High vs low drive Doberman

[Ddski5]

The Mal vs Doberman post from @JanS had me thinking about could a Doberman match a Mal? Could a high drive Doberman match a low end Mal? Intensity, power, agility, intelligence, wit, etc….Don’t know much about Mals but I do know they are absolute beast and no commoner should even think about owning one. But then again I would say the same about Ragnar but not Freyja…

I know this would be very difficult to determine but I tend to wonder what the ratio is of higher drive to lower drive Dobermans- like out of normal breeders, not breeders that train bite sports.

I say this not only because of the significant different between Freyja and Ragnar but also because of the folks that come on here seeking assistance. Some of these folks had many Dobermans in the past and have experience. Their common post is I’ve had many Dobermans in the past but this new one I have now is just out of control and I don’t know what to do….

@Ravenbird- I believe made a statement on this about her past Dobermans.
@JanS- many Dobermans in the past…have you ever had a high drive beast? Who was your most difficult to tame?
@Rits- you are just all over the place doing everything with your Dobermans in the Doberman world….what do you see out there? Do you see wild child’s out there and then see many passive patsy’s? How would you explain this?

The high and low drive Doberman is not the same animal coming into this world? How much is it the owners fault for not providing the necessary training and discipline to mold acceptable behavior?

Just something to stir up DChat…

 

[Ddski5]

@Cferg
You made an interesting post in there and mentioning your Stassi. The other Dobermans you see just don’t have that persona, that inner drive. You know they are out there but just are not seeing them.

So you think there are more lower drive less intense Dobermans out there in comparison to Stassi? Strictly your experience and observations…


For the record, I am not trying to lift up or glamorize Dobermans that are harder. I love my Freyja, she is the ideal Doberman in many ways. Dobermans like Ragnar, Asha, Stassi, Keiser have that xtra shot of Cuervo.

I know a lot can be attributed to NA vs Euro in a whole but some NA’s can be just as intense as the Euros…

 

[Ravenbird]

Thanks for starting this conversation. I'm on board for it -

Mals are high drive but not at all the same. I can say this with fair confidence after living with Reckless for almost 10(!) years. Dutch Shepherds are pretty much a Mal with stripes and a tad better off switch, but still very high drive.

The high and low drive Doberman is not the same animal coming into this world? How much is it the owners fault for not providing the necessary training and discipline to mold acceptable behavior?

I am of the opinion it's 99% genetic. Nothing will change my mind except a detailed case of neglect on the handlers part. Ragnar was "too much" for his previous home if I remember correctly?

I say this not only because of the significant different between Freyja and Ragnar but also because of the folks that come on here seeking assistance. Some of these folks had many Dobermans in the past and have experience. Their common post is I’ve had many Dobermans in the past but this new one I have now is just out of control and I don’t know what to do….

^^^ This ^^^ This is what I'm seeing.
My perfect dog, born in 1991. Her sire was at the local SchH club in Arkansas, his lines were all working lines. Dam was pretty much a backyard bred dog, but she worked on the field too. Dietrich was social, an athlete, a fast learner, incredible companion but I never introduced her to bite work and we lived at a horse training stable and tons of "weekend warriors" would come out to ride their horses on weekends. She grew up as a puppy meeting new people every week, if not every day. Maybe the upbringing helped, but she never ever had a bit of the personality that Asha has. Which brings me to the point I wanted to say: When I went searching for a working line Doberman I felt sure it would be another Dietrich, but maybe just a little bit more umph. Asha was to me the very reason I didn't want a Mal. "too much dog" in every way. Relentless in energy, drive, independent to a fault, middle finger back talk. Out on the town she lunged and barked hard at every human & dog that locked eyes with her.

I did a deep dive into pedigrees and found one littermate of Dietrich - I'd come to believe that maybe she wasn't the working lines I thought she was since she was such a kind social butterfly compared to my new puppy. Nope. SchH3 all over her sires side and a sprinkling of more on her dams side.



Dietrich had 3x the number of SchH3 dogs in her pedigree as Asha and she's missing the bottom 3rd of ancestors! So CLEARLY, working lines is not what made a dog cray-cray. This makes sense because how could those Marine Devil Dogs function in WWII if they blew their top at every little thing? Or whined loudly when they were on a down-stay with soldier handler out of sight???

