Future Of American Bred Dobermans

[DocReverto]

My issue with the total doberman is that from what I have seen. In most cases (with just a couple exceptions) when you truly try to mix everything together you water down the qualities and compound the negatives. We dont need a bunch of dobermans running around with crazy drives, and with their butts in their necks lol.

In order for you to reverse this cycle you would need to breed generations of dogs that excel in their own category to dogs that excel in the opposite. Not dogs that are mediocre in both. Its a tough problem with no real solution, but no matter how you cut it for todays day and age you would need slightly watered down puppies.

 

[DocReverto]

Great example of the type of dog that could be the "total" doberman. I have never met him personally, but I have met puppies from him, and I like the temperament quite a bit.

7th in breed history to get his IPOIII and his AKC Ch.
Chaos vom Koby Haus (too many titles to list)

I hope his temperment is equally as awesome as his babies. If so he would be the picture perfect dog for that "total" doberman.

 

[shadash]

I like that dogs ears. Kind of a medium + show crop combo.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Larry just got a Deacon son back that goes back to his first dog he got from me - Schatzi . Larry is very excited to be finally showing something he bred. It is 10 years before a new breeder can actually become established and able to show and have a track record dogs of their own breeding. Larry is very thrilled to have this dog back and start working him. Schatzi started him on this trail and we have had many many conversations through the years - then Linda got Portia and bred her to Gunner. I am very proud of all Larry has accomplished since when they first met me they had no interest in showing but Schatzi opened a whole new world for them and when I got involved with Schutzhund I encouraged Larry to change from AKC and the rest is history. They have been great ambassadors for the breed and great friends through the years.

 

[GennyB]

"This whole crap between working breeders and conformation breeders needs to stop."

Couldn't agree more! The problem is it won't. Not only do the 2 sides fight each other but they fight within their own circle. As proven by this thread, people like different things in a dog. All a breeder needs to do is breed the best dog they can and offer it. Let the buyers decide. They can't see the forest for the trees. Until the breeders unite and realize that their real fight is with the AR groups and not each other, everyone will lose.
While breeders are wasting their energy fighting each other, AR group have banned together in an organized fashion to win a ridiculous fight. No animal lover wants to see a dog abused. The problem is that through their efforts they have gotten out of control with their definition of abuse. The biggest problem with money and power, always gets out of control, no matter what side you are on.
The biggest problem with the AR whackos is they don't have a solution, they are only enabling the problems. They can't see that by supporting good breeders and educating potential dog owners to the value of it they will never truly win either. We will still shelters full of abandoned dogs, people that will still think it is ok to keep your dog intact and let it run the neighborhood and breeders that think it is ok to just put 2 dogs together and see what happens. Education is a long slow process, made longer and slower by never even starting.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Paint unfortunately if you read threads and how contradictory they are it is easy to see why new people think we are crazy. It only confuses the true issues and if you read we have too many in the dog fancy who are really ingrained in the AR philosophy.

The Doberman is a working breed - Conformation dogs have a poor reputation as far as temperament goes regardless of which side of the pond you are on and no one can deny that. If you are serious about a working dog that is respected then you go to the "over the top" ROFLOL dogs like Deacon who is Wendy Schmidt's breeding. Deacon was one strong working dog and it is heart breaking that he is gone. I hope Larry has great success with the son he got back. He deserves to show something out of his own breeding. Up to this point he has been showing dogs from me or Wendy. It is double exciting for him when it goes back to Schatzi that started him on this journey so he has some of both dogs that he trained and succeeded with.

It is a struggle to keep clubs going for working dogs because it is so much easier to go to an air conditioned bldg and just trot around a ring. Heck that doesn't even test a dogs stamina. What about dogs that were sick the first half of their lives???? Would that concern you if you were breeding for heatlh? The fact is we don't know - Both Deacon's parents lived to 10 - the easiest thing on earth is to say you are breeding for health but until you are breeding generations on dogs under your own kennel it is just a sales pitch. I can tell you how devastating it is because Larry called me and my heart goes out to him but hopefully something good will come out of it as now he has a dog out of his own breeding to work. That is the only way you can look at it and move forward. It is why people who do not understand breeding think you should wait til dogs are older but certainly that would present a problem in a small gene pool.

Everything we do is a 2 edged sword and for people who have never bred to come on and criticize any dog or program are digging a hole for themselves. Different strokes for different folks. I happen to enjoy both conformation and working. There are few of us out there who have worked to learn about it as it requires so much more dedication, time and money. ALL go into making a good dog or program.

Von can tell you this - we breed a litter and then we pray - One year creeps by and you thank your lucky stars all appear to be doing well, on to year 2 and you cross your fingers pray nothing pops up, WHEW you made it to three years...........and on it goes worrying about the sire and dam worrying about every puppy. Then breeding slaps you right in the face and you get a call that a puppy is sick - These are the times that define breeders - it is a long process to credibility and trashing folks because you might not like the breeding or sport their dogs do gets you know where because while you waste your time on someone else 10 people are probably trashing your program.

