it has to be is a breed with little to no genetic heart disease. Just like hip dysplasia - there's not a gene to say it'll happen, but there are breeds where it is relatively rare and other breeds that tend to have an overload of it.


They are the ones who would prevent the beginning of an outcross program. But if the program could be approved, using a "X factor" on any Dobermans with mix blood, then they don't have to use those lines - they can continue their breeding as always. Unless it's a smashing success and the "X factor" Dobermans slowly replace the pure lines, but even then, it would be 25 to 50 years and most of us will be dead and gone by then. And that's if they started a program yesterday.


And Yes, DCM has always been the breed, but when I followed some of the old German lines in pedigrees on

404 Not Found

I saw "confirmed DCM" or "sudden death", but most of the dogs were 9, 10, 11 years old when they died of heart disease - referring to pre-2000's. To me that's acceptable. 5, 6 or 7 is not. Inbreeding affects the lack of diversity in genes which affects the immune system, and weak immune systems create health problems on many levels: cancers increase, skin & hair problems, digestive and of course the heart & liver diseases.

If I was to make a suggestion on out-crossing I'd go right back to Mr. Dobermanns way of creating this magnificent breed: Dog pound dogs. In todays world with DNA testing, and literally millions of dogs, you can find engaging wonderful dogs that are intelligent and have a "dog shape" - no short legs, flat faces, timid, or fearful dogs. Almost every AKC breed has health problems because of narrowing gene pools. That said, I did find a perfect outcross just the other day, and it is a breed, but not AKC. I'll start another thread on that when I get some time. I have to put video on Youtube and not sure if I'll get that done today....

The one other thing that is happening is the breeder market is narrowing to the point of no return due to the average Joe unable to afford a Doberman (or many other breeds as far as that goes). Upwards to $5000 for a dog and $200+ a month for health insurance for life and almost a certainty that a major medical issue will come up by the time they're 7? Who wants to buy into that? It hurts to just think about it. Dogs use to be a joy, not a constant worry or worse yet a heartache.

So much cool stuff to noodle on in this post.
Especially honoring the breed origin story, for a dog bred to function...

@GennyB and @Oh Little Oji I think you might be interested in the behavioral angle, which is the newest mystery- breeding for function measured by other than looks...

And those interested in training may recognize this name.

Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - Guest Presentations - Sophie Liu DVM

Online dog training classes for obedience, rally, agility, tracking, nosework, dog behavior, freestyle, and foundation skills.

www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com

Standing by for diving in that rabbithole!

 

[BG1]

The link works for me. It does say “404 Not Found” but it takes me right to the website when I click it.

Me too. Odd. I fiddled with my browser(s) settings, tried using VPN, so I dont think its on the user side.
Maybe the host server filter for blocking dot ru links? Xenforo software?
What I find interesting is that database reflects a user base and interest defined by the dogs that is fairly extensive, but I would guess, doesnt overlap as a Venn diagram with the dataset of dogs and people in Dobiequest, for example.

 

[BG1]

Sorry, I did not realize that this was already posted. Feel free to merge the threads as needed and delete mine.

I dont see a problem, great minds think alike and just me personally, I appreciate this forum for being open-minded intellectually vs gate-keeping... I also dont mind if any threads I post go OT, and defer to the mods to rope in the wild horses as needed.

 

[Ravenbird]

But what if the reason they don't have genetic heart disease is because they don't have the specific combination of markers to "turn on" the heart disease? And what if they have DCM/heart related markers, that we don't even know about? We already know Dobermans can have genetic markers for DCM and NOT develop DCM... and we know Dobermans can be clear of all currently known markers, and still develop DCM. So, clearly there is something out there, a combination of genes perhaps, that we don't know about that says "yes, this dog will develop DCM" How can we blindly use another breed when we don't even know what causes DCM to begin with? With Dalmatians it was a single specific gene. DCM unfortunately is much more complicated than that.