The other thing that Dietrich had was calm & cool. Never a peep of a whine in her whole life. Never sucked a blanket or tore up a toy. The only training I did was 2 obedience classes. They wouldn't let me start until she was 6 months old and this puppy class was set up for AKC Obedience, back when the long down was 3 minutes and owner out of sight. D passed the first class and then the second leg class, all before she was a year old. These make CGC look like a walk in the park. I'm not belittling CGC, Asha barely squeaked through that at the same age as Dietrich was doing a long down for 3 minutes with other puppies in the line and all the owners out of the room.



The other thing - I never used or needed to use a prong or an e-collar. I went to the SchH Club to watch my friend with her Rottweilers way back then - 1980's - NObody used them. The dogs had choke chains for obedience and wide flat collars for protection work. ALL the dogs. I'm not even sure when these tools became a thing, and now they are a necessity even on pet dogs. Not just Dobermans, seems like lots of breeds nowadays you see this. And the kindly, sane, show/pet Dobes you see all the time with "back up" help.

So when I say (complain) that the breed isn't what it use to be, this is what I'm comparing it to. 30 years ago a working line Doberman that IMHO was world class personality - could have been raised in any normal home, no expertise needed.

I have more to say, but this is a good start. Haha. Thanks @Ddski5 for giving me a space to vent once again! Like you, I'm far from glorifying crazy hard a$$ dogs because the balance is gone. I'll get to the genetics in another post...

 

[Doberman Gang]

High drive, genetics, food drive, toy drive, fight drive are all different in many breeds. I see vast differences in each of the breeds. Dogs that will fight you hard but then want to cuddle later. Dogs that can turn it on at training and turn it off once home. Others there is no off switch and want to go all of the time. Blaze for one. Not a desired trait I typically want because it’s nice to have a clam dog when not training. I know GSD Mals and Dutchies with all having these differences. The best way to pick a dog is look at the parents to see how they are, still not a guarantee but should be close. For you original question can a Doberman match a mal? I say some can but very few. Definitely a better chance of getting that drive in a mal but people still need to research the lines and know what they are getting involve with.

 

[JanS]

For you original question can a Doberman match a mal? I say some can but very few. Definitely a better chance of getting that drive in a mal but people still need to research the lines and know what they are getting involve with.

I'm glad you chimed in here since you have experience with both and Blaze has to be the highest drive Doberman I know of.

I wouldn't say any of our Dobermans are or have been high drive, even though they're confidant. Phoebe was the least confidant with everything locked down so tight in this state due to Covid when she came home. She was gaining more as we were able to start getting out but she missed so much during those critical months after she got home.

Della had a through the roof prey drive but was calm as could be otherwise. Albert was 100% Euro bred but he was very laid back and just wanted to please me.

 

[Ravenbird]

High drive, genetics, food drive, toy drive, fight drive are all different in many breeds. I see vast differences in each of the breeds. Dogs that will fight you hard but then want to cuddle later. Dogs that can turn it on at training and turn it off once home. Others there is no off switch and want to go all of the time. Blaze for one. Not a desired trait I typically want because it’s nice to have a clam dog when not training. I know GSD Mals and Dutchies with all having these differences. The best way to pick a dog is look at the parents to see how they are, still not a guarantee but should be close. For you original question can a Doberman match a mal? I say some can but very few. Definitely a better chance of getting that drive in a mal but people still need to research the lines and know what they are getting involve with.

I agree with you on all of this. Curious though - how long have you had dogs and how long have you been involved in training dogs? Including your club training where you coach handlers with their AKC dogs (not bite-sports), but maybe don't train them yourself. I'm pretty sure you had pictures of an obedience class that you were teaching for AKC trialing? I'm so curious when some tipping point happened that dogs just don't seem to be as well balanced as they use to be. And maybe you were in IGP before prongs and e-collars were common place? LOL, I'm not calling you old, I'm ahead of you in years. I just know I didn't see them in the '80's and 25 years later there's hardly any dogs without them.

 

[Doberman Gang]

I agree with you on all of this. Curious though - how long have you had dogs and how long have you been involved in training dogs? Including your club training where you coach handlers with their AKC dogs (not bite-sports), but maybe don't train them yourself. I'm pretty sure you had pictures of an obedience class that you were teaching for AKC trialing? I'm so curious when some tipping point happened that dogs just don't seem to be as well balanced as they use to be. And maybe you were in IGP before prongs and e-collars were common place? LOL, I'm not calling you old, I'm ahead of you in years. I just know I didn't see them in the '80's and 25 years later there's hardly any dogs without them.

