Pantheon Dobermans

[JanS]

The breeder has not responded to me since last Friday. I have contacted DPCA as well. They suggested I return her but again I can't do that if the breeder doesn't take my calls or answer my emails.

That's too bad. Do you think she's out of town or something is going on where she can't respond? I know nothing about this breeder, but I try to give the benefit of the doubt at first, unless they already have a know reputation for doing things like this.

 

[alicia.delrosario.9]

I'm not sure. I hate to think the worse as well but it seems there have a been a few who have had similar experiences from her and sadly I didn't see that until searching her out on here. Again lesson learned. It's not so much the money as just not being honest. That's what bothers me. Knowing a small child lives in this house; not cool in my book. Would Deja hurt him? I seriously don't know but she's scared to death and my son is 4; can't risk that. [emoji31]

 

[Ingrid H]

Nobody can judge how safe your dog is around children over the internet, but you already know to use the utmost caution with a frightened and unsocialized dog.

I hope you can return the pup for a refund since she was obviously not what you thought you were buying, and I wish I could take her instead of her falling back into the hands of the person who raised her so poorly. Do you have a contract with this breeder? Are you required to return her if you can't keep her? Can you return her if she has a temperament problem? If you are not contractually obligated to return the dog, then you may be able to find her a more suitable home through a Doberman rescue.
[DOUBLEPOST=1424314828,1424313963][/DOUBLEPOST]

Is your dog just fearful or is it fearful and aggressive/nippy/etc?

For me fearful is easy to train into a therapy dog. But it depends if fearful is combined with other issues.

Seriously? I find fearfulness to be really hard to deal with.

 

[shadash]

Nobody can judge how safe your dog is around children over the internet, but you already know to use the utmost caution with a frightened and unsocialized dog.

Seriously? I find fearfulness to be really hard to deal with.

It depends if the fearfulness is just that or if it's combined with aggression. Fearfulness by itself just requires a soft touch + watching to see what the dog is interested in and using that as a treat to encourage a desired behavior. If you're dealing with fearfulness and aggression that can be a scary situation because you never quite know when the dog will lash out.

 

[Rits]

Sadly, doing a quick search on Google for "Pantheon Dobermans" you'll find similar experiences with this breeder. If you cannot get a hold of her after repeated attempts, I would get in contact with a local obedience club and try to see if you can work through this with someone that can help hands on. It really sucks this happened but I want to thank you for taking the time to post so that maybe others may come across this bit of info and possibly avoid a similar situation.

 

[alicia.delrosario.9]

Thank you all for the kind words and helpful suggestions. As I said she is scheduled to be assessed by an experienced trainer this weekend. We will see what the outcome is. I finally received an email late last night from a woman claiming to be the breeders colleague. She claims that she assisted in training Deja and that I should call her as to have her walk me through what I'm doing wrong. I kindly replied back thanking her and expressing how I would have expected to hear back from the breeder directly. Well Debra did email later very angrily saying she hasn't responded because she is so angry with me and that Deja is everything she expressed her to be. She reports she is willing to refund me half of what I paid for her and that I can then keep Deja. I am asking for a full refund and to return her or to have Debra pay all of Deja's training. And I know I'm not by any means a dog trainer but Deja would be my second Dobie I've owned and she is not trained at all not is she proofed on anything as the breeder claims she is. I don't know I could have done wrong from the time I unloaded her out of the crate at the airport to now that would have caused her to lose all that training as the breeder is now claiming I've done. [emoji17]

 

[Dobs4ever]

I am truly sorry about this situation. I would forward the anger e mails to the DPCA board list I suggested. If the dog is not satisfactory which in my opinion no dog trained and socialized would behave the way you describe right out of the box - not if she was honestly trained as stated. Ingrid brought up a good point ...... DO you have a contract - DPCA members are suppose to have a contract. If not be sure to let DPCA know you can't get shot records (and sorry but the vet should verify by her health certificate that the shots where actually given to the dog prior to shipping. The health shot record should have been reviewed by the vet before issuing the certificate for flying. I would contact him back and ask him is he required to verify a shot record prior to issuing a health certificate and is it a violation that he can't. It might make him STOP just trusting her and cause her some problems which might not be a bad thing.

If you do not have a contract then I would take half your money back and let her know if you do not get the rest you will file a complaint with the BBB and DPCA. Then I would place her with rescue in your area and find the right dog. Next time be sure that you have e mails and a contract to back up what the breeder tells you and what you are asking for. Then you can hold her accountable. Also be sure to get written evaluation from the trainer this weekend and send a copy to Debra Green and DPCA. If a breeder is not willing to put it all in writing then walk away.

