Litter Dilemma

[StateOfMine]

I will keep this as short and sweet as I can (but I'm bad at it). After wanting a doberman for 26 years (I'm 32) I finally have the opportunity to pick from a two different litters, but there is a dilemma here.

I was #2 in line for a male puppy. The litter that I was waiting for was born on my birthday which I thought was cool. Hours go by and I get an update from the breeder: Only 1 male... and the person ahead of me on the waiting list wants this male. Big Sad. Another litter is due in 3 days and the mom of this litter is the sister of the previous mom that I picked. She is a little bit smaller, a little less red... and is slightly less healthy than her sister. The father is the same for both litters. The breeder said I was welcome to pick a female pup from the original mother I wanted puppies from, or I can wait to see if there are males from her sister and I would get first pick.

Next day comes... and the breeder messages me again. Apparently the person ahead of me that has claim to the 1 male pup told her that unless the pup is 100% clear of all genetic problems (a 12.5% chance with the way the genetics are for the mom and dad) he doesn't want him. He intended to use him for breeding and will only be happy with a genetically clear dog. So basically... the pup is more than likely going to be mine if I wanted him.

Here is the problem.

I am looking for certain personality traits that will not be visible until the pup is at least 6 weeks old. I intended to have the breeder test for those, and she agreed, but she would like for me to decide at least which litter I am picking from so that people behind me on the waiting list will know what is still available for them. This is understandable and fair. Well... I am gambling either way. I could say I will stick with the original litter I picked (We will call this Mother A) or I can say that after her sister (Mother B) has her litter and I have many options for the males I can tell her I intend to choose from that one.


Mother A

• Clear for DCM 1 and DCM 2
• Carrier for vWD

Mother B

• Clear for DCM 1
• Carrier for DCM 2
• Carrier for vWD

The Father

• Clear for DCM 1
• Carrier for DCM 2
• Carrier for vWD

So what this means according to the breeder:


Pups from Mother A

• 100% Clear of DCM 1
• 50% chance Clear of DCM 2, 50% chance Carrier of DCM 2
• 25% chance Clear of vWD, 50% chance Carrier of vWD, 25% chance Affected and will have vWD

Pups from Mother B

• 100% Clear of DCM 1
• 25% chance Clear of DCM 2, 50% chance Carrier of DCM 2, 25% chance Affected and is at an increased risk for DCM
• 25% chance Clear of vWD, 50% chance Carrier of vWD, 25% chance Affected and will have vWD

So the difference in health between the two mothers isn't terribly drastic, but it is enough to make me ponder my options.


I definitely only have 1 option for a male from the healthier mom and if I test him at 7 weeks and he doesn't test well... I'm basically stuck with him because the male dogs in these litters get claimed very very fast (I am one of the few buyers that want to see the dog's personality first I guess...). So his health is definitely going to be better, but because he is my only option I am taking a very big chance with his personality traits. I know environment affects a dog's personality a fair amount, but what I am testing for is genetic and nurture and training can't change that (nerves).

However, lets say Mother B has 4 males or so. I get first pick. I now have options for when I am testing for those personality traits. However, I am now gambling health a bit. With Mother A, very likely to have a genetically more clear dog, but if that dog is a big fat coward... I have no options and I have to take him home, basically. With Mother B, I have a higher chance of getting the personality I am looking for and a pup with strong nerves (basically makes getting him into bite sports or protection work possible, both of which I am interested in).

I do have a 3rd option, which would be to just pick a female from Mother A, and I might end up doing that. I prefer a male because they are more eager to please whereas females are more independent, males bond to the entire household and females tend to bond to only 1 person (and I guarantee that person will be my husband because I am the one that put forth the effort, money and research so of course she won't pick me

), I also don't want to deal with the heat cycles, the mess and the overall bitchiness that come with having a female. Yes, I intend to spay/neuter, but not until the dog is at least 18 months old for the health benefits of the hormones (google it if you don't know and want to, it would be a lot to explain here). Still, it is very possible I may pick a female instead, but it wouldn't be my first choice.

Any experienced doberman owners, and especially anyone who has experience selecting pups for bite sports or personal protection, please weigh in. If I chose a female pup from the healthier mom, what am I missing out on, or gaining? I know all dogs are individuals with their own personalities, but there has to be a reason almost all PPDs and dogs in bite sports are male. Can anyone tell me why?

