White dobermans
- Thread starter Zeus19742008
- Start date
Hi Jonsie;
Good for you for adopting!! I think the thing is that with albinos there is a large percentage that do have problems because it's not as simple as just being white,there are serious health and temperment risks
because of the albinoism.I'm not sure but I don't think white shepards are albinos so there isn't the same effect on health.There is nothing wrong at all with rescuing a white,in fact I think it's admirable!!The problem is with breeders who purposely breed for albinos and sell them to uninformed people as a rare curiousity.There are certainly healthy albinos out there it's just the odds aren't as good for a long healthy life.I've read peoples' posts
claiming to have years experience with hundreds of "whites"without seeing any problems but if you search petfinder.com for rescue dobes you will almost certainly see blind whites and the rescue place we've gotten our last 2 dobes from always has alot of whites many of them not suitable because of health or personality issues for adoption.Again please don't think I'm critisising at all,I admire anyone who's adopted any dobe,especially a white!!
Good for you for adopting!! I think the thing is that with albinos there is a large percentage that do have problems because it's not as simple as just being white,there are serious health and temperment risks
because of the albinoism.I'm not sure but I don't think white shepards are albinos so there isn't the same effect on health.There is nothing wrong at all with rescuing a white,in fact I think it's admirable!!The problem is with breeders who purposely breed for albinos and sell them to uninformed people as a rare curiousity.There are certainly healthy albinos out there it's just the odds aren't as good for a long healthy life.I've read peoples' posts
claiming to have years experience with hundreds of "whites"without seeing any problems but if you search petfinder.com for rescue dobes you will almost certainly see blind whites and the rescue place we've gotten our last 2 dobes from always has alot of whites many of them not suitable because of health or personality issues for adoption.Again please don't think I'm critisising at all,I admire anyone who's adopted any dobe,especially a white!!
nc_dobemom
Novitiate
Exactly Jonsie.
I know people that have owned whites for 10+ years and never had any problems. I owned a white and she was just like my other Dobermans temperament wise. I've yet (in seven years of actively supporting the white dobermans) seen a blind white doberman or a deaf one..
The problems I have are 1) breeders breeding white to white. 2) Breeders labeling and selling whites as RARE.
jonsie
New Member
You don't have to purposely breed for the color anymore-the male seems to carry the gene that produces whites and will produce whites as well as blacks and reds. My girl came from a multicolored litter (her dam was black-no z factor, her sire was white). And noone said that hating the cold and wet was color related, my inference was she has enough sense to come in out of-some dogs don't.
Maybe Dobies become acclimated to the weather just like people??? I live in the South, and if it gets below 60 degrees, it is COLD to me!!! I take my Dobe to work with me every day, but if it is going to be in the 40's and no sunshine, I leave my pup at home to enjoy being inside instead of standing out in the cold and breezy weather...If it is going to be in the 50's or above, no breeze, and the sun is shining, then I don't mind if he enjoys running around and having fun!!!! I figure that Damien has about as much hair as I do, and I know when I am cold, so I won't subject him to temps that I can't stand...
I also know that I don't care for sleeping on the floor as it is too hard, and a bed is SO MUCH NICER, so I figure he is much more comfy on a bed too...sometimes he likes for us to sleep on the sofas, but he will change to the same sofa as me around 4am, and then I am VERY uncomfortable, because he is HUGE and outweighs me...but then, I am a mom that is owned by a Dobe...
And I used to get agitated by a small cats...silly me...now I am protected and layed on by a big ol' silly Dobie!!!! Ya gotta love it!!!!
I also know that I don't care for sleeping on the floor as it is too hard, and a bed is SO MUCH NICER, so I figure he is much more comfy on a bed too...sometimes he likes for us to sleep on the sofas, but he will change to the same sofa as me around 4am, and then I am VERY uncomfortable, because he is HUGE and outweighs me...but then, I am a mom that is owned by a Dobe...
And I used to get agitated by a small cats...silly me...now I am protected and layed on by a big ol' silly Dobie!!!! Ya gotta love it!!!!