The answer is breed history: if they show little to no heart disease and have a long lifespan, chances are, they don't carry the gene(s). When you have a breed that is averaging 30 - 45% COI, this is when it becomes nearly impossible to get away from the gene! The dice are loaded, not just with the DCM, but all the other genetic problems that 50 years ago was in a few, now if you don't get one genetic problem, chances are you'll get one of the other ones. I'm sick and saddened by the state of the Dobermans health and in the last year or two have become convinced that crossing out is the only answer for the long run.

 

[GennyB]

@GennyB and @Oh Little Oji I think you might be interested in the behavioral angle, which is the newest mystery- breeding for function measured by other than looks...

Maybe? But actually I am interested in the health. I LOVE the breed but I don't think I will ever own one again. Maybe a rescue but that would not be a decision I would take lightly.
For me to pay $3-5000 for a pup at risk for major health issues is just insane.
Sure there are some people working on trying to fix it but A.Not enough (I'm sure cost plays into that.) and B. Still way too much finger pointing and blaming going on to make any progress.
People want to blame the BYB's for this mess. That's ridiculous IMHO. The so called "reputable" have been inbreeding and linebreeding for decades. The show breeders have been breeding for looks and the working breeders have have been breeding for a dog that will bite. ANYONE that has ever bred has played a role in how we got here. It's time to swallow some pride and take responsibility and realize we have to do something NOW to save the breed.

 

[Ravenbird]

Embark DNA has a FB group where people can post their unknown breeds with the results. Mainly it's just for amusement, some post the results with their first photo and others let a guessing game go on for a while before showing results. I saw this photo of what appeared to be a purebred Doberman and the author stated it was about 90% / 10% of 2 breeds. Clearly the 90% was Dobe, turns out the other 10% was Rottweiler. I asked the OP what the COI was out of curiosity and she stated 15%. Obviously only a few generations down from a 50/50 Dobe/Rott cross and you get a very convincing Doberman looks-like, acts-like and 15% COI. Yet another example why I seriously don't think it would take much effort to save the Doberman from imploding.

And again, if the Powers That Be (DPCA and AKC) would just allow it, inserting a letter on AKC papers such as an " X " to let public know it is an outcross, then if show or working line breeders (i.e. absolute purpose bred programs) don't want it in their lines it would be easy to identify. Same way you can look at a pedigree and see a Z factor dog.

And yes, I saw the rear dew claws and thought Beauceron, but Rottweilers also have them occasionally.

 

[BG1]

And just for fun @Oh Little Oji I'm playing off your sly suggestion and spitballing more...

If you were looking to outcross to solve DCM, and widest separation/greatest diversity but still retain similar looks -
then how about use Foundation Breeds from as far away geographically as European sources of the breeds combined to make the Doberman?
If so, what about Thai Ridgeback?
Or Pharoah Dogs?
Or?

Canaan Dog
Pariah Dog
Carolina Dog, aka "American Dingo"

 

[Ravenbird]

an " X " to let public know it is an outcross,

Edit to say "an outcross or descendant of an outcross" with perhaps a cap on how many generations back or maybe forever? At any rate it would be a choice to use the X's in your program.

 

[Ravenbird]

Carolina Dog, aka "American Dingo"

I'd totally forgotten about Carolina Dogs. Reminds me in looks of the recent long-walk dog Aloka, that accompanied the Buddhists. First thing I thought was "now everyone will want one". But yeah, I'm impressed with walking 2000 miles, whether horse, dog or human. At any rate, yes, a lesser known breed that is/was tough and hardy and has zero bottlenecks in the breeding.

 

[BG1]

I have my second litter tested and on betterbred. Unfortunately, its only good if others also use it and sadly not many do. I'd be severely limiting myself choosing a stud if I only chose studs on there, as there are so many other factors to consider in this breed. It isn't like I can approach a stud I'm interested in and tell them to spend this money to see if it'd be worth using their stud, lol. But, I do plan to use it in the future when I'm ready to use these guys. At least my male is on there for others to use that info for themselves.

