Is an e collar too much?

[Sage024]

Hey again, thank you for all the advice so far!

Some context (skip this paragraph if you want to get straight to the question): Kanda is 8 months old tomorrow and doing alright. He is no longer going to day care or dog parks for the foreseeable future and we are locking down on training. We have had about six sessions with one trainer that comes to my apartment and works with us in or outside. She’s been great and we have kanda crate trained, he knows sit, lay down, go lay down/go to bed, and is less anxious when I leave him during the day time. Our biggest issue is now leash training. He is super hard headed and only wants to pull! We have tried using his collar, a slip lead and a halti. Currently, the halti is the only thing I can safely walk him with, because on a harness or collar, he can nearly pull me over or rip the lead out of my hands if he charges a squirrel. We have tried training heel with treats and the halti, having him walk at my heel following the treat etc. I’ve had a little success with this method during sessions but it never carries over. He also doesn’t care at all if I turn him around every time he pulls. Our last 3-4 sessions were focused on leash training and I’ve been working with him at home and he’s still extremely difficult on a leash. I want to get him trained before he’s fully grown, one issue I have now is money. We have had nearly constant vet bills for a skin infection, diarrhea and now kennel cough. I’m financially getting pretty drained BUT he is very much on the mend and nearly perfect health wise once he recovers from his cough.

Here’s my question: is e collar training too harsh/too much? My parents have offered to gift me 4 sessions with a different trainer (off leash k9 training). Which is their full obedience package for $615. They do 4 private lessons, you do the lesson and then spend the next few weeks perfecting those commands then do another etc. they include a lead and e collar, so it is e collar training. Our current trainer doesn’t use anything like e collar, prong collar, choke collar etc for ethical reasons. This makes me question using an e collar method. The place has awesome reviews and seems very reputable. I’m just not familiar with e collar and don’t want to do anything that will damage my relationship with my dobie

 

[Oh Little Oji]

If introduced and used properly the e collar is a great tool. Don't believe the overly touchy-feely nonsense that is growing more and more popular out there.

That said, 8 months is still a fairly tender age. Does the Off Leash Training outfit believe your dog is not too young? I would hope they really know what they're doing. Is this the big chain of training franchises? I've seen some videos online from an outfit of that name where they often show the dogs being walked off leash through Home Depots.

My principle is: The dog should be taught the commands without the e collar first, and be able to demonstrate that they understand and can follow the commands well before you ever start using the e collar to enforce them. Of course, the e collar should never be used just as a way to generally try to tell your dog you don't like what they're doing. It should only be used as a correction for breaking a command they know, understand and can follow.

Used incorrectly, an e collar can make a breed like the Doberman even more semi-neurotic than it is.

 

[Tropicalbri's]

An e collar when used properly is a great tool in training.
A prong collar as well is a great tool when used properly. It is far safer than a slip lead as it is self limiting.

We started using an e collar once they understood what you are asking of them.
I would rather give my dog a quick stim to prevent him/her charging an animal or running in front of a car and being injured or worse killed.

Any collar can be abused by the handler. Education on the proper use of these tools is vastly important.
A halti is not recommended in this breed due to stress on the neck. Dobermanns are prone to Wobblers Diseas and I personally feel a Halti places their neck and chest in an uncomfortable position that could result in injury and cause issues later on.

A prong collar is the difference between driving with power steering and driving a manual steering.
You have a greater control over the dog unlike a slip lead that could damage the esophagus and neck.

I would accept your parents gift and learn a different method of training that many times works better for this breed.
Positive only training may work for some but Dobermans are a strong breed and corrections are necessary.
I’m not trying to bash your positive only trainer at all.
It’s just Dobermans need a firm but fair hand in training, otherwise they will attempt to become alpha and control you.

As far as yanking you when they see a squirrel or other distractions learn to read their body language and defuse the situation before it escalates to a higher zone.
Give them a command and teach them that jerking and trying to chase something while on lead is not acceptable.
Many Dobermanns have a high prey drive so you must recognize the signs in their body language and correct immediately. Timing is everything in training regardless of the tools you use.

Good luck and keep up updated on your progress with Kanda.

 

[Sage024]

If introduced and used properly the e collar is a great tool. Don't believe the overly touchy-feely nonsense that is growing more and more popular out there.

That said, 8 months is still a fairly tender age. Does the Off Leash Training outfit believe your dog is not too young? I would hope they really know what they're doing. Is this the big chain of training franchises? I've seen some videos online from an outfit of that name where they often show the dogs being walked off leash through Home Depots.

My principle is: The dog should be taught the commands without the e collar first, and be able to demonstrate that they understand and can follow the commands well before you ever start using the e collar to enforce them. Of course, the e collar should never be used just as a way to generally try to tell your dog you don't like what they're doing. It should only be used as a correction for breaking a command they know, understand and can follow.

Used incorrectly, an e collar can make a breed like the Doberman even more semi-neurotic than it is.