 

[fatiguedsuki]

I mean, I personally would be skeptical of a breeder that pairs two dogs that are both carriers of vWD's. It's not like Dobermans are such a healthy breed already that they need a health problem. If you're interested in bite work or protection, it's important to have a dog that's physically sound (which genetics often play a role in).

Next day comes... and the breeder messages me again. Apparently the person ahead of me that has claim to the 1 male pup told her that unless the pup is 100% clear of all genetic problems (a 12.5% chance with the way the genetics are for the mom and dad) he doesn't want him. He intended to use him for breeding and will only be happy with a genetically clear dog. So basically... the pup is more than likely going to be mine if I wanted him.

I can understand why it may not seem concerning that the person ahead of you on the wait list would pass on a male that carries vWD if he were to be interested in the genetics for breeding, but it might be an indication on where the breeder's head is involving the health of the puppy...especially since this breed is already so prone to DCM that the last thing some people would want is a dog that is Affected by vWD. Does she do Holter and/or EKG tests annually on her breeding dogs? Maybe it wouldn't bother you if the male was Affected? I would think that with the high-intensity sports you are looking at, a Dobe being Affected would be devastating, even at the 25% chance.

Does the breeder check elbows and hips? Do you know if the parents have been screened for DNA Degenerative Myelopathy? And finally-is there any legally binding contract that gives you the ability for a vet of your choosing to do a health check and in the case that the puppy has a problem, you maintain the right to return your puppy? Or is there any health warranty?

I do have a 3rd option, which would be to just pick a female from Mother A, and I might end up doing that. I prefer a male because they are more eager to please whereas females are more independent, males bond to the entire household and females tend to bond to only 1 person (and I guarantee that person will be my husband because I am the one that put forth the effort, money and research so of course she won't pick me

), I also don't want to deal with the heat cycles, the mess and the overall bitchiness that come with having a female. Yes, I intend to spay/neuter, but not until the dog is at least 18 months old for the health benefits of the hormones (google it if you don't know and want to, it would be a lot to explain here). Still, it is very possible I may pick a female instead, but it wouldn't be my first choice.

Any experienced doberman owners, and especially anyone who has experience selecting pups for bite sports or personal protection, please weigh in. If I chose a female pup from the healthier mom, what am I missing out on, or gaining? I know all dogs are individuals with their own personalities, but there has to be a reason almost all PPDs and dogs in bite sports are male. Can anyone tell me why?

It does sound like you are pretty confident you will get a puppy from one of these litters. In that case, I will be speaking of male v.s. female stereotypes: males put on more weight than the females do. The females make good personal protection dogs v.s. the males are great at protecting property. Males have a few inches on the females in height. Females mature faster. You might pay more for a male because they are in higher demand (probably due to the weight difference). Females are more serious and intense. Males might be more stubborn, more goofy, and more hyper in puppy years. I'm assuming these are European males and females you are considering buying?

If I had to pick, and I mean gun-to-my-head HAD to pick, I would choose a puppy from Mother A. If you get a puppy from Mother B and he/she ends up Affected by vWD AND Affected by DCM (genetically more likely to be because both parents carry DCM 2), you'll have a dog that might be great until his/her genetics catch up with him, but if they do, the vet bills + emotional turmoil of owning that dog would be horrible. There are totally people that would disagree with me, but this is what I stand by. I just don't think it's worth the potential risk.

Dobermans are naturally pretty protective dogs (especially European Dobes). To some degree, a breeder can determine how high-drive the pups will be based off the parents. If Mother A and The Father have done any sort of high-drive activities, you'll likely end up with a puppy that is of medium-to-high-drive. Likely

I have a female Dobe, and she's the best (I'm biased, but still). She stays close outside when off her leash and if I go running in one direction, she's right behind me. We have other male dogs in the house, so potty-training a male would have been harder to enforce after hormones kicked in. She won't ever be as inclined to participate in territorial marking like a male might be. My girl is dramatic about some things, but when I just ignore or act indifferent to something that she is trying to make a big deal out of, she quickly realizes that it's not actually a big deal. Also, about that favorite-person thing: it doesn't exist with mine. She acted really bonded to me the first couple days she came home, but then she warmed up to everyone. I don't know if it's just because she's young (almost six months), but she gets all wiggly whenever someone in my family wants to pet her. Around strangers, she is more unwilling to be pet, but not after she's been around them for a while. She is definitely calmer around me, but that's because I'm the one who's training her and she sees a lot more of me than anyone else in my family. Equally, there are people who love their male Dobermans for the exact same/polar opposite reasons. They really are all individuals, which makes this whole puppy-picking harder.