In order to produce a white (albino) both dogs have to carry and pass the gene. Neither dog has to be visibly white. A dog with a single copy of the gene will appear as a standard color. When a pup gets a copy from both parents they will appear white. Those white pups can still produce what ever color is hidden by the white when they are bred with an accepted color dog.
If I am reading your post correctly
your girl is/was white
her sire white
her dam black not z factored
which is genetically impossible. The female in this case black would have to carry a single copy of the white gene (a single copy would not make her white in color) that when combined with the copy from the male gives some pups the required "one gene from each parent" to be visibly white. Whether the registration # is noted with a z or not thats simple genetic autosomal recessive inheritance.
And the cold remark was humor.
If I am reading your post correctly
your girl is/was white
her sire white
her dam black not z factored
which is genetically impossible. The female in this case black would have to carry a single copy of the white gene (a single copy would not make her white in color) that when combined with the copy from the male gives some pups the required "one gene from each parent" to be visibly white. Whether the registration # is noted with a z or not thats simple genetic autosomal recessive inheritance.
And the cold remark was humor.
nc_dobemom
Novitiate
What Silent is saying is true.
A z free black female bred to a white male will not produce white puppies. If that is truly the case then there is WAYYYY more studying that needs to be done with these dogs.
I bred my z free fawn female to a white male and in September she whelped five puppies; three reds, one black and one fawn (who was stillborn).
Heck even a dog with a WZ AKC number can be bred to a white and never produce a white...
Hi nc_dobemom;
I know there's many great "whites",loved by many great owners and I honestly admire you're passion for them! If you honestly haven't ever seen a blind white,I went to petfinder.com and searched for doberman and on the first page searching from my zipcode,was Frosty,a 1yr old blind albino male at Illinois Doberman Rescue.
Hey Mods??...I have an idea,this topic obviously is very hotly debated and there are strong feelings on both sides.Would it be possible to take an informative survey by sending an email something like this"Hi;We are a small web community of dedicated Dobe owners determined to provide information and support to Dobe people.We are hoping you could take a moment to share with us your opinions and experiences with any "white" dobes you've had contact with" to various Dobe rescue groups around the country?We could offer to either put a link on the site to their rescue or give them anonimity,their choice.
The rescue lady where we've gotten our last 2 from has rescued over 3000 Dobes and knows more about them than anyone else around,many here from Mi and Ohio know who I'm talking about.These type of people to me have the most credibility of anyone just by the number of Dobes they've seen and dealt with and their passion for the breed.
I don't know if there's trademark or legal ramifications,just an idea I had.
Thanks! Don
I know there's many great "whites",loved by many great owners and I honestly admire you're passion for them! If you honestly haven't ever seen a blind white,I went to petfinder.com and searched for doberman and on the first page searching from my zipcode,was Frosty,a 1yr old blind albino male at Illinois Doberman Rescue.
Hey Mods??...I have an idea,this topic obviously is very hotly debated and there are strong feelings on both sides.Would it be possible to take an informative survey by sending an email something like this"Hi;We are a small web community of dedicated Dobe owners determined to provide information and support to Dobe people.We are hoping you could take a moment to share with us your opinions and experiences with any "white" dobes you've had contact with" to various Dobe rescue groups around the country?We could offer to either put a link on the site to their rescue or give them anonimity,their choice.
The rescue lady where we've gotten our last 2 from has rescued over 3000 Dobes and knows more about them than anyone else around,many here from Mi and Ohio know who I'm talking about.These type of people to me have the most credibility of anyone just by the number of Dobes they've seen and dealt with and their passion for the breed.
I don't know if there's trademark or legal ramifications,just an idea I had.
Thanks! Don
DobieLvr
Novitiate
I "used" to believe this - until we got Ernie. He was laying in the snow today waiting for my husband to come back out and play. We had to remove his pool - he was laying in the icy water. But then, no brain no pain...lmao
nc_dobemom
Novitiate
Hi DoberDon, yes I am passionate about these dogs because I just have not seen the health issues the DPCA and others would want you to believe the whites are riddled with.
I've seen whites that were not standard at all (not counting being of an unallowed color) but I have also seen some that are comformationally gorgeous. Just as I've seen normal colored Dobermans that look hidieous.