As far as the "crap" between working and showing itis the age old question ... should a working breed work???? If not then why have a working dog class? In the beginning back in the late 1800's when AKC and shows started it started from the field trialing dogs........The dog had to work first - How did we get so far off base???

 

[FredC]

I for one have little doubt the future of American Doberman Pinschers is a bright one.. At least in the short term.. We have a chance to make up some ground and get our collective shit together i hope we as a collective dont blow it.. I know i intend to take full advantage of the FCI standard change and and i also hope to build a collective of educated open/like minded breeders.. If you are not open minded you wont be welcome to participate.. I cant change whats done but i can work with it and use it to my favor..

 

[Dobs4ever]

I for one have little doubt the future of American Doberman Pinschers is a bright one.. At least in the short term.. We have a chance to make up some ground and get our collective shit together i hope we as a collective dont blow it.. I know i intend to take full advantage of the FCI standard change and and i also intend to build a collective of educated open minded breeders.. If you are not open minded you wont be welcome to participate..

Through the years you have shown yourself to always be honest, level headed and understanding. Wishing you much luck and success. I too believe in the future - Hopefully Ice can give us an update on how the breeders have continued since the IDC announcement against c/d. It is a small crack in the AR dam and then on top of the Scottish push to reinstate tail docking..................we have hope regardless of how slim.

 

[FredC]

“The less you associate with some people, the more your life will improve.
Any time you tolerate mediocrity in others, it increases your mediocrity. An
important attribute in successful people is their impatience with negative
thinking and negative acting people. As you grow, your associates will
change. Some of your friends will not want you to go on. They will want you
to stay where they are. Friends that don't help you climb will want you to
crawl. Your friends will stretch your vision or choke your dream. Those that
don't increase you will eventually decrease you.

Consider this:
Never receive counsel from unproductive people. Never discuss your problems
with someone incapable of contributing to the solution, because those who
never succeed themselves are always first to tell you how. Not everyone has
a right to speak into your life. You are certain to get the worst of the
bargain when you exchange ideas with the wrong person. Don't follow anyone
who's not going anywhere.

With some people you spend an evening: with others you invest it. Be careful
where you stop to inquire for directions along the road of life. Wise is the
person who fortifies his life with the right friendships. If you run with
wolves, you will learn how to howl. But, if you associate with eagles, you
will learn how to soar to great heights.
"A mirror reflects a man's face, but what he is really like is shown by the
kind of friends he chooses."

The simple but true fact of life is that you become like those with whom you
closely associate - for the good and the bad.

Note: Be not mistaken. This is applicable to family as well as friends.
Yes...do love, appreciate and be thankful for your family, for they will
always be your family no matter what. Just know that they are human first
and though they are family to you, they may be a friend to someone else and
will fit somewhere in the criteria above.

"In Prosperity Our Friends Know Us. In Adversity We Know Our friends."

"Never make someone a priority when you are only an option for them."
"If you are going to achieve excellence in big things,you develop the habit in little matters.
Excellence is not an exception, it is a prevailing attitude.."..”

― Colin Powell

 

[GennyB]

Paint unfortunately if you read threads and how contradictory they are it is easy to see why new people think we are crazy.

Um, I hate to be the one to tell you but if you are referring to breeders, a good percentage of you are. Not for a minute am I saying everyone, but OMG there some some that should just be ducked taped across the mouth...forever. I understand pride, but to be so quick to insult a dog from another kennel and to just trash other dogs is just simply insane. Like I said, people like different things in dogs. If a breeder does not breed for what I like, why would they be insulted because I chose a different breeder? Wouldn't/shouldn't you be happy I got the dog I wanted? Then take into consideration ALL breeders should be on the same team, the team of the breed of their choice, isn't that really just another word for insanity when they behave the way they do?

 

[Dobs4ever]

Paint you have to be a little crazy.

 

[GennyB]

Paint you have to be a little crazy.

Yup, we all are in one way or another. I'll still let you choose the kind of dog you like without trashing you though.
What I like about my "working dog" the most is he just looks so alive, almost electric. Then add in the fact that his drives caused me to have to step it up a notch to be the owner he needed. We both won!

 

[Dobs4ever]

Sorry Now that I read that it did not say what I was saying -
You have to be a little crazy to be a BREEDER. I was not saying you were crazy so sorry.

 

[Silent Dobe]

Ok, I'm not going through posting quotes. Most of this bantering is just that, banter.

Yes, I have titled my dog that you guys would have deemed my breeder a BYB on both of my dogs, Silence and Vex. They are my "ugly working dogs" as that has been stated with "malinois like drive" that no one apparently likes. However, I am quite happy my dog doesn't prance around and stand pretty for an old man or woman to tell me how my dogs LOOK. Personally, conformation is just ridiculous for me. The only place it has for me is in the Breed Survey (both UDC and ZTP) as it looks at WORKING conformation.

CRD, why couldn't the current dogs I have now not be sold to a police department or some other high-demand service??

Dogs of my breeding are NOT sold to pet homes. My mentor and I do not believe in it and know these dogs are not to be in JQ Public's hands. I feel I am preserving working heritage and guarding heritage as well as making a stable in-house dog. Perhaps I'll let the pet breeders breed the Goldens in Dobe bodies.