Best of luck!!

 

[StateOfMine]

I mean, I personally would be skeptical of a breeder that pairs two dogs that are both carriers of vWD's. It's not like Dobermans are such a healthy breed already that they need a health problem. If you're interested in bite work or protection, it's important to have a dog that's physically sound (which genetics often play a role in).



I can understand why it may not seem concerning that the person ahead of you on the wait list would pass on a male that carries vWD if he were to be interested in the genetics for breeding, but it might be an indication on where the breeder's head is involving the health of the puppy...especially since this breed is already so prone to DCM that the last thing some people would want is a dog that is Affected by vWD. Does she do Holter and/or EKG tests annually on her breeding dogs? Maybe it wouldn't bother you if the male was Affected? I would think that with the high-intensity sports you are looking at, a Dobe being Affected would be devastating, even at the 25% chance.

Does the breeder check elbows and hips? Do you know if the parents have been screened for DNA Degenerative Myelopathy? And finally-is there any legally binding contract that gives you the ability for a vet of your choosing to do a health check and in the case that the puppy has a problem, you maintain the right to return your puppy? Or is there any health warranty?



It does sound like you are pretty confident you will get a puppy from one of these litters. In that case, I will be speaking of male v.s. female stereotypes: males put on more weight than the females do. The females make good personal protection dogs v.s. the males are great at protecting property. Males have a few inches on the females in height. Females mature faster. You might pay more for a male because they are in higher demand (probably due to the weight difference). Females are more serious and intense. Males might be more stubborn, more goofy, and more hyper in puppy years. I'm assuming these are European males and females you are considering buying?

If I had to pick, and I mean gun-to-my-head HAD to pick, I would choose a puppy from Mother A. If you get a puppy from Mother B and he/she ends up Affected by vWD AND Affected by DCM (genetically more likely to be because both parents carry DCM 2), you'll have a dog that might be great until his/her genetics catch up with him, but if they do, the vet bills + emotional turmoil of owning that dog would be horrible. There are totally people that would disagree with me, but this is what I stand by. I just don't think it's worth the potential risk.

Dobermans are naturally pretty protective dogs (especially European Dobes). To some degree, a breeder can determine how high-drive the pups will be based off the parents. If Mother A and The Father have done any sort of high-drive activities, you'll likely end up with a puppy that is of medium-to-high-drive. Likely

I have a female Dobe, and she's the best (I'm biased, but still). She stays close outside when off her leash and if I go running in one direction, she's right behind me. We have other male dogs in the house, so potty-training a male would have been harder to enforce after hormones kicked in. She won't ever be as inclined to participate in territorial marking like a male might be. My girl is dramatic about some things, but when I just ignore or act indifferent to something that she is trying to make a big deal out of, she quickly realizes that it's not actually a big deal. Also, about that favorite-person thing: it doesn't exist with mine. She acted really bonded to me the first couple days she came home, but then she warmed up to everyone. I don't know if it's just because she's young (almost six months), but she gets all wiggly whenever someone in my family wants to pet her. Around strangers, she is more unwilling to be pet, but not after she's been around them for a while. She is definitely calmer around me, but that's because I'm the one who's training her and she sees a lot more of me than anyone else in my family. Equally, there are people who love their male Dobermans for the exact same/polar opposite reasons. They really are all individuals, which makes this whole puppy-picking harder.

Best of luck!!

This breeder originally had a male that was clear of all DCM and vWD genes. Right as the female I chose (Mother A) went into heat, he died suddenly at 6 years old. They didn't breed (maybe I dodged a bullet? Who knows.). I was ready to ask the breeder for a refund and was going to look elsewhere, devastated and thinking it was over. She then contacted me and said that she found a stud dog, but it would take a few weeks to get his DNA test results. Since Mother A and Mother B were basically in heat and it was "go time", she bred them. Probably a backyard breeder move, I know, but it wasn't her fault that her male died and I admit, a big part of me sympathized (and probably an even bigger part of me was struggling with the emotional whiplash at the time).