Well without getting to detailed, I have owned and trained dogs my entire life but didn’t get into AKC trials until the mid 90’s. Istart teaching at a local AKC club shortly after, that is where I was introduced to the use of prong collars. You were not allowed to refer to them as a prong or pinch collar though, had to call them training collars. They had them for sale, cheaper than the local stores and would sell them to many of the people coming to classes.
I got into IPO in 2009 and started learning more about ready dogs and dog behavior to improve training. Went to my first national championship in 2012 then went to a certification camp for Protection Sports Association and then went and got my certification with DVG.
As for the use of Prong collars or Ecollars, some dogs need them and some dogs do not, it really depends on the dog. Also training methods and how these collars are being used has come a long way since I first started. They can be a great asset if used correctly but can also be bad and can shut a dog down if used incorrectly.

You used to hear trains say all the time, “if you want to do Schutzhund you need to get a different dog.” I believe that had to do with them only training a certain way. Training has come so far and is much more human and fair for the dog. Dogs actually look to be much more free and happy in training. Some of the training methods used in the 80’s were borderline abusive, even without a print or electric collar. Ecollars have also come a long way since then, much better with the muscle stimulation collars and being able to dial up in down more gradually.

 

[Ravenbird]

Thank you for your insight with your experience. It's always interesting and you have a great background to base your opinions! Coming from training horses background myself, an old trainer once told me "You can ride one horse for 20 years but you won't learn what you do if you ride 20 horses in 1 year". No truth bigger than this, and I'm sure it's the same with dogs.

 

[Ravenbird]

I know this would be very difficult to determine but I tend to wonder what the ratio is of higher drive to lower drive Dobermans- like out of normal breeders, not breeders that train bite sports.

I say this not only because of the significant different between Freyja and Ragnar but also because of the folks that come on here seeking assistance. Some of these folks had many Dobermans in the past and have experience. Their common post is I’ve had many Dobermans in the past but this new one I have now is just out of control and I don’t know what to do….

So, just wondering what your ideas are about this? Could you imagine ever build drive in Freyja to be a personality like Ragnar? If not, that only leaves genetics. In human families, with the exception of identical twins, full siblings can be incredibly different in drive, interests and talents. As much as someone tries to breed for certain traits in dogs within one litter there will be higher drive or less social etc. This is the main reason most ethical breeders want to choose the puppy most likely to fit in with the applicants lifestyle and goals with their dog.

The ratio to higher drive out of litters from not-bite-sports breeders I'd guess to be quite low. I think most of the comments from long time owners and getting a new puppy "nothing like any I've had before" are admitting to Euro or Euro cross dogs, but you say Ragnar had no Euro breeding if I remember right? Obviously it's not just a Euro trait, but it does seem like on this forum it tends to be that Euros puppies can be more difficult. And when I use the term higher drive in this paragraph I'm talking about "too much dog" in a way that makes a puppy hard to deal with for a normal family. This drive doesn't mean it will make a good bite-sport or protection dog, just that it has extreme need for training & leadership and learning an off switch.

 

[Ravenbird]

I found a classic example these two dogs are night & day.

I’ve learned my lesson from the second one 🥲💀 #explore #reels #shorts #Suavexavier #Pets | Suave Xavier | suavexavier_ · Original audio

I’ve learned my lesson from the second one 🥲💀 #explore #reels #shorts #Suavexavier #Pets. suavexavier_ · Original audio

www.facebook.com

 

[Ddski5]

I do think that if I would have spent the same amount of time and energy in Freyja as I did Rag (every single day), she would be a solid 10/10 Doberman minus bitework. But she did not have to have that rigid training schedule to be an appropriate behaved Doberman like Rag did. Ragnar would have been an uncontrollable menace.