 

[alicia.delrosario.9]

Dobs4ever thank you for the great advice. I did not get a contract from her although I was expecting one because her terms were I was not to spay Deja until 2 years of age and that it would be stated in the contract. In her email to me she said she didn't do a contract because she trusted me. I did reply back her staying I would be forwarding the trainers evaluation to her. Will see what happens.

 

[Dobs4ever]

So what do you have in e mails that commit her??? Do you have an e mail stating she is trained and ready for CGC - this is written and can be verified??? I would definitely let DPCA know you do not have a contract. It is part of our COE that we have a contract... It does not matter if I trust someone or not - it goes in writing exactly what both parties agree to. Then these issues are much easier to handle. I am truly sorry to read where a DPCA member is behaving this way. I am on a private DPCA breeder group and have asked for info on her. I will let you know what I get back.

 

[alicia.delrosario.9]

I have submitted all communication from her to DPCA. She has contacted me via email only since I contacted DPCA. She is extremely upset and feels I have done defamation of character to her. I don't feel that I have done so. She is claiming in her email that the dog was trained.

 

[JanS]

She has contacted me via email only since I contacted DPCA. She is extremely upset and feels I have done defamation of character to her. I don't feel that I have done so.

That alone sounds fishy to me, but it sounds like a defense reaction from her. I would give her more of the benefit of the doubt if she replied to you "before" you contacted the DPCA, but after the fact sounds like she's just covering her reputation.
I hope I'm wrong, but it just doesn't sound right to me on her side.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Thank goodness she stated in the e mail the dog is trained. Now see what your trainer says. The breeder group I am talking to said we really need a way for outsiders to file a complaint against a DPCA member who does not follow the COE. They did not have much good to say about her but if she is mad enough she just might give you your money back rather than face the music from DPCA.

 

[alicia.delrosario.9]

Just wanted to give an update on Deja. She is still extremely fearful and not able to go places due to how nervous she gets. Here is an evaluation that was done Sunday by a well respected trainer in my area. I have forwarded this to DPCA and have been advised they are contacting the breeder for full refund and return of Deja.

Dear Alicia and whom it also may concern,Thank you Alicia for bringing Deja in to see us on Sunday. When we evaluate dogs, we absolutely take in to account the information and feedback from the owners, but more importantly, our overall assessment of the dogs are based on things that we learn from watching, observing, and interacting with the dogs.Based solely on information obtained from Deja, here are some key observations from the brief time that we spent with her:• Deja was extremely nervous, anxious and fearful when she arrived at our training center.• Everyday noises, such as a chair being moved, caused her to cower in fear for a brief moment.• It took her some time but Deja eventually interacted with myself and Tracey(co owner). Deja was able to get comfortable enough to take food from us and approach us while we were seated.• Although her fear and nervousness would not allow her to follow commands consistently, it was pretty clear to me that someone had worked with her on some basic obedience commands.• Deja did not urinate or defecate during our interactions.• I am not a breeder or judge, but Deja is a beautiful Doberman with a great coat, muscular nature, and a perfect face. She is a very attractive dog.Taking these observations into account, as well as the information provided by you, Alicia, here are my thoughts on Deja:• I/we have worked with dogs that are far worse, in terms of fear, anxiety, and nervousness, than Deja. However, from the information Alicia provided to me, the dog that I saw is clearly not the dog that was described to her from the breeder.• I cannot determine the cause of Deja’s fear and nervousness. It could be the result of a traumatic airplane ride, it could be environmental, it could be a lack of socialization, or it could be a combination of any/all/none of these factors.
• It is my opinion that Deja’s fear, anxiety, and nervousness will not go away with time alone. I feel that she needs to be interacted with in certain ways that can promote confidence, she needs to be able to rely on her obedience and function in times of stress, she needs to be taken to a variety of new locations and interact with new people on an ongoing basis, and more. These are all qualities that a good training program can provide.Based on my experience and interactions with Deja, she can make tremendous progress with the right training program. It will take changing up some of the ways we interact with her, it will take a lot of ongoing effort, and it will take some time, but it is possible.Thanks again. Sincerely,Paul

Again thanks for all you feedback. This has been emotional and frustrating to say the least. Last communication I had with Ms. Green was that she did not want the dog back but was only willing to refund half of my purchase price. I have yet to see anything or even get her records. That being said I've taken her to the vet for shots and testing for any diseases etc. she did have hookworms and another form of parasite which she is now being treated for. [emoji20]



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[MyBuddy]

I'm so sorry that you are going through this. More sorry for Deja. It's awful to be in a state of anxiety all the time. As your trainer said, it could be a number of reasons why she is in the state she's in. But it also sounds like there is a lot of hope. And a lot of work ahead. If the breeder is not taking her back, are you keeping her?