The individual that owned the stud dog does annual echo and holter tests, but hadn't done genetic testing. His reason was that genetics only suggested risk, not what would actually happen, and preferred to monitor his dog a different way. I personally don't know exactly how I feel about that approach. I guess he also knew his dog was either clear for vWD or a carrier based on the testing from his dog's parents.

Breeder does check for elbows and hips and so does the owner of the stud. All are excellent, good or normal. Parents are clear of DM and all other health issues with the exception of those mentioned above. My puppy contract does state that if I take the puppy to a vet of my choosing within 48 hours of purchase and the vet finds anything life threatening, she will give me a replacement puppy of equal value, free of charge.


An affected puppy would be a huge turn off for me, but a carrier status shouldn't matter if I have no intention to breed, right? Definitely and please enlighten me if I am wrong.

These dogs are not 100% euros. Both mothers are 75% european and 25% american lines. The emergency stud that she found is 100% american show lines, but his mother had a WAC in her titles. I am hoping that is an indication of strong nerves and that the european blood will help with that. Guess we'll see.


I am still curious as to why the world of bite sports has mostly male dogs, if females are better for protection? I'm not saying you're wrong, just curious. And you're right. I probably should stick with Mother A. I would like to read others' opinions too but I don't disagree with you. I had my heart set on a male for the better part of a year so "switching gears" on my decision is proving to be very challenging.

 

[Doberman Gang]

Who is the breeder and what are the pedigrees of these dogs. Just from what I have read above, I would be looking elsewhere. If you are wanting a Doberman for bitesport genetics should be another important aspect gir your decision. I personally would not get a dog out of either of those breedings. My suggestion would be to continue you search elsewhere.

 

[StateOfMine]

Who is the breeder and what are the pedigrees of these dogs. Just from what I have read above, I would be looking elsewhere. If you are wanting a Doberman for bitesport genetics should be another important aspect gir your decision. I personally would not get a dog out of either of those breedings. My suggestion would be to continue you search elsewhere.

I often read/hear people suggesting other people to "look elsewhere" without any real direction or advice on where "elsewhere" might be. Would you care to point me to a breeder that you'd recommend? If not, I'd at least like my questions and concerns above addressed at the very least if you're taking time out of your day to reply to my threads. Every time someone on a forum tells someone who has real concerns and struggles to "look elsewhere" without direction a backyard breeder or puppy mill makes a sale.

 

[Ravenbird]

I often read/hear people suggesting other people to "look elsewhere" without any real direction or advice on where "elsewhere" might be. Would you care to point me to a breeder that you'd recommend? If not, I'd at least like my questions and concerns above addressed at the very least if you're taking time out of your day to reply to my threads. Every time someone on a forum tells someone who has real concerns and struggles to "look elsewhere" without direction a backyard breeder or puppy mill makes a sale.

Go to UDC (United Doberman Club) website for breeder lists. These breeders are very intent on working Dobermans and trying to control health issues. Even if there aren't litters advertised, look at their website or FB pages and look at what they do with their dogs!

Some breeders may disagree, but I would never consider a carrier to carrier giving 25% chance of affected vWD in the litter. Carrier is not a problem, and breeding carriers to clears is not a problem. You only create affected dogs by breeding carrier to carrier (or worse yet breeding an affected dog). Why cause a disease to rear it's ugly head in some innocent puppy/new owners life? You CAN test puppies genetically at any age, it's just a cheek swab, if you can trust the breeder to not mix up the collar colors. Seems like that's what the First in line for male would have requested.

DCM is a whole different ballgame because there is no genetic markers that guarantees the dog will or won't get DCM. The two markers available are associated with DCM, but basically mean very little. Completely clear dogs can get DCM and dogs with both markers can live without ever getting DCM. It's only helpful to breeders to not double up on carriers. Both parents should have a 24 hour Holter and an Echo within a year of breeding to prove that they do not currently show signs of DCM - it's the best we can do right now, but it's still not fool proof. The worst thing I see with your breeder is that he/she doesn't understand that it doesn't work like vWD disease or Black vs Red color. If the dog that just died at age 6 died of "sudden death" that is also heart related, though not technically DCM, it is considered to be heritable.