So I watch a lot of Doberman videos and also Mal videos. I am just amazed at what these Mals can and are willing to do. Mals are running up walls/trees, jumps over high/wide hedges, flying off cliffs, etc…I do firmly understand they are different animals with different outlooks/purposes but how much of that is a Mal being a Mal vs a damn good experienced trainer knowing what to do with it? So can a Mal trainer train a common high drive Doberman to perform like a high drive Mal? Am I way off base with this comparison? I am trying to think of a way to dumb it down for me to understand- kinda like different kinds of athletes maybe? A soccer player vs a rugby player? Both are exceptional athletes but both have different sets of skills and abilities??

I see a Doberman being more of a personal entourage vs a heat seeking missile. But this is where Ragnar was different than Freyja. He liked to go search and guard the grounds, then come back and give you a nose butt and then run back out searching; whereas Freyja is no more than 6ft away and checking on you.

And yes, Ragnar was 100% out of a long line of NA show lines. His breeder has been at hardcore showing and titling for over 40yrs- which didn’t make sense to me considering how much of a wild child he was. You would think he would be more of a show ring prince….How in the world did he come out of a docile show line and become the hard challenge he was. Sure he was my first Doberman and I had a lot to learn but he was no where comparable to how easy Freyja was/is….

I often settle my mind thinking argument with what you have said many times to members with issues: You have to train the Doberman in front of you….which tells me there can be different types of personalities from one end of the spectrum to the other, just like the video you posted. His black male Bear is a beast that is extremely quick to jump and aggressive when on and his female is a patient thinker….I guess that’s what amazes me- how they can be so vastly different.

 

[Kswoodssue]

…and then I am unceasingly amazed by how many traits Dobermans all share. It seems we are discussing the question of Nature vs Nurture. Having worked in the mental health field for years, I can’t help referring to my experience. One of the most important and telling questions I would ask during an assessment was “Does anyone in your family have issues with their mental health?”. No matter how lovingly someone was raised, the role played by heredity is huge. I am a strong believer that the same is true for dogs as well. I have raised many dogs through the years, and I have never raised the same dog twice. Each has been different. Each has been loved. You may have a kennel full of high drive dogs, but each one will be unique. What is that magic ingredient, or mix of ingredients, that separate a good performance dog from a great one, or what gives a great racehorse that special quality for greatness? So do I think heredity is everything? Nope! Think of the best dogs you know or the best racehorses. None of them could have reached their greatest potential without great trainers who took the time to know and understand the unique individuality of their animal. Anyway, my 2 cents worth.

 

[Rits]

@Rits- you are just all over the place doing everything with your Dobermans in the Doberman world….what do you see out there? Do you see wild child’s out there and then see many passive patsy’s? How would you explain this?

DG pretty much covered it below!!

High drive, genetics, food drive, toy drive, fight drive are all different in many breeds. I see vast differences in each of the breeds. Dogs that will fight you hard but then want to cuddle later. Dogs that can turn it on at training and turn it off once home. Others there is no off switch and want to go all of the time. Blaze for one. Not a desired trait I typically want because it’s nice to have a clam dog when not training. I know GSD Mals and Dutchies with all having these differences. The best way to pick a dog is look at the parents to see how they are, still not a guarantee but should be close. For you original question can a Doberman match a mal? I say some can but very few. Definitely a better chance of getting that drive in a mal but people still need to research the lines and know what they are getting involve with.

@Ddski5
Simply put, Dobermans aren't herding breeds. They aren't designed to do something repetitive over and over until they drop. I think MOST dobermans are easier to live with in the house than any working line herding breed. What good is a doberman that cannot turn off and lay next to you on the couch when an intruder comes in? Hold on, let me go to the garage to open the kennel for my protection dog. Haha... From what I've witnessed in person, these herding breeds can take a beating too... if they do something wrong *clonk* and no grudge held against you as the handler. Doberman does something wrong *clonk* they'll remember it for A LONG time and will forever associate x with y.

Almost all show lines have relatively high prey drive of varying degrees but usually its pretty "high" compared to other breeds. There are many more drives than that to consider. I think most people showing or trialing in performance things with their dobes are in deep... they know how to handle the breed and all that comes with it so it looks "easy".

Ragnar... without really evaluating him in person, just going off of your words here, I would have 100% placed him in a performance home. Someone that wanted and was going to give him a job every day. Not that you didn't do a great job with him! Nor regret having him in your life!! Just that he would have been best suited to a performance home vs a pet home, especially a first time dobe home. Less stress on the pet home, mental needs easier met in a performance just because they would be taking him daily to classes, practice runs, trials etc. that he wouldn't have much room to "be a hard ass" because his energy needs would have easily been met and his mental needs met, his brain would be dead tired. Freyja on the other hand sounds like she's the perfect girl for a companion home, easy to live with, almost like you could put her in any home, even a first time doberman home. Yes, the extra needs for this breed would still apply to even Freyja, she would just be less high energy and easier to live with, without a daily job.