I've had people say to me, 'How can you love this breed and support the white Dobermans?' I just can't understand the logic behind that question. I see a Doberman...be it black white or red..it's a Doberman to me.
Hi NC_dobemom;
I was getting into territory that was pushing the limits of my knowledge so I emailed my rescue lady and asked her opinion about whites.She was kind enough to share her experiences with me.
She has had about 200 whites in her rescue and I have to say her experiences were'nt what I was expecting.She said she's only had one blind white out of 200 which isn't what I expected,healthwise she said other than being light sensitive both in eyes causing poor eyesite and skin causing sunburn and cancer risk,she's noticed webbed feet but nothing else serious.When she got her first 3 in rescue a while back she had them tested extensively out of curiousity and said they all 3 had 1 small underdeveloped kidney and one overly large but they all lived to 13yrs.Her main concern is temperment.She has 6 whites right now but she's recently put down 2,1 for mean temper and 1 she couldn't stop from licking a leg to the point of not being able to heal the wounds it was causing itself.The thing I hadn't considered that she brought up was that she thinks most of the problems are more from inbreeding because the first white was Sheba in 1975 and she was bred to her sire so the gene pool is so small and inbred at this point.That makes sense to me.She also said she loves hers' dearly but would never buy one and doesn't really try to adopt them out and that she's had as many as 10 at a time and they tend to clog up her rescue.So in theory most of the problems could be bred out but I fear most of the people breeding for whites are more motivated in selling them as curiousities and I don't think you can get rid of the albino problems with light sensitivity in the eyes and skin so to me it seems like kind of a dead end.
I really don't care about "breed standards" I just want a healthy,longlived,intelligent dobe with a great personality and if someone came out with a purple brindle dobe,as long as it was at least as healthy and no more succeptable to DCM,VonW.,Wobblers,cancer etc and had the intelligence and personality of a dobe I'd say good for them!!
I just thought you might be interested in what I found from my "expert",Have a great week; Don
I was getting into territory that was pushing the limits of my knowledge so I emailed my rescue lady and asked her opinion about whites.She was kind enough to share her experiences with me.
She has had about 200 whites in her rescue and I have to say her experiences were'nt what I was expecting.She said she's only had one blind white out of 200 which isn't what I expected,healthwise she said other than being light sensitive both in eyes causing poor eyesite and skin causing sunburn and cancer risk,she's noticed webbed feet but nothing else serious.When she got her first 3 in rescue a while back she had them tested extensively out of curiousity and said they all 3 had 1 small underdeveloped kidney and one overly large but they all lived to 13yrs.Her main concern is temperment.She has 6 whites right now but she's recently put down 2,1 for mean temper and 1 she couldn't stop from licking a leg to the point of not being able to heal the wounds it was causing itself.The thing I hadn't considered that she brought up was that she thinks most of the problems are more from inbreeding because the first white was Sheba in 1975 and she was bred to her sire so the gene pool is so small and inbred at this point.That makes sense to me.She also said she loves hers' dearly but would never buy one and doesn't really try to adopt them out and that she's had as many as 10 at a time and they tend to clog up her rescue.So in theory most of the problems could be bred out but I fear most of the people breeding for whites are more motivated in selling them as curiousities and I don't think you can get rid of the albino problems with light sensitivity in the eyes and skin so to me it seems like kind of a dead end.
I really don't care about "breed standards" I just want a healthy,longlived,intelligent dobe with a great personality and if someone came out with a purple brindle dobe,as long as it was at least as healthy and no more succeptable to DCM,VonW.,Wobblers,cancer etc and had the intelligence and personality of a dobe I'd say good for them!!
I just thought you might be interested in what I found from my "expert",Have a great week; Don
Eight generations back from my pup, there is ONE white in his lineage (unfortunately that one white was from several), but from then on, everthing has been black/rust or red/rust, and a few blues...