Thanks @Rits
I'd been asking about Expected Breeding Values and how to, etc at another dobe place online...
and only got one breeder comment saying they use Betterbred but its expensive, and so not many other breeders use it...its the same method as VGLs test.
Maybe Embark and Wisdom will find a way to add it, in their breeder toll options...competition and size of data base drives price down and usefulness up...

Dr Jerome Bell made the pitch at DPCA 2024 convention for breeders "how to do more", inc using OFA as a common database, but again, until more breeders do so, thats of limited use to both beginning breeders and the public to independently verify health testing, COI and COD.
In dobes, it appears Dobiequest is the default and until reporting completely is mandatory, for example," to be a DPCA member, or breeder for referral," = "you must update yours and your puppies info once a year"...

then IMHO it will stay an insiders club, in confo at least with the "who you know" culture and the gossip that goes with it.

I guess the only way is for some/more independent breeders to actually walk the walk on best practices, and by example drag DPCA along?

(I wouldnt expect anything from AKC in thos regard imho)

I dug into Penny's pedigree on Dobequest and noticed the "LC" for longevity in most of the line back ten years, and only a couple disclosure on DCM for COD. So thats good right?

The Chan's were interviewed by a news show and advocated for DPCA and health testing.

That probly wont have much impact on the Yoder Puppy Farmers...but every little bit of owner education helps.

So kudos to you and other busy breeders for taking the time to educate us all, and set the best practices example for other breeders.

 

[Ravenbird]

In dobes, Dobiequest is the default and until reporting completely is mandatory

That's a big one, prolly won't happen.
Also since you are not ABLE to report unless you're a DPCA member or have a friend that is and will do it for you, there is no way to submit a report if you wanted to contribute to the database!

In other words, BYB dogs that have AKC papers and the owner wants to submit that the dog died at 5 years of DCM - that information of pedigree heritage is lost on us. Or the opposite: A BYB owner with AKC dog wants to submit the ho-hum pedigree of their dog who lived to 14 with no problems. That value is lost on us. It is mostly a database of show bred Dobermans in America. Only a handful of working line breeders belong to DPCA that I'm aware of. Not many listed on Dobequest, and even with show breeders the whole litters will not be listed, so again, incomplete data. You have 5 litters, say 35 puppies, but only 17 are listed because the others are pets with no titles. Now you only have half the data that should be available especially concerning COD. As long as DPCA owns and restricts Dobequest, it will only be a partial window of information.

@Rits goes over & beyond most everything when watching her raise her two litters. Plus shows conformation and does sports with all her dogs to title both ends. But I cringe when everyone says start with DPCA listings b/c she and others like her aren't members so they can't make the list no matter how good their practices are. @Rits I hope you eventually get in, so you can be listed, and correct me if I'm wrong, maybe you got accepted? And I know you are a small breeder and don't have to have that status, but still...

 

[BG1]

That's a big one, prolly won't happen.
Also since you are not ABLE to report unless you're a DPCA member or have a friend that is and will do it for you, there is no way to submit a report if you wanted to contribute to the database!

In other words, BYB dogs that have AKC papers and the owner wants to submit that the dog died at 5 years of DCM - that information of pedigree heritage is lost on us. Or the opposite: A BYB owner with AKC dog wants to submit the ho-hum pedigree of their dog who lived to 14 with no problems. That value is lost on us. It is mostly a database of show bred Dobermans in America. Only a handful of working line breeders belong to DPCA that I'm aware of. Not many listed on Dobequest, and even with show breeders the whole litters will not be listed, so again, incomplete data. You have 5 litters, say 35 puppies, but only 17 are listed because the others are pets with no titles. Now you only have half the data that should be available especially concerning COD. As long as DPCA owns and restricts Dobequest, it will only be a partial window of information.