I have a mix in my home with 4 dobermans. Ripley is my ideal; plenty of drive and energy to do all the fun things that I want but also able to turn off and chill. Whether that be for a few hours, or even a few days because you're sick... she's capable and content with her "job" in her mind being next to you. But then she is just as ready to spring up and go run a marathon. Trendy, Ripley's daughter, is almost a copy/paste in drive, energy, and livability. I've been able to trust her in my house loose earlier than any of the boys. I don't know if its a girl thing or its because she's like her mother. I'd say she has a touch more energy than her mother and she has KILLER toy drive. She's very biddable and wants to be right. Revel (grandmother on mother's side is Ripley's mom) needs his energy needs met daily but easier to live with too. Probably could be in a pet home as long as they walked or free ran him every day. Very biddable and wants to please. Stavros (half sibling to Ripley, diff mom) always a 12/10!!! Almost no off switch. He isn't much younger than Revel and is a hard dog to live with. This is coming from me who now has experience with dobermans. Interesting that my "hardest" dog is my more recent dog He's just go, go, go, go. He needs a job but his young boy ADHD brain makes it hard for him to focus. He is always moving. He's starting to just barely "settle" for mere glimpses. I'll rarely catch him laying down on his own, usually after a long session of training and exercise BOTH met. He's ready to go again after an hour of rest. I would not breed him to a girl that was similar to him unless I really wanted some serious performance puppies.

I don't want couch potatoes. These are dobermans, not lap dogs. I do believe they thrive the most when active ...it can be anything, but something more than just seeing the inside of the home. However, as the only breed created solely as a personal protection dog, they should also be able to live with man in the home.

So do I think heredity is everything? Nope! Think of the best dogs you know or the best racehorses. None of them could have reached their greatest potential without great trainers who took the time to know and understand the unique individuality of their animal.

100% !!!

 

[Ravenbird]

From what I've witnessed in person, these herding breeds can take a beating too... if they do something wrong *clonk* and no grudge held against you as the handler. Doberman does something wrong *clonk* they'll remember it for A LONG time and will forever associate x with y.

Years and years ago I was told the definition of a "hard dog" and that is one that takes correction without complaint, without sulking and with instant recovery and definitely without cowering. Dobermans are very different than herders, but a hard Doberman is what I think @Ddski5 is referring to in this conversation, not high or low drive. Hard Dobermans are not common outside working lines, but even the hardest Dobe will be extremely sensitive on a personal level. And when those of us with hard dogs have a difficult time training, especially though adolescence, it's because all the "clonking" in the world doesn't bother them. They could care less. It's not that they don't remember it or learn, it's that they just don't care if it happens again because being a bad ass is more fun and worth getting clonked over. It takes a LOT to get through to them whereas a softer dog just says "ok, cool, I'll just lay right here and stay out of your hair".

I am just amazed at what these Mals can and are willing to do. Mals are running up walls/trees, jumps over high/wide hedges, flying off cliffs, etc…I do firmly understand they are different animals with different outlooks/purposes but how much of that is a Mal being a Mal vs a damn good experienced trainer knowing what to do with it? So can a Mal trainer train a common high drive Doberman to perform like a high drive Mal?

It's a high end Mal doing what they do, I don't think any Doberman can match the intensity of those types - even if they had the brain-set, they don't have the body type. Dobes have clunky cat feet and a heavy front end and Mals are like a marathon runner, pencil thin and long slim hare feet. So the extreme Mal performances are just that: extreme.

Both are exceptional athletes but both have different sets of skills and abilities??

Yes.

I see a Doberman being more of a personal entourage vs a heat seeking missile. But this is where Ragnar was different than Freyja. He liked to go search and guard the grounds, then come back and give you a nose butt and then run back out searching; whereas Freyja is no more than 6ft away and checking on you.

Yes, in both cases it's obvious that the Doberman centers around their person, but the "watchful eye" to the grounds and suspicion of strangers or alarm barking is what the breed was originally designed to do. Some still do and some don't.