I got Buddy from a well respected breeder at 7 months old. He was a happy go lucky dog at her place. A dog cowering in the corner when we brought him home. Even in the car I could tell he was not at all comfortable. My husband had to carry him out of the car into the house! He wouldn't budge!

The good thing for both of us is neither seem to be a fear biter. I know Buddy was not. Not at all. That did worry me. Right from the very beginning with hubby having to practically drag him from the car. I was really worried Buddy would bite in fear. But he has ALWAYS been a sweetheart! But, like you, we had our work cut out for us. Well, it mostly fell on me, of course, because I was home with him the most.

It was months of work. Exposing him to a lot of things....NOT babying him........acting natural.....not coddling....giving treats at the right moments....giving treats to friends for him when they met him....teaching my husband how to pet under the chin instead of over his head, which made him cower (training hubby was the hardest part. )

I did a LOT of ignoring, while keeping a watch on him out of the corner of my eye! He started out being quite fearful of my husband and I thought perhaps he had little contact with men. (I believe the breeder was divorced) It was frustrating as hell trying to teach my husband and Buddy at the same time. I'll never forget my brain storm in doing what I did when my children were little............When he came home from work, I would run to the door all excited and say, "Daddy's home! Daddy's home!!!" And then have hubby BEND DOWN to his level and scratch him UNDER the chin. THAT worked! My excitement feed into Buddy and he soon was running to the door himself!

If I was working in the kitchen and banged pots and pans, Buddy would leave the room. I finally tethered him to me to keep him in the room and as gently as I could, went about my business as if I didn't have a wide eyed dog on the end of a leash. Ignoring is the key. If you are constantly saying, "Its ok, boy/girl" they perceive it as 'being afraid/cowering'' is the correct thing to be doing.

He also would not walk through our barns. SO much scary stuff in there and noisy too. I did the same tactic there. Walked on a leash and ignored. I made him face his fears but not in a forceful way. Just nonchalantly walked him through.

I could go on but I don't know if you are keeping her or not. I just wanted to say, "I've been there." Maybe not as extreme, but I still get it. It's a difficult situation, to be sure. And if I'm not mistaken you also have small children? Your time may be limited in terms of working with this pup. It can be done, but I realize the road ahead is going to take a lot of patience and dedication. I wish you the best!

 

[Dobs4ever]

Hopefully now that you have an evaluation the breeder will do the right thing and take the dog back as they are the ones who should deal with the problem I will say that in reading the evaluation as I stated before crating her would not solve the problem - this dog needs to go everywhere and just be flooded with new environments, sounds, people etc. I seriously doubt at her age that one plane ride would cause this serious of a reaction. Dogs with good socialization and good temperament bounce back. I am glad to see that at least she actually did have some training.
Getting an evaluation should help the situation. Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[FredC]

I seriously doubt at her age that one plane ride would cause this serious of a reaction.

Ditto, these things don't just happen at least not to such an extreme..
While i dont expect an easy fix, i can say with absolute certainty if this isn't dealt with soon you will be living a nightmare with a dog that can eventually become a huge liability.. I have a 7 year old adult male that is fear aggressive and i can tell you because of it the dog has never had more then a half a dozen pairs of hands ever pet him.. Its sad and unfair to the dog to have to live such an isolated life..

 

[shadash]

From everything I'm reading your dog sounds like an ideal therapy animal. Its much easier to build up a dog that's not aggressive from the start than to try and "calm" a dog that's aggressive.

But, it also sounds like the breeder did you no favors.

 

[Dobs4ever]

A dog that is scared of its shadow is a ideal therapy dog???? Did you really say that? Sorry I have to disagree.

 

[shadash]

Seriously how hard can it be to change the dog around? Therapy dogs are usually put into service around 2 years of age. I agree that for whatever reason the dog has fear issues but these are easy to overcome. It just takes a lot of work and socialization.

I'd have to see the dog in person to fully evaluate but it really doesn't sound like the worse I've ever seen.
[DOUBLEPOST=1425074149][/DOUBLEPOST]And since this is a doberman no matter what certain characteristics are going to be there around temperament.

 

[Ingrid H]

Seriously how hard can it be to change the dog around? Therapy dogs are usually put into service around 2 years of age. I agree that for whatever reason the dog has fear issues but these are easy to overcome. It just takes a lot of work and socialization.

I'd have to see the dog in person to fully evaluate but it really doesn't sound like the worse I've ever seen.
[DOUBLEPOST=1425074149][/DOUBLEPOST]And since this is a doberman no matter what certain characteristics are going to be there around temperament.

I don't think fear issues are easy to overcome at all and wouldn't do it again especially if I bought a puppy. If I saw this level of fear from a pup, I would think it was defective and want to return it. I have no idea about what you are talking about when you talk about "certain characteristics" being there. If the temperament is flawed, the "characteristics" aren't going to be there.