@Rits goes over & beyond most everything when watching her raise her two litters. Plus shows conformation and does sports with all her dogs to title both ends. But I cringe when everyone says start with DPCA listings b/c she and others like her aren't members so they can't make the list no matter how good their practices are. @Rits I hope you eventually get in, so you can be listed, and correct me if I'm wrong, maybe you got accepted? And I know you are a small breeder and don't have to have that status, but still...

Thanks @Ravenbird for that clear explanation of the current problem with the "closed" database of DQ.
Given that not all negative info is included (which is understandable- why would a hard working competitive breeder list DCM as COD if they could just sorta ...not, or as "unknown" or "old age".

And again, going back to Dr Bell eho explained thst OFA is a validated by third party source, as its been used in other breeds, and now has handier generation line vertical layout, plus pictures...

I realize that not all breeders use OFA, and have read dobe breeders say "its just another thing for people to gossip about"....

So again, like Expected Breeding Values, COD, OFA and CHIC are only so good as the breeders submissions.

Its that old computing problem:" Garbage in, Garbage out." GIGO

I dont have a dog in this fight but from what I can see, @Rits is doing the best for the breed by proofing both sides, conformation to prove musculoskeletal standard and movement, and trials to show intelligence, drive/temperament, trainability, and retention to task desired.

One can find others by looking on UDC and examining pedigrees vs show wins and titles in sports and working trials.

 

[BG1]

I'd totally forgotten about Carolina Dogs. Reminds me in looks of the recent long-walk dog Aloka, that accompanied the Buddhists. First thing I thought was "now everyone will want one". But yeah, I'm impressed with walking 2000 miles, whether horse, dog or human. At any rate, yes, a lesser known breed that is/was tough and hardy and has zero bottlenecks in the breeding.

I'll have to @grok the Aloka reference, but
Obtw I find the DNA work researching canine origins fascinating...here are a couple links:

Checking your browser - reCAPTCHA

And to the underlying point of this discusdion on breed preservation in dobes

"This piece reflects what I’ve learned from long‑time stewards, early documentary material (written and video), and preservation‑minded breeders who are wrestling with what it really means to protect a native dog in a system built for show breeds."

The Carolina Dog: Politics, Preservation, and Breed Standards

Keeping a native landrace healthy in a system built around show‑ring tradition

open.substack.com

 

[Rits]

correct me if I'm wrong, maybe you got accepted?

I have not bothered reapplying ever since I got caught up in that whole massive applicant reject period a few years ago where a bunch of very high quality applicants were rejected and it caused a huge uproar from the members. I am pretty sure I was turned down either because A.) the form erased one of my answers as a glitch, or B.) potentially because my sponsors were not, known, thus the board says that they don't know enough about me to vote... Jan was one of them, with my breeder being the other. Some people do know my breeder but she's also smaller so unless someone on the board is from our area, they probably don't know her. Which at the end of the day, I don't understand the purpose of having sponsors to begin with then if not for vetting you. I took my help to my local all breed club and working dog club. I know two doberman chapter clubs would like us to join and we plan to eventually, I just have a lot on my plate right now that I do not feel it would be fair to join them when I'm not able to focus much energy into. I appreciate the compliments, thank you. My breeder is a member so she helps me some with advertising on her site and sending a home or two my way, the rest has been personal advertising on social media and word of mouth. I don't believe you can be on the DPCA list until you are a member for 5 years anyways.

 

[DD4MSpock]

Unless, until the DPCA and AKC allow some out crossing to other breeds with immaculate details on resulting puppies and the records of breeding back to purebreds they will continue to have more and more health problems. I don't see any way out of it except bringing new blood in. They did it with Dalmations. I don't know the details but they had some kind of lndication on the registry number (like we have the Z factor to indicate albino) and if the people out there don't want "contaminated Dobermans" they don't have to breed to those who have a xyz breed 3 generations back. It's a choice! Nothing would be secretive or sneeky, ideally it would be well thought out and organized with the blessings of the DPCA & AKC. But if they started yesterday we won't have those healthier Dobes for another 15 years. Seeing what has happened to them in the last 25, I'd say we're running way late.