Health aside, if neither of these parents are titled in bite work sports, you are limiting your chances of getting a dog who will stand up to the tests in bite sports. As for male/females? I've never owned a male dog, so I can't say, but I will say my dogs mother achieved the highest level with IGP3, but you are right, fewer females reach the top.

It sounds like you are doing SO much right and trying hard to do the right thing! Please consider all your options. When I decided to get a puppy I knew I wanted a black female, working lines for bite sports. I was approved for a litter and then only 2 females were born, which were reserved before me. I had dibs on the next litter, but the breeding didn't take. Next I was approved for a litter and just before the down payment was due, I bowed out due to "just something didn't feel right". Then I was offered a male puppy from a breeder that fit all my hearts desire except not female. By this time puppy fever in me was raging, but after a few days on the fence I said no thank you. I knew what I wanted and was going to wait. Now my girl is almost 4 and I can't imagine any other dog for me. If you doubt anything at all with this breeder, listen to your inner self. I'm just saying this to assure you that a. it's not always an easy trip to getting the puppy you want and b. it's OK to back out if you are not sure about something.

I wish you the best no matter what you decide.

 

[Cferg]

What are you looking for temperment and drive wise in a dog? You’ve stated your requirements for health. But the best way to find a dog that will have the drive to do the things that you desire to do is, find a breeder that produces that. So what is it that you’re looking for exactly? If you can tell us what exactly you want in your dog maybe some can point you in the right direction.

And look for breedings with titles behind their name. Because a breeder telling you they “can” do bite sports or PP without titles, is like telling you the pups will be healthy without any actual testing being done. Especially if you haven’t spent significant time around the two dogs being bred.

 

[Doberman Gang]

What are you looking for temperment and drive wise in a dog? You’ve stated your requirements for health. But the best way to find a dog that will have the drive to do the things that you desire to do is, find a breeder that produces that. So what is it that you’re looking for exactly? If you can tell us what exactly you want in your dog maybe some can point you in the right direction.

And look for breedings with titles behind their name. Because a breeder telling you they “can” do bite sports or PP without titles, is like telling you the pups will be healthy without any actual testing being done. Especially if you haven’t spent significant time around the two dogs being bred.

I would start with these breeders.
Masaya’s Doberman’s
Benchmark Dobermanns
Von Schwartz Dobermanns
Landgraf if she is still breeding.
Those would be a good start.
I know Savannah at Benchmark has puppies in the ground and so does Brandi at Masaya’s

 

[Rits]

Are those the only health tests the breeder has done? I hope not!

vWD is a problem when they are clinically affected, which is not as common in dobermans. 60% of dobermans are carriers of vWD so, not ever breeding or creating an affected is a nice thought but the gene pool is far too small. Dobermans also have the mildest form of vWD compared to other breeds who are more known to be clinically affected.

DCM1 and 2 tests are just ways to identify 2 known markers out of many unknown markers. There have been plenty of those that tested clear for both that die of DCM and those that carry 1 or 2 copies never passing of DCM so there is obviously some other marker(s) out there that says "yes/no" for DCM.

Besides those concerns, I'll leave you with this: If you really like a breeding and a male is not available, don't settle for a breeding you don't like as much, just to get the gender (or even color) you want. I was in the same situation with my first girl. I had been waiting for a doberman for 10+ years and I really wanted a male. I liked this breeding and turns out, there weren't any males for me...but there was a nice black and rust female if I was interested. Well, my gut told me to go for it. I don't ever regret that decision and it was honestly the best decision I ever made. Now my sport puppy has pulled me into not only every sport imagined (and more if money and time wasn't a limitation) but she turned out to be incredibly nice for conformation and shes on the hunt for her majors to finish her CH. I've made so many wonderful connections because of her. She's also my shadow and deeply in tune with me, she tasks for me untrained. I believe she was truly meant for me. Trust your gut!

 

[Panama]

I personally would be skeptical of a breeder that pairs two dogs that are both carriers of vWD's.

Personally (and just my opinion), by not breeding vWD Carrier to Carrier we make the cone/bottle neck even smaller.