Temperment wise, I think he is right up there with the best...and his markings are some of the best I have ever seen...crisp, sharp, symetrical...but he is still a Z-factor Dobie...and damn, I hate that for him, and for me...he does have a couple of small issues...he has rust appearing at the base of the back of his ears (I have NEVER seen that in a black Dobe), and he has small black dots on his toes...
But I cannot ask for a better SIT. or DOWN, he is a proud Dobe...he holds his stance so well...but intelligence is one of his better qualities!!! He does pay attention, and knows NEVER to get out of the car without me holding his leash (he taught himself that one)...
I am fearful that the breeders have let us down in what they are producing for the breed...and I really don't know how we can change this at this point...
Does anyone have the answer???
Temperment wise, I think he is right up there with the best...and his markings are some of the best I have ever seen...crisp, sharp, symetrical...but he is still a Z-factor Dobie...and damn, I hate that for him, and for me...he does have a couple of small issues...he has rust appearing at the base of the back of his ears (I have NEVER seen that in a black Dobe), and he has small black dots on his toes...
But I cannot ask for a better SIT. or DOWN, he is a proud Dobe...he holds his stance so well...but intelligence is one of his better qualities!!! He does pay attention, and knows NEVER to get out of the car without me holding his leash (he taught himself that one)...
I am fearful that the breeders have let us down in what they are producing for the breed...and I really don't know how we can change this at this point...
Does anyone have the answer???
Miller Dobes
Novitiate
So what this means is that you are disregarding all the research on "albinos" in humans and other mammals? In other words, you don't believe that white dobermans are a mutation that carrier other problems, like other mammals and humans?
I agree the doberman hasn't had many to do a extensive study....but there has been studies done. Albinos have many more issues with health, other than eyes and skin. To breed them, isn't wanting to improve......it is wanting to improve what is a mutation. That's just my opinion and it isn't just the color.
Becky
I agree the doberman hasn't had many to do a extensive study....but there has been studies done. Albinos have many more issues with health, other than eyes and skin. To breed them, isn't wanting to improve......it is wanting to improve what is a mutation. That's just my opinion and it isn't just the color.
Becky
Panama
Hot Topics Subscriber
I do not foresee the DPCA changing their view on Whites.
I have asked MANY people with a Z factored Conformation allowed color, why they don't try to show their Dobes. If they are so proud of what they are producing and feel they are doing the breed justice (breeding for the betterment of the breed) then why aren't they out there TRYING to show their so called dedicated efforts? If they want their efforts recognized, they need to get out there. (I'm sure some have tried, somewhere, but I can't find any actual record of such).
Are they afraid that big "WZ" will stick out like a sore thumb in the catalog?
Again, if they are so proud or confident their dogs are top notch, just as conformationally correct as any other Dobe out there, what others think shouldn't bother them so much.
Panama
Hot Topics Subscriber
You are obviously having trouble understanding genetics.
If you breed a Z factored female to a White male, there will be whites produced as well as colors. Each pup gets 1 gene from each parent (DNA makeup). The Z factored female will pass the white gene to a percent of that litter. It may only be 1 or 2 out of a litter of 8, but she will still pass the white gene along. With the male having no other gene but white, two white gene (one from each parent) will produce a white pup.
This is actually incorrect.
Depending on how many generations of only color dogs are behind the z factored dog, the z may or may not actually carry a single copy of the z gene. If the z is from a albino x color dog then all pups have to carry one copy of the z gene from the albino parent.
When that normal color dog who has one z gene is bred to a non z dog, statistically half the pups will get the z gene from the z parent, half will not.
All of those pups will carry the z designation whether they carry the gene or not because there is no way currently to determine which do or do not carry the z gene. The z registration is to alert that the gene is behind the dog and may be carried by the dog. With no test, we simply can not tell.
The problem is that the z gene *can* be passed down through multiple generations without showing in phenotype if they are only bred to color dogs. Even after several generations of only producing color pups, the gene can still be hidden. There is no way to tell and if that dog does carry even one copy of the gene and is bred to an albino, yes the odds are statistically that some albino pups will be produced. If the dog is z designated but does not carry the gene then no albino pups will be produced.