Is the breed/genus currently so tightly defined that it wouldn't allow some out crossing to preserve the species, or do they fear that doing so would spawn some brand new sub-species, officially? I dunno why, but the "Doodleman Pincher" seems to come to mind, although I'd judge that as a totally new sub-species. Does (for example), the Std American Dobie have enough room for some out crossing, or would it compromise the species and make it something different?

Doodleman Pinscher - Karl Fredreich Louis must be turning over in his grave!!!

 

[Ravenbird]

Is the breed/genus currently so tightly defined that it wouldn't allow some out crossing to preserve the species

Yes. For AKC & DPCA no Doberman can be registered unless it is bred to another purebred Doberman. Period, no exceptions.

So without an exception granted, you can breed a Doberman to anything you want, but you cannot register it, even if you breed the cross back to purebreds for 5 generations and have a standard dog by definition. So it doesn't serve the breed as a whole unless they allow it.

The COI average for Dobermans cannot do anything but go up and with so many in the high 30's and low 40's, the health issues are multiplying and happening at younger and younger ages.

 

[DD4MSpock]

Yes. For AKC & DPCA no Doberman can be registered unless it is bred to another purebred Doberman. Period, no exceptions.

So without an exception granted, you can breed a Doberman to anything you want, but you cannot register it, even if you breed the cross back to purebreds for 5 generations and have a standard dog by definition. So it doesn't serve the breed as a whole unless they allow it.

The COI average for Dobermans cannot do anything but go up and with so many in the high 30's and low 40's, the health issues are multiplying and happening at younger and younger ages.

Then the extinction of the species (as they define it) is on them if it happens. I hope not, but if they're going to be fussy about it... Do they not understand what's at stake? Goodness, even the UK Royal family started accepting "outsiders" to keep the genetics viable.

 

[JanS]

. I am pretty sure I was turned down either because A.) the form erased one of my answers as a glitch, or B.) potentially because my sponsors were not, known, thus the board says that they don't know enough about me to vote

One of the board members at the time said their biggest issue was that they didn't trust anyone with people from PETA and places like that trying to pose as Doberman owners to push their agenda to stop cropping and docking. They have been accepting more applicants for the last year or so but still not all.

 

[BG1]

I have not bothered reapplying ever since I got caught up in that whole massive applicant reject period a few years ago where a bunch of very high quality applicants were rejected and it caused a huge uproar from the members. I am pretty sure I was turned down either because A.) the form erased one of my answers as a glitch, or B.) potentially because my sponsors were not, known, thus the board says that they don't know enough about me to vote... Jan was one of them, with my breeder being the other. Some people do know my breeder but she's also smaller so unless someone on the board is from our area, they probably don't know her. Which at the end of the day, I don't understand the purpose of having sponsors to begin with then if not for vetting you. I took my help to my local all breed club and working dog club. I know two doberman chapter clubs would like us to join and we plan to eventually, I just have a lot on my plate right now that I do not feel it would be fair to join them when I'm not able to focus much energy into. I appreciate the compliments, thank you. My breeder is a member so she helps me some with advertising on her site and sending a home or two my way, the rest has been personal advertising on social media and word of mouth. I don't believe you can be on the DPCA list until you are a member for 5 years anyways.

@Rits I read about that, elsewhere, I'm recalling from reading archives elsewhere, and in talking with a couple owners in show world in other breeds,

That just really turned me off to DPCA. I'm trying to reserve judgement on what I dont fully know, so I'll just leave it at that.

They do seem to be making an increased effort in education, and bringing in outside views in the annual convention seminars one can find on youtube, on improving breeding, etc so there is that.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

HHmmmm.