24 yrs ago, I breed Carrier to Carrier, tested the entire litter of 10, and results came back with 6 Clears, 3 Carriers & 1 Affected. So the % they give are just an estimate of averages. Out of that litter, 1 carrier lived to 12 and the affected pup lived to 13 and the rest lived 7-10 yrs being taken by Cancer or something else that we can't test for... I would never breed Carrier to Affected or Affected to Affected.

jmo

 

[Oh Little Oji]

If you are going to go with that breeder, and one of those two litters, I personally would opt for the chance to choose based on temperament. My biggest fear in getting a pup is winding up with one that is fearful (wimp, skittish, shy), so I would err on the side of temperament.

The testing that breeder is doing sounds like a DNA test, which is not really full health testing. As probably stated above, the DCM markers are not very conclusive as to whether a dog will be affected by the disease. There is just too much scientists don't know.

Good question as to why most bite sports and personal protection dogs seem to be males. I'd say the same for police dogs and military dogs. I wonder if one aspect of it is that it is useful to keep the dogs intact in order to allow them to really benefit from those hormones, but keeping a female intact involves dealing with the heats, and that would be disruptive to the work they have to do. For me, since the Dobe is not really that large a breed, I prefer males. A dog that is 80 - 90 lbs. (or even lighter when it comes to most working-line Dobes) is actually not as heavy as I personally want; but that is how heavy the males usually are. For me, a 60 - 65 lb. dog is not large enough for my security needs. Yes, yes, I know Mals are about that small and they excel, but I've seen men catch a Mal on the sleeve while running and not even break stride, and continue to just carry the dog along the field.

 

[LifeofRubie]

I KNOW it's hard to wait when you're ready but if something doesn't feel right, it's much better to walk away. I also know the thoughts of, "Well this dog needs a home, anyway" creep in. Don't listen. A well bred puppy isn't cheap but, often times, neither is a BYB puppy as they want to give the illusion of well bred. AKC papers do not a well-bred dog make. If you're going pay that much for a dog, it should be the dog of your dreams with a lifetime of support from the breeder!

 

[fatiguedsuki]

This breeder originally had a male that was clear of all DCM and vWD genes. Right as the female I chose (Mother A) went into heat, he died suddenly at 6 years old. They didn't breed (maybe I dodged a bullet? Who knows.). I was ready to ask the breeder for a refund and was going to look elsewhere, devastated and thinking it was over. She then contacted me and said that she found a stud dog, but it would take a few weeks to get his DNA test results. Since Mother A and Mother B were basically in heat and it was "go time", she bred them. Probably a backyard breeder move, I know, but it wasn't her fault that her male died and I admit, a big part of me sympathized (and probably an even bigger part of me was struggling with the emotional whiplash at the time).


The individual that owned the stud dog does annual echo and holter tests, but hadn't done genetic testing. His reason was that genetics only suggested risk, not what would actually happen, and preferred to monitor his dog a different way. I personally don't know exactly how I feel about that approach. I guess he also knew his dog was either clear for vWD or a carrier based on the testing from his dog's parents.

Breeder does check for elbows and hips and so does the owner of the stud. All are excellent, good or normal. Parents are clear of DM and all other health issues with the exception of those mentioned above. My puppy contract does state that if I take the puppy to a vet of my choosing within 48 hours of purchase and the vet finds anything life threatening, she will give me a replacement puppy of equal value, free of charge.

If you're serious about going into sports that are high-intensity, I think, as many others have said, good genetics are an absolute must. A dog that's going to be in sports or "active" mode a lot of the time needs to be at its top game genetically. Even dogs that are clear of things like DCM 1 & 2 genetically could end up with problems involving DCM never the less, so to increase the pup's risk of becoming Affected by breeding a sire and dam that both are carriers of DCM 2 seems like irresponsible breeding.

It depends on how much you are paying, but you will likely pay more for a stud dog that has had genetic testing or a breeder that does genetic testing. Depending on the cost, I would be expecting to see an Embark test with the dog's genetic risks. If it's more of a backyard thing...yeah, I wouldn't expect to see much. Shame about that original male clear of DCM and vWD genes died so suddenly so young! Wonder what happened.

An affected puppy would be a huge turn off for me, but a carrier status shouldn't matter if I have no intention to breed, right? Definitely and please enlighten me if I am wrong.

These dogs are not 100% euros. Both mothers are 75% european and 25% american lines. The emergency stud that she found is 100% american show lines, but his mother had a WAC in her titles. I am hoping that is an indication of strong nerves and that the european blood will help with that. Guess we'll see.


