Is the doberman doomed?

GennyB

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I recently was offered a doberman pup that needs a home. I started some research that led me down a rabbit hole.
What started as research on a pedigree quickly turned scary.
This video just sums up some of the stuff I read. The scary part for me was the info. was coming from what most would call legit places.
 
I agree that the lines need to be diversified to keep the health risks down and the breed standard up. Easier said than done I know but some breeders are doing it the right way and that's a good start.
 
The earlier youtube where John interviewed Dr Sophie Liu, which was very worth watching for Dr Liu's explanation of the frontiers study, on the prevalence, age of onset, life expectancy of various strains; NA show, UK, Germany, SA, eastern euro.


I looked on youtube page for this second vid and cant find anything "in the links below" for future testing but notice that BetterBred uses the alleles approach, with data from UCDavis testing, built for breeders to assess pairings.


Part of an informed buyers due diligence should be examining the pedigree of dogs breed to see proof of DNA results, but most important clear exho and holter with proof. I understand to get OFA on heart the echo has to be read by a cardio vet.
 
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Unless, until the DPCA and AKC allow some out crossing to other breeds with immaculate details on resulting puppies and the records of breeding back to purebreds they will continue to have more and more health problems. I don't see any way out of it except bringing new blood in. They did it with Dalmations. I don't know the details but they had some kind of lndication on the registry number (like we have the Z factor to indicate albino) and if the people out there don't want "contaminated Dobermans" they don't have to breed to those who have a xyz breed 3 generations back. It's a choice! Nothing would be secretive or sneeky, ideally it would be well thought out and organized with the blessings of the DPCA & AKC. But if they started yesterday we won't have those healthier Dobes for another 15 years. Seeing what has happened to them in the last 25, I'd say we're running way late.
 
Unless, until the DPCA and AKC allow some out crossing to other breeds with immaculate details on resulting puppies and the records of breeding back to purebreds they will continue to have more and more health problems. I don't see any way out of it except bringing new blood in. They did it with Dalmations. I don't know the details but they had some kind of lndication on the registry number (like we have the Z factor to indicate albino) and if the people out there don't want "contaminated Dobermans" they don't have to breed to those who have a xyz breed 3 generations back. It's a choice! Nothing would be secretive or sneeky, ideally it would be well thought out and organized with the blessings of the DPCA & AKC. But if they started yesterday we won't have those healthier Dobes for another 15 years. Seeing what has happened to them in the last 25, I'd say we're running way late.
One problem is the purest. They just don't want to change ANYTHING.
Then you have the finger pointing. We need breeders to stop sitting ringside gossiping about other breeders. Instead they need to reach across the aisle and say "What can we do to save the breed?"
And of coarse we have to think about the elephant in the room, DCM. It's a HUGE killer of the breed and we still know so little about it.
I doubt we are even close to accurate numbers on how many have died from it. With that of course, we as a doberman community need to stop ridiculing a breeder that has a dog die from anything really. Breeders should feel free to be honest about COD's. Sadly that is not the case.
Sorry, I did not realize that this was already posted. Feel free to merge the threads as needed and delete mine.
No worries. It can be a challenge to find a topic not covered.
 
They did it with Dalmations. I don't know the details
They were able to do it with Dalmatians because they knew exactly which gene was causing the issue. The problem is with DCM, we don't know. Outcrossing without knowing the gene would not be successful like the Dalmatian.

I remember reading this comment from Dr. Sophie Liu on facebook a few years ago and found it again to share for this conversation. Dr. Sophie Liu is the founder of the Doberman Diversity Project.

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Outcross to this breed maybe?

View attachment 158249

Actually, I don't know what's up with the light eyes.
I like the looks of the Chinese Red Dog. Its fun to speculate on outcrosses...some may be familiar with this project:

The breeds there don't appeal to me- looks more like another hypertrope effort...vs DCM reduction/lifespan but I am not knowledgeable enough on whats in the other breeds to opine. They are using VGLs tool:
"prospective breeding dogs will use UC Davis' Canine Genetic Diversity Test in comparison to the current Doberman population statistics."

Some of you may remember @kaloric who posted here (or was it the other dobe webforum?)
Anyway, she has a CRD and Dobe, and mods the r/LaizhouHong sub at reddit

Wisdom has made a dog breed page for the CRD, and so far it shows up as 75% GSD, roughly. Lots more info at the reddit sub.

What I understand is the rarity in the CRD is such that until there are more dogs bred and tested that we dont know what comes with this breed- one would figure a lot of DM and dysplasia like in other GSDs? So are you outcrossing to lower DCM but adding in other problems?

I dunno and hate to even ask questions on genetics as I know so little.

@Rits thanks for the Dr Liu FB quote. Do you use BetterBred as a breeding tool? I *think* it sorts by alleles to provide "estimated breeding value"
and draws on same database as UCDavis for the VGL Canine Diversity test there, so there is fairly broad data and credibility.
 
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And just for fun @Oh Little Oji I'm playing off your sly suggestion and spitballing more...