I do not share my opinion much on here about these subjects as I feel strongly on my opinions. I am not here to make waves, but CRD I believe you are headed into the wrong direction for our breed. If you want pretty pets, get into a different breed, please. This is not a personal attack on you, per say, but you are the loudest voice for sure on the subject, jamming your opinions down others' throats. I believe in a working dog only. Ugly and high-drive are for me.

My dogs may not make it in the beauty ring, but they are not bred for Show, they are bred to Go and they do just that. They are healthy as well.

I'm sorry if I come off abrasive, but I've had enough of "Showing and temperament tests are GOOD ENOUGH". No, it's not. Why are other breeds surpassing us in EVERY venue? Ask yourself that.

My 2 cents and I will not repost on this topic.

~Jen

 

[Gelcoater]

Ok, I'm not going through posting quotes. Most of this bantering is just that, banter.

Yes, I have titled my dog that you guys would have deemed my breeder a BYB on both of my dogs, Silence and Vex. They are my "ugly working dogs" as that has been stated with "malinois like drive" that no one apparently likes. However, I am quite happy my dog doesn't prance around and stand pretty for an old man or woman to tell me how my dogs LOOK. Personally, conformation is just ridiculous for me. The only place it has for me is in the Breed Survey (both UDC and ZTP) as it looks at WORKING conformation.

CRD, why couldn't the current dogs I have now not be sold to a police department or some other high-demand service??

Dogs of my breeding are NOT sold to pet homes. My mentor and I do not believe in it and know these dogs are not to be in JQ Public's hands. I feel I am preserving working heritage and guarding heritage as well as making a stable in-house dog. Perhaps I'll let the pet breeders breed the Goldens in Dobe bodies.

I do not share my opinion much on here about these subjects as I feel strongly on my opinions. I am not here to make waves, but CRD I believe you are headed into the wrong direction for our breed. If you want pretty pets, get into a different breed, please. This is not a personal attack on you, per say, but you are the loudest voice for sure on the subject, jamming your opinions down others' throats. I believe in a working dog only. Ugly and high-drive are for me.

My dogs may not make it in the beauty ring, but they are not bred for Show, they are bred to Go and they do just that. They are healthy as well.

I'm sorry if I come off abrasive, but I've had enough of "Showing and temperament tests are GOOD ENOUGH". No, it's not. Why are other breeds surpassing us in EVERY venue? Ask yourself that.

My 2 cents and I will not repost on this topic.

~Jen

I think your dogs are awesome.It might be why I tagged you hereAnd perfect example.
They're what the breed used to be and you explained it better than I could.
It's not that the demand for true working high drive dog isn't there.

 

[FredC]

It's not that the demand for true working high drive dog isn't there.

Agreed and the indicators are all here.. Most people choose Dobermans as a means of intimidation or in other words another form of protection) The best guarded secret in the breed is that they are not nearly as tough as they look (Generally Speaking). There is no doubt their reputation certainly precedes them, regardless of your definition of the perfect doberman.

 

[Dobs4ever]

If you want pretty pets, get into a different breed, please. This is not a personal attack on you, per say, but you are the loudest voice for sure on the subject, jamming your opinions down others' throats. I believe in a working dog only. Ugly and high-drive are for me.

Jen - so glad you joined in this discussion - it is not good for the dogs or the sport when anyone tries to jam their opinons down others' throats. Anything anyone does to train and show their dogs in any venue or club is important to the breed. It presents them in a good light and promotes better understanding or their true temperament and breeding.

It is one thing to have a strong opinion but when it turns personal it goes way outside the bounds of good moderation. It is sadder when their biggest brag is about trying to hurt a club or working folks and their dogs. How does that help the dogs???

Hope to see you at our upcoming trial!!! It is just around the corner.

 

[Rits]

I believe the saying that goes here is, Dobermans are not for everyone.


You see all these other working breeds - doing excellent at what they were bred to do, most (as far as I'm aware of) not having major health issues and rare to see in shelters. They must be doing something right.

 

[FredC]

Im torn between Conformation and Schutz.. On one hand Conformation is more up my alley in that i have a better understanding of what all is involved and have participated in the sport at a very minimal level.. Schutzhund is more my speed but is much harder to get into because the dog required to excel is harder to come across then a conformationally sound dog.. Im certain the demand for good working doberman pups would be high if the supply met the demand which today it does not.. Almost any dog can get into schutzhund (protection is only the final phase of the sport) it takes a particularly special one to excel and make the cut and receive a III..

 

[GennyB]

It's not that the demand for true working high drive dog isn't there.

I think that the demand is what the supply is right now. There are people that are willing to put in time and training and need the extra challenge of a high drive dog.

I believe the saying that goes here is, Dobermans are not for everyone.

As well as not all dobermans are for all dobe people. Everybody has there own taste. It's ok if you want a conformation dog, a working dog or even a pet. As long as you are a responsible owner, there is no abuse...who cares?? Just buy what you like and leave the next guy alone.

My only problem is when someone bashes me or my dog because of what I like.