Nature does not always make it easy, and statistics work across a group better than in individual litters. Think about that statistically the sex should be 50/50 but isn't always, or that dilution should be 50/50 if one parent carries the gene genotypically and one parent is dilute.
My own opinion doesn't matter as to whether they should be bred or not, my point is on the genetics. The gene can remain hidden which is the purpose of the z designation.
Depending on how many generations of only color dogs are behind the z factored dog, the z may or may not actually carry a single copy of the z gene. If the z is from a albino x color dog then all pups have to carry one copy of the z gene from the albino parent.
When that normal color dog who has one z gene is bred to a non z dog, statistically half the pups will get the z gene from the z parent, half will not.
All of those pups will carry the z designation whether they carry the gene or not because there is no way currently to determine which do or do not carry the z gene. The z registration is to alert that the gene is behind the dog and may be carried by the dog. With no test, we simply can not tell.
The problem is that the z gene *can* be passed down through multiple generations without showing in phenotype if they are only bred to color dogs. Even after several generations of only producing color pups, the gene can still be hidden. There is no way to tell and if that dog does carry even one copy of the gene and is bred to an albino, yes the odds are statistically that some albino pups will be produced. If the dog is z designated but does not carry the gene then no albino pups will be produced.
Nature does not always make it easy, and statistics work across a group better than in individual litters. Think about that statistically the sex should be 50/50 but isn't always, or that dilution should be 50/50 if one parent carries the gene genotypically and one parent is dilute.
My own opinion doesn't matter as to whether they should be bred or not, my point is on the genetics. The gene can remain hidden which is the purpose of the z designation.
Miller Dobes
Novitiate
There are a few people on the forum that are promoting the breeding of albinos and Z factored. They call them "top quality," in websites and really don't care what the research is on abinoism. It's all about promoting their dogs or puppies. Keep posting so that this forum remains educational for those that want Science. In addition, they don't test for anything.
And for those with rescues an albino or Z factored dog or any dog, my hats off to you. You are the heros that have given the dogs a chance of a good home. You spay and neuter those dogs or you obtain the dog from a ethical rescue that does that for you. You are try to fix what others intentional create and take no responsibility for. You are the best of the best. And amazingly, you test for things that will affect your dogs health. It's all about dedication and ethics.
Glad you joined us Panama.
Becky
It's not in my nature to be judgemental,but I have to say when you look at the facts and after asking someone who's rescued over 3000 dobes and 200 albinos,I don't see any ethical reason for breeding for "whites",there are too many health and temperment risks that are inseperable from albinism.I also know there are great "whites" out there but I don't think they should be bought,only gotten from rescue! I don't think it's morally right for anyone to put false info on an informative doberman site that could cause a novice to purchase an albino from an unethical breeder
Miller Dobes
Novitiate
The answer is simple. All you can control is your own dogs and the puppies your produce. If Science says your dogs have problems. Rescues have documented they have problems. Have them fixed and know you did what is ethical for the breed. As you can see from those that choose to ignore the facts, there are those on the list that are here to promote the albino doberman. All we can do is know they are marked with a Z so that ethical breeders can avoid the irresponsible owners and making sure their dogs aren't bred to dogs that will not improve the breed.
If you don't spay and neuter, for whatever reason. You run the risk of inferior puppies that many times are the rescues we all pay for and see in sad homes. It's all about taking care of your own business and making sure. If everyone took care of their dogs and made sure they were tested, we would be better off as a breed. There will always be those that are in it for the money. It is documented history of the albinos.
So if I'm blunt, so what. I'm telling the truth so that another new owner doesn't fall for the misinformation that is promoted by albino breeders. This is a no brainer. It isn't about anyone personally but it is about being ethical and loving this breed.
Becky
DobieLvr
Novitiate
I can say one thing - I certainly wish this much energy was put into getting rid of vW and the serious health issues that truly affect the Doberman's in the US. If a breeder is willing to breed a vW dog simply because it is an "accepted" color ?? Just exactly how ethical is that? I would love to see DPCA require - since it was mentioned on another thread, that the dogs that are "shown" are our BREEDING stock - be tested to be clear and healthy before being given a title or shown. Now there is a worthy cause...