If you were looking to outcross to solve DCM, and widest separation/greatest diversity but still retain similar looks -
then how about use Foundation Breeds from as far away geographically as European sources of the breeds combined to make the Doberman?
If so, what about Thai Ridgeback?
Or Pharoah Dogs?
Or?
 
Here is a podcast interviewing Dr Wade and Dr Liu, before the first DonermanPlanet youtube on DCM, explaining motivation and the challenge of seeking diversity:

And here is a link to their research paper with the scattergrams and chart showing DCM in various populations, EU show, EU working, US show, etc

 
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this comment from Dr. Sophie Liu on facebook a few years ago
I love this. Exactly the kind of intelligent thinking and planning that needs to be in place to pull this off. It CAN be done, but I still think it won't happen unless DPCA & AKC agree to it.

Outcrossing without knowing the gene would not be successful like the Dalmatian.
All it has to be is a breed with little to no genetic heart disease. Just like hip dysplasia - there's not a gene to say it'll happen, but there are breeds where it is relatively rare and other breeds that tend to have an overload of it.

One problem is the purest. They just don't want to change ANYTHING.
They are the ones who would prevent the beginning of an outcross program. But if the program could be approved, using a "X factor" on any Dobermans with mix blood, then they don't have to use those lines - they can continue their breeding as always. Unless it's a smashing success and the "X factor" Dobermans slowly replace the pure lines, but even then, it would be 25 to 50 years and most of us will be dead and gone by then. And that's if they started a program yesterday.


And Yes, DCM has always been the breed, but when I followed some of the old German lines in pedigrees on

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I saw "confirmed DCM" or "sudden death", but most of the dogs were 9, 10, 11 years old when they died of heart disease - referring to pre-2000's. To me that's acceptable. 5, 6 or 7 is not. Inbreeding affects the lack of diversity in genes which affects the immune system, and weak immune systems create health problems on many levels: cancers increase, skin & hair problems, digestive and of course the heart & liver diseases.

If I was to make a suggestion on out-crossing I'd go right back to Mr. Dobermanns way of creating this magnificent breed: Dog pound dogs. In todays world with DNA testing, and literally millions of dogs, you can find engaging wonderful dogs that are intelligent and have a "dog shape" - no short legs, flat faces, timid, or fearful dogs. Almost every AKC breed has health problems because of narrowing gene pools. That said, I did find a perfect outcross just the other day, and it is a breed, but not AKC. I'll start another thread on that when I get some time. I have to put video on Youtube and not sure if I'll get that done today....

The one other thing that is happening is the breeder market is narrowing to the point of no return due to the average Joe unable to afford a Doberman (or many other breeds as far as that goes). Upwards to $5000 for a dog and $200+ a month for health insurance for life and almost a certainty that a major medical issue will come up by the time they're 7? Who wants to buy into that? It hurts to just think about it. Dogs use to be a joy, not a constant worry or worse yet a heartache.
 
Some of you may remember @kaloric who posted here (or was it the other dobe webforum?)
Anyway, she has a CRD and Dobe, and mods the r/LaizhouHong sub at reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/LaizhouHong/s/2FSVlPtoe0
Wisdom has made a dog breed page for the CRD, and so far it shows up as 75% GSD, roughly. Lots more info at the reddit sub.

What I understand is the rarity in the CRD is such that until there are more dogs bred and tested that we dont know what comes with this breed- one would figure a lot of DM and dysplasia like in other GSDs? So are you outcrossing to lower DCM but adding in other problems?
I had no idea Kaloric had a CRD / Dobe cross!

Yeah, I have no information about the CRD, really. I don't know how diverse or large its gene pool is. I just see that it typically has a rich, deep-colored coat, it has prick ears and a short, close-lying coat.

I forgot that it has GSD in it. I just had a vague feeling that it, being "exotic" would have quite a bit different genes than the Dobe.
 
All it has to be is a breed with little to no genetic heart disease.
But what if the reason they don't have genetic heart disease is because they don't have the specific combination of markers to "turn on" the heart disease? And what if they have DCM/heart related markers, that we don't even know about? We already know Dobermans can have genetic markers for DCM and NOT develop DCM... and we know Dobermans can be clear of all currently known markers, and still develop DCM. So, clearly there is something out there, a combination of genes perhaps, that we don't know about that says "yes, this dog will develop DCM" How can we blindly use another breed when we don't even know what causes DCM to begin with? With Dalmatians it was a single specific gene. DCM unfortunately is much more complicated than that.
 
Do you use BetterBred as a breeding tool? I *think* it sorts by alleles to provide "estimated breeding value"
and draws on same database as UCDavis for the VGL Canine Diversity test there, so there is fairly broad data and credibility.
I have my second litter tested and on betterbred. Unfortunately, its only good if others also use it and sadly not many do. I'd be severely limiting myself choosing a stud if I only chose studs on there, as there are so many other factors to consider in this breed. It isn't like I can approach a stud I'm interested in and tell them to spend this money to see if it'd be worth using their stud, lol. But, I do plan to use it in the future when I'm ready to use these guys. At least my male is on there for others to use that info for themselves.
 

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