Yes! It’s that franchise. This specifically is Off Leash K9 Training Georgia. I’d like to have a call with them before accepting the offer to make sure they understand his age etc. he’s still a puppy and in his dober teens so I don’t want to use too harsh of a training tool

 

[Sage024]

An e collar when used properly is a great tool in training.
A prong collar as well is a great tool when used properly. It is far safer than a slip lead as it is self limiting.

We started using an e collar once they understood what you are asking of them.
I would rather give my dog a quick stim to prevent him/her charging an animal or running in front of a car and being injured or worse killed.

Any collar can be abused by the handler. Education on the proper use of these tools is vastly important.
A halti is not recommended in this breed due to stress on the neck. Dobermanns are prone to Wobblers Diseas and I personally feel a Halti places their neck and chest in an uncomfortable position that could result in injury and cause issues later on.

A prong collar is the difference between driving with power steering and driving a manual steering.
You have a greater control over the dog unlike a slip lead that could damage the esophagus and neck.

I would accept your parents gift and learn a different method of training that many times works better for this breed.
Positive only training may work for some but Dobermans are a strong breed and corrections are necessary.
I’m not trying to bash your positive only trainer at all.
It’s just Dobermans need a firm but fair hand in training, otherwise they will attempt to become alpha and control you.

As far as yanking you when they see a squirrel or other distractions learn to read their body language and defuse the situation before it escalates to a higher zone.
Give them a command and teach them that jerking and trying to chase something while on lead is not acceptable.
Many Dobermanns have a high prey drive so you must recognize the signs in their body language and correct immediately. Timing is everything in training regardless of the tools you use.

Good luck and keep up updated on your progress with Kanda.

Good to know! And yes he definitely needs firm training. He’s super hard headed and is constantly testing boundaries at this age. I’m in a bit of a pickle with the walking situation currently. Walking him on a normal collar or harness is very difficult currently. I’ve been told a front clip harness is a bad idea because it can pull their shoulders out of alignment. The back clip harness is rough because it encourages him to pull. The vet told me to avoid using his collar to walk right now because he is recovering from kennel cough and his trachea needs a break. All I have besides those is a halti, and if that is strain on their neck then I don’t want to use that either. Luckily, currently, we aren’t walking much besides potty breaks because the vet wants him away from dogs and resting. I really need him to learn loose leash quickly because he’s just getting bigger and stronger and I want to be able to exercise him without so much struggle.

 

[Tropicalbri's]

The prong collar sits up high just behind the ear. Most people gets prongs and have them too big and they drop down on the neck and a dobe will pull against that.
It needs to be snug and high up to be able to issue a proper correction.
The prong will solve the issue of pulling.
I would recommend a Herm Sprenger. Leerburg has them and training videos on how to properly use it.

 

[Ddski5]

Positive training with him is only going to get you so far. My male was like that and was very independent and bull headed. My male was kicking my arse until I implemented both prong and ECollar. These tools really gave me the edge I needed to gain control.

I did the K9 off leash training that you are referring to and it helped- I want to say the guy was out of Southern Georgia along the coast?.?….

It gave me another tool to get his attention and decreased my frustrations of getting no where with positive only, 180dg turns, quick snap jerks, etc…..

Tbh, correct usage of a 2.25mm prong collar had a tremendous affect more so than what the ECollar does for me-especially with leash manners and close by obedience. The E Collar can be used with leash training but I use it ALOT more for Offleash activities such as healing, 10/20/30/100 yards out commands of sit, down, look at me, drop it, etc….

It cracks me up that the snowflakes scream that I am torturing my Dobermans with prong/ECollar…..then why when I say the words or if they see me go pick one up- why do they both go crazy nuts with happiness and excitement?? It’s because they know we are going outside to train or run offleash. There is no way in hell that I would let either one of my Dobermans run freely offleash without an ECollar. One squirrel, one cat throw them into a high prey drive, them running full speed across the road and getting hit? Nope…they can keep their dogs leashed at 10’ while mine run freely at 75yards with an ECollar.


I still use both of these tools daily….

 

[JanS]

I agree, the flat collar is going to put the most pressure on the trachea because they want to pull so much and a harness just encourages and gives them leverage to pull.

Anyone who discourages a prong collar or e-collar doesn't understand how to use them correctly or doesn't want to understand because they're always right (in their opinion).

 

[CRDobe]

Please just don't slap a prong or an e-collar on your dog without proper instruction ( esp the e-collar!) about their use.

 

[jazzies mum]

I did not know anything at all about prong collars or e-collars before I owned a feisty Doberman mix! Never had to use them before on any dog so I tried pretty much everything else, including the halti before researching further. The halti worked but made my dog just so miserable that she would hang her head when she saw it coming.

Your relationship will not be harmed by using an e-collar and prong collar to help with training providing you are them correctly. I use the e-collar for off leash work and as said before she views it going on as meaning we are off for some great fun!

 

[Sage024]

Positive training with him is only going to get you so far. My male was like that and was very independent and bull headed. My male was kicking my arse until I implemented both prong and ECollar. These tools really gave me the edge I needed to gain control.