I am still curious as to why the world of bite sports has mostly male dogs, if females are better for protection? I'm not saying you're wrong, just curious. And you're right. I probably should stick with Mother A. I would like to read others' opinions too but I don't disagree with you.

The problem with breeding a sire and dam that are both carriers of vWD is that you are risking a 25% Affected puppy. You would just need to be sure that your pup wasn't Affected, or have the breeder agree that if the puppy was Affected, she would take the dog back. I personally would not be worried about a carrier, no. I just wouldn't want to be "stuck" with a puppy for 10-13 years that was Affected by vWD due to a breeding contract not being in my favor.

Female dogs are just more likely (overall) to be protective of a person naturally. I think it has to do with nurturing instincts that a female would have, plus the fact that female Dobes are generally more emotionally in-tune with their owner(s). That being said, an experienced trainer can totally train a male to be every bit as good as if not better than a female Doberman for protection. A well-bred Doberman itself is just protective, so it's not like you're trying to force something that's not there with a male. You're just honing it. This is especially true for European Dobermans, who you probably also see more of it the dog sport world.

I had my heart set on a male for the better part of a year so "switching gears" on my decision is proving to be very challenging.

I understand 100%!! I wasn't sure if I wanted a male or female either, so it was a lot of going back and forth However, I don't think you have to chose between a healthier dog genetically OR the temperament you desire. I would really recommend a different breeder that is more thorough overall, or at least AKC registered (not sure if this one is). As others have said, a lineage line that has the sire and dam (and/or grand sire(s)) doing bite work or PP would be great, too.

 

[fatiguedsuki]

Personally (and just my opinion), by not breeding vWD Carrier to Carrier we make the cone/bottle neck even smaller.

24 yrs ago, I breed Carrier to Carrier, tested the entire litter of 10, and results came back with 6 Clears, 3 Carriers & 1 Affected. So the % they give are just an estimate of averages. Out of that litter, 1 carrier lived to 12 and the affected pup lived to 13 and the rest lived 7-10 yrs being taken by Cancer or something else that we can't test for... I would never breed Carrier to Affected or Affected to Affected.

jmo

Yeah, you might have a point there with the neck becoming even smaller. I retract my earlier statement

If I knew a dog was just a carrier of vWD, I wouldn't sweat it. In the chance that the puppy was Affected, I'd want to have some recourse with the breeder, especially since that genetic test could be run when the puppy was still a puppy.

Good point!!

 

[JanS]

I've also heard that a good share of the dogs that come back affected aren't clinically affected.

 

[Rits]

I've also heard that a good share of the dogs that come back affected aren't clinically affected.

Correct, they aren't. Dobermans have the mild form of vWD and most don't have any issues...

The DCM tests are not indicative of anything right now other than a proper breeder will test for them for the future of this breed. I would not judge a breeder based on them as long as they are done. Nor would I judge a breeder with an affected puppy. If a breeder bred a carrier to an affected, ask why. Their reason may make sense such as if they didn't they'd lose those lines. They would then breed back to a clear.

Really, we should be worried about longevity and temperament. Plus, have all necessary health tests been done? Annual holter and echo are much more important in this breed. Top of the list! There is a bare minimum listed on the OFA. I like to see a few more personally like elbows, liver and kidney.

Browse By Breed | OFA

Browse through breed-specific health screenings. Contact us if you have any questions or need additional information.

ofa.org

 

[StateOfMine]

Wow that is a lot to reply to... lol

Breeder's dogs and stud dogs are all AKC registered. Puppies go home with vaccines, AKC registration, tails docked, dew claws removed, a blanket that smells like siblings and mom, and a food starter bag.

Parents do have hips/elbows evaluated, the genetic embark panel is done or have some other DNA result (GenSol is another company she uses).

Her breeding program looks for healthy individuals that are as unrelated as possible (no shared relatives on the side of the sire or dam visible on the pedigrees). Her goal is to increase genetic diversity, provide healthy dogs and a stable temperament.

My goal when looking for a puppy was to find one that has been bred well, as in his/her COI is as low as possible, a good companion that I enjoy spending time with, but also I want his/her nerves to be strong enough to withstand protection training. I don't expect any dog to physically intervene to protect anyone without training (I know some do, but those are special dogs). A lot of dogs put on a scary show, but almost none will step up to fight a confident human adversary.