You have to train the Doberman in front of you….which tells me there can be different types of personalities from one end of the spectrum to the other, just like the video you posted. His black male Bear is a beast that is extremely quick to jump and aggressive when on and his female is a patient thinker….I guess that’s what amazes me- how they can be so vastly different.

Yup!!! (and also, his red dog is a male too, pretty sure.)

 

[Rits]

Hard Dobermans are not common outside working lines, but even the hardest Dobe will be extremely sensitive on a personal level.

Yes, exactly what I mean. That's what, from my observation, is one of the key differences between the herders and guardian breeds. If the clonking comes from the handler, it's much more personal for a Doberman or even a Cane Corso, because of their design. Herders, doesn't matter and sometimes doesn't even get the message across. I don't want a hard breed that needs frequent clonking lol. I love everything about these "sensitive" breeds BECAUSE they are sensitive and aware to their handler.

 

[Ddski5]

That’s some really good information y’all…
Building up the DChat library with this!!

 

[Kswoodssue]

…and then I am unceasingly amazed by how many traits Dobermans all share. It seems we are discussing the question of Nature vs Nurture. Having worked in the mental health field for years, I can’t help referring to my experience. One of the most important and telling questions I would ask during an assessment was “Does anyone in your family have issues with their mental health?”. No matter how lovingly someone was raised, the role played by heredity is huge. I am a strong believer that the same is true for dogs as well. I have raised many dogs through the years, and I have never raised the same dog twice. Each has been different. Each has been loved. You may have a kennel full of high drive dogs, but each one will be unique. What is that magic ingredient, or mix of ingredients, that separate a good performance dog from a great one, or what gives a great racehorse that special quality for greatness? So do I think heredity is everything? Nope! Think of the best dogs you know or the best racehorses. None of them could have reached their greatest potential without great trainers who took the time to know and understand the unique individuality of their animal. Anyway, my 2 cents worth.

I imagine one can’t discount trauma as a factor as well.

 

[JanS]

Our trainer considers her Beaucerans "rustic", meaning they have a high drive and aren't for just anyone. They need constant training and exercise to keep that edge off so if you fall off for a day, they're going to figure it out and take advantage of it.

 

[Ravenbird]

I don't want a hard breed that needs frequent clonking lol. I love everything about these "sensitive" breeds BECAUSE they are sensitive and aware to their handler.

But they were designed and created to be hard to pressure and it's over the years that it's been bred out of them. Why they, as a breed, are mostly failures at bite sports. JQP doesn't want or need a super hard dog, but most of the working lines are hard because it very much connected to good strong nerves and not backing down when pressure gets tough in the sport (or in real life for protection or police work). So back to square one, breeders specialize in what they want their program to look like, but now & then there are outliers in the litters that grabbed some genes from way back and don't match the breeders expectations. And not just Dobermans, all breeds! In general, the puppies will be what their linage suggest they will be.

And also, back to the original terms used: high & low drive, this is the go go go we're talking about, need to be busy, need a job. That's something I always thought of as Mal or Border Collie. The need to DO to the point of insanity. We always laughed at the laid back Rottweilers saying they'd kill an intruder and be asleep on the couch by the time the police showed up. They were intense workers, but no desire to stay busy. And I honestly believe that may have been the old design for the Doberman. Alert and Watchful and Energetic yes. A busy-bee, not so much.

 

[Rits]

created to be hard to pressure

Hard to pressure from their handler vs from an outside source are two different things, imo. The breed will always be sensitive to their handler. It's what makes a doberman a doberman! Bite sports were never designed for the doberman. It's the closest thing we have though to test their original design. I agree that they should be hard to pressure from outside source. Some of that in the form of distractions I find is difficult for a doberman in general just because they ARE so naturally alert to outside stimuli. They need to be trained to ignore it.

need to be busy, need a job. That's something I always thought of as Mal or Border Collie.

the laid back Rottweilers saying they'd kill an intruder and be asleep on the couch by the time the police showed up.

I always considered an ideal doberman to be in between the herders and the mastiffs like Rotts in terms of energy levels and drive. If the doberman is supposed to protect man from man, then they need to be able to keep up with man. Human's advantage seen in hunter gatherer times has always been their endurance. A doberman should have great endurance too.