I did the K9 off leash training that you are referring to and it helped- I want to say the guy was out of Southern Georgia along the coast?.?….

It gave me another tool to get his attention and decreased my frustrations of getting no where with positive only, 180dg turns, quick snap jerks, etc…..

Tbh, correct usage of a 2.25mm prong collar had a tremendous affect more so than what the ECollar does for me-especially with leash manners and close by obedience. The E Collar can be used with leash training but I use it ALOT more for Offleash activities such as healing, 10/20/30/100 yards out commands of sit, down, look at me, drop it, etc….

It cracks me up that the snowflakes scream that I am torturing my Dobermans with prong/ECollar…..then why when I say the words or if they see me go pick one up- why do they both go crazy nuts with happiness and excitement?? It’s because they know we are going outside to train or run offleash. There is no way in hell that I would let either one of my Dobermans run freely offleash without an ECollar. One squirrel, one cat throw them into a high prey drive, them running full speed across the road and getting hit? Nope…they can keep their dogs leashed at 10’ while mine run freely at 75yards with an ECollar.


I still use both of these tools daily….

Your experience sounds a lot like mine. He learns super quick with positive enforcement but only with SOME types of commands. I can teach him a new “cute trick” or basic obedience thing in 15 minutes with food (like paw or spin or go lay down). But positive reinforcement has not touched things like leave it or heel/loose leash walking. He’s too headstrong and just does what he wants with that.

We’ve been doing the treats at my hip, 180 turns, quick leash snaps etc for weeks and none of it has made progress with his pulling. Sounds like the off leash k9 training may be the way to go then

 

[Sage024]

Please just don't slap a prong or an e-collar on your dog without proper instruction ( esp the e-collar!) about their use.

I wouldn’t! The e collar is provided as part of the off leash k9 training package. So I would assume the instructor would teach me how to properly use it

 

[Sage024]

I did not know anything at all about prong collars or e-collars before I owned a feisty Doberman mix! Never had to use them before on any dog so I tried pretty much everything else, including the halti before researching further. The halti worked but made my dog just so miserable that she would hang her head when she saw it coming.

Your relationship will not be harmed by using an e-collar and prong collar to help with training providing you are them correctly. I use the e-collar for off leash work and as said before she views it going on as meaning we are off for some great fun!

My boy hates the halti as well but it’s all I have currently that “works”. Getting it on him is easy enough with a treat, but once it’s on he gets so distracted and constantly rubs his head against my legs or paws at it to try and rub it off. It’s padded at least so I know it’s not rubbing his snout but he’s just not a fan of the way it pulls back at him.

 

[Ddski5]

The ECollar is a great tool but have you tried the prong collar? @Tropicalbri's is 100% correct, it’s like power steering from manual steering and when used correctly, there is ZERO pull or disobedience on the leash.

And like the ECollar, it becomes learned behavior that saves both you and him major frustration. So, it’s not a constant thing over and over if instilled correctly.

 

[CRDobe]

I found the prong collar is the very best tool for pulling.

 

[Tropicalbri's]

I found the prong collar is the very best tool for pulling.

I have too. Learning to use properly is still a must as you had stated earlier.

 

[Doberman Gang]

As a trainer I always teach people to use the prong collar first, then I make the setting on the ecollar and then pair it with the prong correction. This will get them off leash and gives a proper understanding of the ecollar. Ecollar type is also extremely important. More settings are better than collars with just a dozen or so. Being able to fine tune the collar without be too harsh is important. Find out what style collar comes with the program. Educators are my preferred but there are many other good ones as well.

 

[Sage024]

The ECollar is a great tool but have you tried the prong collar? @Tropicalbri's is 100% correct, it’s like power steering from manual steering and when used correctly, there is ZERO pull or disobedience on the leash.

And like the ECollar, it becomes learned behavior that saves both you and him major frustration. So, it’s not a constant thing over and over if instilled correctly.

I have not tried a prong, that’s another tool that the trainer I started with doesn’t use, so I had avoided it

 

[Tropicalbri's]

@Doberman Gang is correct in starting with a prong before an e collar. I think the majority of us started with prong then progressed to e collar for off lead training.
My two see the prong and get excited to have it on because they know we are going somewhere fun.
When they see the e collar it’s an even higher level of excitement because they associate it with off lead hiking, ocean swimming and training.

 

[Sage024]

@Doberman Gang is correct in starting with a prong before an e collar. I think the majority of us started with prong then progressed to e collar for off lead training.
My two see the prong and get excited to have it on because they know we are going somewhere fun.
When they see the e collar it’s an even higher level of excitement because they associate it with off lead hiking, ocean swimming and training.

This is really great to hear. I’m hoping to have a conversation with this trainer soon so that I can ask about the different collars and their training methods.

Also, Id love to be able to take Kanda with me for off leash hikes and beach visits etc (my family tries to get to the beach once a year for a few weeks) and I just know he would have a blast running on the sand and playing in the water. BUT I have seen too many horror stories about dogs getting too excited and running out past the house and onto the road. There just has to be an extra level of control for those situations. Hopefully the e collar can do that!