I want to be able to go fishing along the river again without my husband (he doesn't care for fishing) or to bars that allow dogs without my husband. He's a great protector, but we like to separate and do our own thing sometimes too. Or even be alone in the house knowing if something happens, my dog is going to back me up and keep an intruder at bay long enough for me to get a gun. Bite sports look like a lot of fun and if opportunity knocked I'd like to try it, but a personal protector is a higher priority.

Anyways, I knew dobermans had the mildest form of vWD but I don't know more than that. Affected doesn't necessarily mean clinically affected? What does a doberman with vWD go through on a daily basis? Do I need to carry some Quickstop (Kwikstop?) with me everywhere I go if I had a dog that was affected? If someone could elaborate further I'd love that.

 

[Kswoodssue]

I can’t offer any advice on the health testing questions, and I know very little about bite sports. While I have had a dog for 99% of the last 65 years, we too have our first Doberman and we too are learning. What I do know is that being a new Doberman owner can be challenging, and a high drive dog bred for bite sports, even more challenging. And no matter how much care you take in selecting the right pup for you, sometimes the genetics does not pan out like you had hoped. That is the challenge of competition. It is always a bit of a gamble, and an expensive one sometimes. In the end, you may gain a wonderful companion who doesn’t look like you thought he would. He might bark, but prefer to make love, not war. There are no guarantees for health or performance. The best way to hedge your bets is to find the very best breeder you can find, listen to experienced folks as above, and get the best trainers money can buy. Good luck!

 

[Ravenbird]

Correct, they aren't. Dobermans have the mild form of vWD and most don't have any issues...

I just want to say that the first Doberman I owned died of tick bites and bled out internally from vWD. At the time they said maybe Ehrlichiosis, but it was a dog that was found abandoned, no one claimed, I took her in as my first dog ever, had her spayed and she bled out when spayed, almost died, had heart worms, almost didn't make it through treatment, but did, then a year later died of bleeding out internally "from tick bites". I knew nothing about vWD at the time, but looking back (this was 1980's) it screams vWD affected. I just want to say that if I knew a dog was potentially going to be affected by this bleeding disease it would be an immediate NO. Times and medicine have changed but I watched this dog suffer through every medical procedure that involved her blood flow struggle. Never again. That's what tests are for is prevention of shit like this.

 

[Ravenbird]

Affected doesn't necessarily mean clinically affected? What does a doberman with vWD go through on a daily basis? Do I need to carry some Quickstop (Kwikstop?) with me everywhere I go if I had a dog that was affected? If someone could elaborate further I'd love that.

Most likely no. Surgery is the biggest risk. As I said in my post above, my first dog, 1980's, I knew little and the vets evidently couldn't put 2 + 2 together either. But with DNA now available, I would absolutely not buy a puppy that was affected and with so many choices of sires - literally hundreds of intact Dobeman males out there for stud: show, working, backyard whatever, you might choose 2 or 3 or 4 as good matches for your bitch, why not use carrier + carrier as a way to narrow down your choices? Your bitch is a carrier, just choose a clear dog. That's simple. It's such a no brainer to me after loving with all my heart my very first dog struggle through so much and die within two years of owning her, being told it was "tick fever" and only learn years later that it was most likely a genetic disease that can now be prevented? Sorry, I'm just not into putting any other first time Doberman owner through that, much less the dog.

also I want his/her nerves to be strong enough to withstand protection training. I don't expect any dog to physically intervene to protect anyone without training (I know some do, but those are special dogs). A lot of dogs put on a scary show, but almost none will step up to fight a confident human adversary.

This is 100% true and that's what titles prove. Any puppy will bite a tug and hang on to a flirt pole rag, but it's not until older and well into training that pressure is added: the decoy comes at them, they aren't running away, they get in the dogs face and push hard to make the dog back down. Personal Protection is extremely hard on nerves, very few Dobermans can take the kind of pressure that is presented there. IGP is more orderly, but pressure is still used the higher they go in trials. If the lines of this litter are not titled in PP or IGP or Ringsport, you have no genetic proof that your puppy can handle pressure. Volaird tests can help divide the litter into personality traits and I'm very much for those puppy tests to help put them in the proper homes. But strong titles in the pedigree of what you want your puppy to do as an adult, that's where you get a protection dog.

Again - I want you to get the puppy of your dreams - not trying to discourage you, just let you know the options and choices.